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Sounsyy · **06-03-2015, 08:16 PM**

I think your character is an interesting approach, so I say go for it, but as others have said do prepare for a lot of backlash or scrutinizing of your character. As it is rather a difficult approach.

Warren posed some good questions to think about. I just wanted to bring one lore tidbit up in addition to all that. Primals, regardless of whether they are deities worshiped by a tribe (Ifrit, Ramuh, Leviathan, etc) or a reincarnation of some forgotten legend of times past (Bahamut, Shiva, King Moggle Mog, Phoenix, etc) a few things have to be in place for the Primal to persist.

1) Worship or fervent prayer to the deity or legend - which you've already established in your backstory.

2) Enough crystals to fully compose a corporeal form in the Physical Plane. The larger and more powerful the Primal, the more crystals are required. As you're a Lalafell, a smaller amount of crystals could likely create the form, however, a small amount of crystals will also ultimately make for a very weak primal.

3) Lastly, (and most tricky) because Primals do not belong on this Physical Plane, they must constantly absorb large amounts of aether from the Lifestream in order to persist. This is what I think Warren was getting at with the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. So long as your character remains summoned, she is effectively killing the planet. Which is why Primal summonings are dealt with swiftly by Scion, Garlean, and Grand Company alike.

Even though Ramuh was a "benevolent" Primal, he was still a danger to the planet so long as he existed in our Plane, which is why he had to go. This is the primary purpose of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn since their inception organization - The Circle of Knowing. So saying they overlooked a Primal summoning of any kind, even by a small faction, is a bit farfetched. Especially considering Iceheart's band of heretics could also be considered a small faction.

So just be prepared for that. If a character can get past their disbelief or their fear of tempering, the next logical course of action would be to try to kill your character.

Viola · **06-03-2015, 08:32 PM**

(06-03-2015, 08:16 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I think your character is an interesting approach, so I say go for it, but as others have said do prepare for a lot of backlash or scrutinizing of your character. As it is rather a difficult approach.

Warren posed some good questions to think about. I just wanted to bring one lore tidbit up in addition to all that. Primals, regardless of whether they are deities worshiped by a tribe (Ifrit, Ramuh, Leviathan, etc) or a reincarnation of some forgotten legend of times past (Bahamut, Shiva, King Moggle Mog, Phoenix, etc) a few things have to be in place for the Primal to persist.

1) Worship or fervent prayer to the deity or legend - which you've already established in your backstory.

2) Enough crystals to fully compose a corporeal form in the Physical Plane. The larger and more powerful the Primal, the more crystals are required. As you're a Lalafell, a smaller amount of crystals could likely create the form, however, a small amount of crystals will also ultimately make for a very weak primal.

3) Lastly, (and most tricky) because Primals do not belong on this Physical Plane, they must constantly absorb large amounts of aether from the Lifestream in order to persist. This is what I think Warren was getting at with the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. So long as your character remains summoned, they are effectively killing the planet. Which is why Primal summonings are dealt with swiftly by Scion, Garlean, and Grand Company alike.

Even though Ramuh was a "benevolent" Primal, he was still a danger to the planet so long as he existed in our Plane, which is why he had to go. This is the primary purpose of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn since their inception organization - The Circle of Knowing. So saying they overlooked a Primal summoning of any kind, even by a small faction, is a bit farfetched. Especially considering Iceheart's band of heretics could also be considered a small faction.

So just be prepared for that. If a character can get past their disbelief or their fear of tempering, the next logical course of action would be to try to kill your character.

to answer number 3; Iceheart acted as the catalyst for Shiva. With that said, upon Shiva's "death", Iceheart remained. I wonder what happened if the fervant prayer was used on one who was willing to sacrifice his or her "soul" for the Primal to use as a corporeal body.

3b) Remember, Enkidu was also a Primal (I...Think, I forgot. You can completely correct me if I'm wrong) in the Hildebrand scenarios and he(she?) didn't need crystals. ...To my knoweldge.

Also; Greg's "final" form. Also, is Diabolos considered a Primal in Eorzean lore?

3c) As stated, Memenu's unique in that she cannot Temper others, so her "sphere" of influence will only grow by those who truly wish to believe in her. (I primarily chose to make this ability impossible as to not have any sort of "power" abuse. tldr; ability removed because generally it's OP.).

3d) Yes, killing Memenu can pose a very real concern. Her being in a lalafell form is also what she is described of in legends and ancient texts.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-03-2015, 08:57 PM**

(06-03-2015, 08:32 PM)Memenu Wrote:
(06-03-2015, 08:16 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I think your character is an interesting approach, so I say go for it, but as others have said do prepare for a lot of backlash or scrutinizing of your character. As it is rather a difficult approach.

