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Aduu Avagnar · **06-09-2015, 03:52 PM**

What if, by flooding the world, and thus ending the mage war, it was the quickest way to heal the damage done. People stopped using magic, and it was forgotten/fell out of practice.

If they had turned off the white magic, then there still would have been the people using black magic. This point appears to be being overlooked. By removing both sides of the equation, there was nothing then drawing upon the earth for power.

Melkire · **06-09-2015, 03:58 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Intaki Wrote: I think it would be more appropriate to say they pick and choose who to teach Succor to. Because as the history of the world itself shows once that knowledge leaves the Elementals proverbial lips it is beyond their control what gets done with it.

As far as I am aware the White Mages still learned from the Elementals in the old days. But unlike the Padjal they spread that knowledge far and wide.

(06-09-2015, 03:45 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:55 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I honestly just don't believe the Elementals wouldn't know if someone accessed the Succor without their permission. They have such tight control on it, it just doesn't make sense they wouldn't know.
"Would they know" is an interesting question. But "can they do anything about it other than throw a violent tantrum" appears to be largely answered by existing lore: no, they can't.

I'm certainly open to being proven wrong, but if the Elementals can just flip a switch and turn off the Succor at will, and if existing White Mages can not bring more mages into the fold, it calls into question all of the history and actions taken in regard to the subject.

Find myself agreeing with this, given my impressions of the portions of the WHM job quests I've experienced and from lore that folks have posted on these forums over the past year and more.

Elementals, from what I understand, don't have ultimate control over Succor. Their "permission" to use it merely amounts to allowing the knowledge of how to access and how to use Succor to disseminate. If that wasn't the case, I don't see how or why they would have allowed to War of the Magi to go on as long as it did.

The Padjal serve in a "middle-man" capacity, having been created to safeguard said knowledge while practicing White Magic when and where it is required.

V'aleera · **06-09-2015, 04:03 PM**

(06-09-2015, 03:52 PM)Nako Wrote: What if, by flooding the world, and thus ending the mage war, it was the quickest way to heal the damage done. People stopped using magic, and it was forgotten/fell out of practice.

But then why did they go to such great lengths to hide Amdapor and all of its surviving knowledge away? If they could just take White Magic away on a whim, what would it matter if that civilization was later discovered and learned from?

Aduu Avagnar · **06-09-2015, 04:14 PM**

(06-09-2015, 04:03 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 03:52 PM)Nako Wrote: What if, by flooding the world, and thus ending the mage war, it was the quickest way to heal the damage done. People stopped using magic, and it was forgotten/fell out of practice.
But then why did they go to such great lengths to hide Amdapor and all of its surviving knowledge away? If they could just take White Magic away on a whim, what would it matter if that civilization was later discovered and learned from?

How does the saying go, better to prevent than to cure?

I don't think they have the ability to take it away on a whim, rather if one is identified as using it without their say so, they will try and hunt them down and remove them.

Martiallais · **06-09-2015, 04:15 PM**

(06-09-2015, 04:03 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 03:52 PM)Nako Wrote: What if, by flooding the world, and thus ending the mage war, it was the quickest way to heal the damage done. People stopped using magic, and it was forgotten/fell out of practice.
But then why did they go to such great lengths to hide Amdapor and all of its surviving knowledge away? If they could just take White Magic away on a whim, what would it matter if that civilization was later discovered and learned from?

Not having a single horse in this race, my uneducated guess would be making a pretty HUGE example. Typically, if you make a big enough example once you never have to do so again.

V'aleera · **06-09-2015, 04:28 PM**

(06-09-2015, 04:15 PM)Zarek Wrote: Not having a single horse in this race, my uneducated guess would be making a pretty HUGE example. Typically, if you make a big enough example once you never have to do so again.

How are they making an example when they tried to wipe out every trace that it ever happened in the first place?

And in response to Nako: I don't think anyone is contesting the capability of the Elementals to go out and inflict their will via force. The specific point of contention is whether or not they have direct, total control of the art of magic that is Succor.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-09-2015, 04:34 PM**

(06-09-2015, 04:28 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 04:15 PM)Zarek Wrote: Not having a single horse in this race, my uneducated guess would be making a pretty HUGE example. Typically, if you make a big enough example once you never have to do so again.
How are they making an example when they tried to wipe out every trace that it ever happened in the first place?

And in response to Nako: I don't think anyone is contesting the capability of the Elementals to go out and inflict their will via force. The specific point of contention is whether or not they have direct, total control of the art of magic that is Succor.

Which I also put my 2c to, and stated that I don't believe they have the ability to take it away at a whim. To expand, I believe they gifted the knowledge that they hid away to the Padjal, to safe guard,as there was a need for it. The Padjal are then the final arbiters over who learns it, and have stated, until the WoL shows up, that no non-padjal should learn it, due to the fact that they were entrusted it by the elementals.