Warren posed some good questions to think about. I just wanted to bring one lore tidbit up in addition to all that. Primals, regardless of whether they are deities worshiped by a tribe (Ifrit, Ramuh, Leviathan, etc) or a reincarnation of some forgotten legend of times past (Bahamut, Shiva, King Moggle Mog, Phoenix, etc) a few things have to be in place for the Primal to persist.

1) Worship or fervent prayer to the deity or legend - which you've already established in your backstory.

2) Enough crystals to fully compose a corporeal form in the Physical Plane. The larger and more powerful the Primal, the more crystals are required. As you're a Lalafell, a smaller amount of crystals could likely create the form, however, a small amount of crystals will also ultimately make for a very weak primal.

3) Lastly, (and most tricky) because Primals do not belong on this Physical Plane, they must constantly absorb large amounts of aether from the Lifestream in order to persist. This is what I think Warren was getting at with the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. So long as your character remains summoned, they are effectively killing the planet. Which is why Primal summonings are dealt with swiftly by Scion, Garlean, and Grand Company alike.

Even though Ramuh was a "benevolent" Primal, he was still a danger to the planet so long as he existed in our Plane, which is why he had to go. This is the primary purpose of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn since their inception organization - The Circle of Knowing. So saying they overlooked a Primal summoning of any kind, even by a small faction, is a bit farfetched. Especially considering Iceheart's band of heretics could also be considered a small faction.

So just be prepared for that. If a character can get past their disbelief or their fear of tempering, the next logical course of action would be to try to kill your character.

to answer number 3; Iceheart acted as the catalyst for Shiva. With that said, upon Shiva's "death", Iceheart remained. I wonder what happened if the fervant prayer was used on one who was willing to sacrifice his or her "soul" for the Primal to use as a corporeal body.

3b) Remember, Enkidu was also a Primal (I...Think, I forgot. You can completely correct me if I'm wrong) in the Hildebrand scenarios and he(she?) didn't need crystals. ...To my knoweldge.

Also; Greg's "final" form. Also, is Diabolos considered a Primal in Eorzean lore?

3c) As stated, Memenu's unique in that she cannot Temper others, so her "sphere" of influence will only grow by those who truly wish to believe in her. (I primarily chose to make this ability impossible as to not have any sort of "power" abuse. tldr; ability removed because generally it's OP.).

3d) Yes, killing Memenu can pose a very real concern. Her being in a lalafell form is also what she is described of in legends and ancient texts.

Gilgamesh was leaning on a crate of Crystals when he summoned Enkidu, the crystals then promptly vanished.

Diabolos is a Voidsent, not a Primal.

Warren Castille · **06-03-2015, 09:03 PM**

Additionally, Shiva was only Shiva for a few moments, and then that power was lost. It's true she does open up an interesting idea for superforms, basically, but access to her Primal-granted powers was shortlived at best, and this is even with (presumably) the entire heretic faction and part of the dravanians (again, presumably) believing in her.

Viola · **06-03-2015, 09:12 PM**

(06-03-2015, 08:57 PM)Nako Wrote: Gilgamesh was leaning on a crate of Crystals when he summoned Enkidu, the crystals then promptly vanished.

Diabolos is a Voidsent, not a Primal.

Well, we know Bahamut was trapped in a moon,

Odin is actually his sword

And thank you for correcting me.

(06-03-2015, 09:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Additionally, Shiva was only Shiva for a few moments, and then that power was lost. It's true she does open up an interesting idea for superforms, basically, but access to her Primal-granted powers was shortlived at best, and this is even with (presumably) the entire heretic faction and part of the dravanians (again, presumably) believing in her.

Which opens up the issue of outside of being an angry midget, what is Memenu's true form?

Gegenji · **06-03-2015, 09:25 PM**

(06-03-2015, 09:12 PM)Memenu Wrote: Which opens up the issue of outside of being an angry midget, what is Memenu's true form?

A smaller, angrier midget.

Sounsyy · **06-03-2015, 09:26 PM**

(06-03-2015, 08:32 PM)Memenu Wrote: 3b) Remember, Enkidu was also a Primal (I...Think, I forgot. You can completely correct me if I'm wrong) in the Hildebrand scenarios and he(she?) didn't need crystals. ...To my knoweldge.

Also; Greg's "final" form. Also, is Diabolos considered a Primal in Eorzean lore?