ArmachiA · **06-09-2015, 04:43 PM**

Well, whether they can take it away themselves or just have a mortal/hearer do it for them wasn't my original point, my original point was accessing the Succor without their permission will get them to try to stop you and would definitely get Gridania to stop you - making an unapproved White Mage highly unlikely. But we're so far away from that point right now.

Personally, it's not defined in lore and I don't let it define who I interact with (There are also plenty of people in my guild who disagree with my assessment of the Elementals themselves), it's just something I think they might be able to do. They may not be able to, which would explain why they have such tight control over who can access the Succor or not, because once they hand it over they can't take it away, and I'm okay with that.

Sounsyy · **06-09-2015, 05:52 PM**

(06-08-2015, 11:30 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 10:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Um... every tree is an Elemental. Every stream, every boulder. They are the world.
They're a forest. One forest. A big forest, sure. If elementals exist outside the Black Shroud, they haven't exhibited totalitarian tendencies that their exceptional Shroud brethren have. They haven't even exhibited any signs of sympathy or alliance to the Black Shroud elementals.

Not one forest. All forests. Every tree. Every stone. Every stream is an Elemental. They are Nature incarnate.

Waldew Wrote:Waldew: Listen, adventurer, to the rustling leaves, the flowing rivers- to the very pulse of this land. We conjurers of Stillglade Fane interpret these whispers of the Elementals and convey them to the people of Gridania.

The Call of Nature Wrote:Ingram: Put your ear to the Twelveswood, sister, and listen with all your being. Know - not fear - know that the Elementals are there. And when you feel that it is they that comprise the life that flows through us all, you will begin to hear their whispers.

Good Knight, Sweet Dreams Wrote:Soileine: Perhaps it was the Elementals within the knight's metals whose voices he heard.

Seeds of Initiative Wrote:Raya-O-Senna: Now, these misbehaving Elementals would have long been pacified, but for the fact that most incidents transpire outside the Twelveswood. I am duty-bound to the forest, you see, and cannot attend to the matter, while Stillglade Fane has not the manpower to spare at present for an undertaking beyond our borders. But you, Sounsyy - you may do what we Gridanians cannot. So I bid you journey forth to quell the keening of the Elementals throughout Eorzea.

And there is a reason Elementals from outside the Black Shroud cannot or choose not to materialize. They do not have the protection of the Hedge. Despite their power, they can be killed by man. So they do not reveal themselves outside of where they are protected.

Dendrological Duties Wrote:Soileine: Elementals abound in the Twelveswood around Gridania. Unto them falls the task of protecting the forest. And unto us falls the task of protecting them. To that end, we have laid the Hedge - a magical barrier formed by our order and the Elementals that serves to turn away outside evils. Those who would breach it invite our vengeance. We are the conjurers - intermediaries of nature and man. Our place is between Gridanians and the Elementals. The majority of our citizenry are deaf to the forest's whispers. Yet all feel the presence of the Elementals, as surely as they feel hot and cold.

(06-08-2015, 11:30 PM)Intaki Wrote: Mortals already put the elementals under threat before; the elementals were so terrified they felt the need to flood the whole place clean. And mortals did that without even meaning to!

Imagine if you will a legion of Black Mages and White Mages with stolen succor. Then imagine that these mages want something from the elementals and threaten to aggressively and specifically rip the life and aether out of the Black Shroud if they don't get what they want.

Thousands upon thousands of mortals drained Hydaelyn of all Her aether over the course of several years, decades, perhaps even a century. The War of the Magi lasted years before the Elementals felt threatened enough by it to flood the world.

So... when you ask me to imagine a legion of Black Mages and White Mages, I wonder where this legion is coming from? Black Magic is forgotten and outlawed. Only a half a dozen men and beastmen practice it in some small capacity. Ququruka spent 120 years doing nothing but studying Black Magic and his abilities paled in comparison to some of the feats of the 5th Astral Magi. You think casting flare takes up a lot of aether... imagine bringing an entire mountain to life. Imagine the aether required to pluck a star from the heavens. These were the feats of the 5th Astral Magi.

Now multiply these feats by thousands and thousands of mages around Eorzea. White Mages, Black Mages, Scholars, Faeries... You think we're ever going to see those kinds of numbers again? No. Never. These magicks are forgotten and forbidden for a reason. Even if you held a massive seminar on Black Magic and didn't get thrown in jail or killed, you would never again achieve the number of magi as there were 1,600 years ago.

And as for White Mages... a magic that until 5 years ago existed in complete and total secret in the hands of 6 families of Padjal - a race created specifically by the Elementals to guard Succor. You think the Padjal are going to turn on the Elementals? Even consider someone with succor to turn on the Elementals. No way. So this "legion" you're theorizing is never going to happen. So you're left with a sad group of individuals trying to take on Nature. All of Nature. The world. You need a lot bigger stick than anyone is ever going to possess. And for what purpose are you trying to threaten NATURE? I don't understand? What did the Elementals do that even makes you or this fictitious legion want to threaten the very lifeblood of the world in which they live in? Yes, let's kill every tree in the entire world because I don't want to play by the Elemental's rules in their own home.

(06-09-2015, 07:17 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Much of 1.0 was officially retconned and dusted up under the rug. If it is not mention in 2.0, it's not of importance. If it does get mentioned, then sure, I'll change my mind, but until that point, it's an exercise in futility and expecting the community to know about it, much less actually give any thought or regard to matter, is frankly absurd.

"Officially"? Um, I've been playing this game since launch in 2010 and I can tell you I haven't seen a single bit of lore retconned. Mechanics, yes. Lore, no. Have some things changed over the course of 5 years and a calamitous event? Most certainly, but wiped from existence, no.

Secondly, I don't "expect" the community to know about it, especially if they've never played 1.0. ...But that's why I'm here offering the 1.0 lore for people who ask. There are some answers and events that are not explored in 2.0 because they were in the past. If someone asks how Kan-E-Senna rose to power in Gridania and replaced E-Sumi-Yan as Elder Seedseer and leader of Gridania... the answer isn't in 2.0. But it is expressed in 1.0.

The lore is there. And more often than not, it is more explicit and concise than any lore that's come out in 2.0. The Sil'dihn Aquaducts beneath Ul'dah from 2.55- those were from 1.0! 1.0 players knew they were down there, even though they only recently got re-revealed in 2.0. You know why Wood Wailers wear masks? 2.0 doesn't tell you, but 1.0 informs us that the masks absorb Woodsin in place of the wearer, so a Wailer doesn't become a Wildling when they kill something in the Wood. These are just a few of countless examples.

1.0 had a lot of really bad things in it, but its story and lore were not among those bad things.

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Some Jobs actually use the Soul Crystal to pass on the knowledge of the skills involved in the Job. Â White Mage is not one of them.

Actually, the argument could go either way for the soulstone.

Seeds of Initiative Wrote:Raya-O-Senna: And, as you act in my name, I hereby permit you the use of white magic. <Player Character begins to glow.> Take here this linkpearl and Soul of the White Mage. The latter is an ancient crystal imbued with the light of succor - by its power, the forbidden art will be yours to wield, albeit within the bounds of your skill as a conjurer.

To walk the path of the white mage is to devote oneself to the salving of hurts and the lifting of misery - ours is the hand that proffers comfort. Should it every come to light that you have used your powers for less virtuous ends, be forewarned you will promptly be dispossessed of the crystal and summarily punished.

Heart of the Forest Wrote:A-Towa-Cant: I lived a long and fruitful life. But when I drew my last breath in O'Ghomoro that day, I did so with one profound regret- that I would pass from this realm without finding a worthy inheritor to bequeath my knowledge in full. My spirit left my lifeless body to abide in this soul crystal, with the hope that one day it would find its way into the hands of my successor. From the moment you took my crystal in hand, I knew. Padjal or no, I had at long last found one to whom I could truly pass on my knowledge.

V'aleera · **06-09-2015, 07:27 PM**

I'm aware that elementals exist beyond the Shroud; I acknowledged that fact at some point a while ago. The majority of my comments have been directed toward the Black Shroud elementals in particular as they are the only elementals that seem particularly bent toward setting and enforcing policy.

My proposed hypothetical was more of a thought exercise than a proposition on what may occur in the near future. The gist of my point in voicing that particular line of thought is that the elementals have remained static while the mortals progress.

And I feel like by now it should go without saying, but "never" has proven to be a very dangerous word in Eorzea. Most of the characters we've seen who follow the mantra of "never" tend to have a poor record of survival.

TheLastCandle · **06-09-2015, 07:46 PM**

(06-09-2015, 07:27 PM)Intaki Wrote: I'm aware that elementals exist beyond the Shroud; I acknowledged that fact at some point a while ago. The majority of my comments have been directed toward the Black Shroud elementals in particular as they are the only elementals that seem particularly bent toward setting and enforcing policy.

Your argument earlier didn't seem to acknowledge it.

(06-08-2015, 11:30 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 10:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Um... every tree is an Elemental. Every stream, every boulder. They are the world.
They're a forest. One forest. A big forest, sure. If elementals exist outside the Black Shroud, they haven't exhibited totalitarian tendencies that their exceptional Shroud brethren have. They haven't even exhibited any signs of sympathy or alliance to the Black Shroud elementals.