Enkidu is another example of a "Primal" that was a reincarnation of a real individual. Like Moggle Mog or Shiva. Enkidu was Gilgamesh's companion, but that companion was lost, so the memory of that companion reincarnated "Enkidu" as a Primal when Gilgamesh sat on a large stack of crystal-carrying crates and wished his friend would return to him. So, yep, crystals were used in the making of this Primal. ^^

And Diabolos is not a Primal in XIV's lore. He's a Voidsent King summoned during the War of the Magi and imprisoned by the Magi of Amdapor.

(06-03-2015, 08:32 PM)Memenu Wrote: 3c) As stated, Memenu's unique in that she cannot Temper others, so her "sphere" of influence will only grow by those who truly wish to believe in her. (I primarily chose to make this ability impossible as to not have any sort of "power" abuse. tldr; ability removed because generally it's OP.).

Tempering is completely purposeful on the Primal's part. They have to actively want to Temper someone, it doesn't just happen on its own. Ifrit scorches his in fire. Leviathan drowns them. Bahamut tempers the soul of the dying before they depart for Thal's realm. Someone has to pick up Zantetsuken for it to temper them. Tempering aside though, the real danger of a Primal is their constant aether drain on the world - which was the concern in bullet #3.

But I have to ask, if your character is a Primal... but doesn't Temper, and it sounds like you're trying to work around the constant aether drain, and isn't actively using their limited lifespan to flatten Garleans (as that's the purpose she was summoned for right?) what is the um point of having her being a Primal? I mean, being a Primal is an interesting concept to play with, but you've essentially eliminated half of what makes a Primal a Primal in order to mingle in day-in-the-life rp and so didn't really leave her with much... Primal-ness? I don't think the tortured Lalafells who summoned her to kill Garleans would be very pleased she's down at the tavern in Ul'dah engaging in idle conversation?

I mean if the justification behind her being a Primal is just because you really wanna RP being a Primal, go for it - but I'd say really go all out and have her be a full fledged primal. Tempering, city-flattening power, constant aether drain, etc. I mean, you say you don't wanna be OP, but that's kinda... the whole point of a Primal? If they weren't OP no one would bother summoning them.

Viola · **06-03-2015, 10:09 PM**

(06-03-2015, 09:25 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-03-2015, 09:12 PM)Memenu Wrote: Which opens up the issue of outside of being an angry midget, what is Memenu's true form?
A smaller, angrier midget.

I legit giggled. 7/10 laugh, 8/10 because lasting smile.

(06-03-2015, 09:26 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(06-03-2015, 08:32 PM)Memenu Wrote: 3b) Remember, Enkidu was also a Primal (I...Think, I forgot. You can completely correct me if I'm wrong) in the Hildebrand scenarios and he(she?) didn't need crystals. ...To my knoweldge.

Also; Greg's "final" form. Also, is Diabolos considered a Primal in Eorzean lore?

Enkidu is another example of a "Primal" that was a reincarnation of a real individual. Like Moggle Mog or Shiva. Enkidu was Gilgamesh's companion, but that companion was lost, so the memory of that companion reincarnated "Enkidu" as a Primal when Gilgamesh sat on a large stack of crystal-carrying crates and wished his friend would return to him. So, yep, crystals were used in the making of this Primal. ^^

And Diabolos is not a Primal in XIV's lore. He's a Voidsent King summoned during the War of the Magi and imprisoned by the Magi of Amdapor.

(06-03-2015, 08:32 PM)Memenu Wrote: 3c) As stated, Memenu's unique in that she cannot Temper others, so her "sphere" of influence will only grow by those who truly wish to believe in her. (I primarily chose to make this ability impossible as to not have any sort of "power" abuse. tldr; ability removed because generally it's OP.).

Tempering is completely purposeful on the Primal's part. They have to actively want to Temper someone, it doesn't just happen on its own. Ifrit scorches his in fire. Leviathan drowns them. Bahamut tempers the soul of the dying before they depart for Thal's realm. Someone has to pick up Zantetsuken for it to temper them. Tempering aside though, the real danger of a Primal is their constant aether drain on the world - which was the concern in bullet #3.

But I have to ask, if your character is a Primal... but doesn't Temper, and it sounds like you're trying to work around the constant aether drain, and isn't actively using their limited lifespan to flatten Garleans (as that's the purpose she was summoned for right?) what is the um point of having her being a Primal? I mean, being a Primal is an interesting concept to play with, but you've essentially eliminated half of what makes a Primal a Primal in order to mingle in day-in-the-life rp and so didn't really leave her with much... Primal-ness? I don't think the tortured Lalafells who summoned her to kill Garleans would be very pleased she's down at the tavern in Ul'dah engaging in idle conversation?