But props for doing so now.

Quote:My proposed hypothetical was more of a thought exercise than a proposition on what may occur in the near future. The gist of my point in voicing that particular line of thought is that the elementals have remained static while the mortals progress.

And I feel like by now it should go without saying, but "never" has proven to be a very dangerous word in Eorzea. Most of the characters we've seen who follow the mantra of "never" tend to have a poor record of survival.

The thing is, this is a cycle of destruction and rebirth, Umbral and Astral, that the Elementals have seen a number of times before. Granted, this time could be different. The Ascians certainly seem to think so. But still, I'm of the mind that we're due some real Greenwrath in the future. We got to see a little of it in 1.0, but I wouldn't be surprised if things continue to escalate in Eorzea to the point where the Ents will march the Elementals will have their fury upon them. And even in their diminished state, in the White Mage job quest, it took the MC, Raya-O-Senna, A-Ruhn-Senna, and the spirit of A-Towa-Cant to Quiet just the Guardian Tree.

Sin · **06-09-2015, 08:46 PM**

I think it's clear to me that if Elementals could simply turn off succor a lot of their actions wouldn't make full sense. Certainly, the new nefarious ways of obtaining White Magic mentioned in Las Vegas would be irrelevant since you know even if you get it through your nefarious brilliance... first elemental that spots you is going to turn it off. No, I think they take a much more hand's on approach to policing the use of Succor by hiding the art away, being extremely selective of the practitioners, and slaying whoever doesn't follow the rules to the letter.

I don't think we're due for some large scale Elemental's go HAM greenwrath in the future simply because of the aforementioned weakening due to the Calamity. They're in no position to rage. Unless you mean the very far future... like in seven expansions.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-09-2015, 09:03 PM**

(06-09-2015, 08:46 PM)Sin Wrote: I think it's clear to me that if Elementals could simply turn off succor a lot of their actions wouldn't make full sense. Certainly, the new nefarious ways of obtaining White Magic mentioned in Las Vegas would be irrelevant since you know even if you get it through your nefarious brilliance... first elemental that spots you is going to turn it off. No, I think they take a much more hand's on approach to policing the use of Succor by hiding the art away, being extremely selective of the practitioners, and slaying whoever doesn't follow the rules to the letter.

I don't think we're due for some large scale Elemental's go HAM greenwrath in the future simply because of the aforementioned weakening due to the Calamity. They're in no position to rage. Unless you mean the very far future... like in seven expansions.

Do remember there is a reason why it is/was taking so long for the land to recover from the calamity. And if you've completed Coil, then the aftermath of that should speed things up considerably.

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ArmachiA · **06-09-2015, 09:10 PM**

Would be kind of fun though if one of the expansions was the Elementals regaining their power and then turning on the mortals.

Greenwrath, Greenwrath everywhere.

LiadansWhisper · **06-10-2015, 01:25 PM**

(06-09-2015, 05:52 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Actually, the argument could go either way for the soulstone.

Seeds of Initiative Wrote:Raya-O-Senna: And, as you act in my name, I hereby permit you the use of white magic. <Player Character begins to glow.> Take here this linkpearl and Soul of the White Mage. The latter is an ancient crystal imbued with the light of succor - by its power, the forbidden art will be yours to wield, albeit within the bounds of your skill as a conjurer.

To walk the path of the white mage is to devote oneself to the salving of hurts and the lifting of misery - ours is the hand that proffers comfort. Should it every come to light that you have used your powers for less virtuous ends, be forewarned you will promptly be dispossessed of the crystal and summarily punished.

Heart of the Forest Wrote:A-Towa-Cant: I lived a long and fruitful life. But when I drew my last breath in O'Ghomoro that day, I did so with one profound regret- that I would pass from this realm without finding a worthy inheritor to bequeath my knowledge in full. My spirit left my lifeless body to abide in this soul crystal, with the hope that one day it would find its way into the hands of my successor. From the moment you took my crystal in hand, I knew. Padjal or no, I had at long last found one to whom I could truly pass on my knowledge.

I had forgotten about that part of the quest (haven't had a chance to go back and review the cutscenes). I stand corrected on that point. Â With that said, I seem to recall that Raya-O-Senna was teaching us the abilities we were picking up as White Mages as we went along? Or am I completely misremembering it at this point?

Altho I suppose that you could characterize it as "you have access to succor and can do other things not mentioned in game mechanics with it." Â Which would be a bit closer to an Awakened Mage from WW's MtA setting.

(06-09-2015, 09:10 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: Would be kind of fun though if one of the expansions was the Elementals regaining their power and then turning on the mortals.

Greenwrath, Greenwrath everywhere.

I think it sounds amazing. Â Don't give me ideas.Â Tongue

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