I mean if the justification behind her being a Primal is just because you really wanna RP being a Primal, go for it - but I'd say really go all out and have her be a full fledged primal. Tempering, city-flattening power, constant aether drain, etc. I mean, you say you don't wanna be OP, but that's kinda... the whole point of a Primal? If they weren't OP no one would bother summoning them.

Tempering itself is more a balance concern than an actual lore concern. Removing the ability just makes it easier to balance Memenu as a character. Just in case an RP battle ever comes up. "Removing the rattle from the baby" so to speak.

In example; Memenu is weakened enough to be finished off, oh look, she just tempered half the damn city and now damn near close to full power. Again. It's boring, it's annoying, and it's more overpowered than anything else.

The group summoned her to help them against not only their oppressors, but the oppressors of other Lalafell. She can facepunch Garlean after Garlean, but her corporeal form still needs rest. Even more so if her body is a vessel to contain her essence. (From a lore standpoint, I don't know if this is even possible. It's neither hinted nor denied. However, if a focus can be used to amplify the power of a Primal, I don't see it being an issue for one to sacrifice their very soul to use their body as a vessel for its power.)

I don't know how Bahamut works other than being an Elder Primal, I haven't gotten through second coil, so I know very little about him(her? It?). I'd also rather ask questions than assume things that are wrong.

Her being in the form that she is allows for open-endedness in that she's not a forced antagonist. She can always end up helpingÂ the Scions just because they have a common ground. Sure the Scions will probably be keeping a very close eye on what very much a loose cannon.Â

Well, the thing is, since Moggle Mog isn't a Primal, neither is she. However; I don't see any real harm letting herself believe she is. -shrugs-

The points you bring up are excellent questions; questions I wouldn't have thought of myself, but are very valuable to think within the lore limits of both the game and the lore of the world itself.

Caspar · **06-03-2015, 10:13 PM**

I think it's funny your character's name is two syllables away from another who claimed to be a Primal...

Well, in any case, welcome. Nice to see another Lala who isn't a helpless merchant or magical waif, even if your approach is... unusual, to say the least.

Viola · **06-03-2015, 10:16 PM**

(06-03-2015, 10:13 PM)Caspar Wrote: I think it's funny your character's name is two syllables away from another who claimed to be a Primal...

...Really?

Has to be a coincidence. The name is also a result of the name generator squeenix released back before P4 beta.

Either way, thank you for for dropping into the thread.

Warren Castille · **06-03-2015, 10:43 PM**

It dawns on me that, at an uninformed glance, you could accomplish most of what you're looking for simply by playing the actual reborn reincarnation of a distant hero without dabbling in the P-word. This eliminates all of the hoops and challenges, and while it removes the Primal word from your template, it makes it a lot less messy to work into functional canon and, more importantly from a roleplay perspective, other people's head-canons and game world.

Golden rule as ever is to write what you like to write. We're all playing pretend here anyway.

Viola · **06-03-2015, 10:45 PM**

(06-03-2015, 10:43 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: It dawns on me that, at an uninformed glance, you could accomplish most of what you're looking for simply by playing the actual reborn reincarnation of a distant hero without dabbling in the P-word. This eliminates all of the hoops and challenges, and while it removes the Primal word from your template, it makes it a lot less messy to work into functional canon and, more importantly from a roleplay perspective, other people's head-canons and game world.

Golden rule as ever is to write what you like to write. We're all playing pretend here anyway.

Well, technically, since Moggle Mog isn't a primal, neither is Memenu as they were both created using the same means. They're more Guardians than anything else.

However, I understand that yes, it probably would be easier and there'd be a lot less "red tape" so to speak to go through and other such hurdles.

Though, sometimes it's best to try and take the trecherous path, as we may become more enlightened than if we took the safer path.

Warren Castille · **06-03-2015, 10:46 PM**

Replace "primal" with "semi-deity of supernatural undying powers." The intent is the functionally the same.

Viola · **06-03-2015, 10:47 PM**

(06-03-2015, 10:46 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Replace "primal" with "semi-deity of supernatural undying powers." The intent is the functionally the same.

...Wouldn't that mean she'd be unkillable?

(tldr reading comprehension issues)

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **06-03-2015, 10:55 PM**

I feel like I should throw my Garlean-experiment-gone-wrong in her direction. Only primal-ish tendencies. Franz just wants the aether. (Although IC, he's got no idea what exactly is wrong with him. Think.....ultima-weapon aether stealing, but without the abilities)

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A New Primal Approaches

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes