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Cailean Lockwood · **06-24-2015, 05:15 AM**

(06-24-2015, 05:08 AM)AquiziTC Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 03:40 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: It's very straightforward with Male/Male relationships, both sides know what they want and just say it.

I've always found this interesting on a personal level, noticing how this works since I was a wee queer lad just learning of the world of gay clubs and the like. I know of many relationships that turned out to be stable, wonderful, long-lasting, and committed that started out as "oh we met at a club/bar/party" which is shorthand for "we were drunk, thought each other hot, slept together, and found out we liked each other."

I mean of COURSE this happens with straight men and women, too. It's just slightly funny to me how often it seemed to happen when I was younger. I'm a bit too old to care about the scene these days to keep tabs on it.

On a more serious note, like... it's -slightly- offensive to read some of the stuff. "The only reason this gets brought up is to bang" (paraphrasing). Yes and no? I mean for some people sure, and some others no. For me it's a little deeper than that? I mean, look if I wanted to RP for sex I know of places I can go do that, easily. But my MMO characters have ALWAYS been different than that. They've always started as just "I like the look of this person and this class," and then they have grown from there into REAL characters with motivations and a life, mind, and muse of their own. I immerse myself in them and enjoy playing the game through their eyes and mind.

So I've RP'd a lot of stuff with Tenrilaux, and it didn't even have to all be with other players. It's just him living in Eorzea as an adventurer and some people call him a hero yeah sure whatever but still. Romance RP to me, is an extension of that life. I've done it all ways: explicit, fade to black, heterosexual life-partners (thanks, tvtropes!), forever alone/bachelor, etc. It is probably one of the most interesting ways to get a DIFFERENT kind of character growth, if it's done correctly.

I will never knock anyone's flavor of RP, it's generally not how I work, but like.. being out there as an LGBT player and character is for things beyond just "let's get my junk wet." Granted yes the bearing in THIS world setting is purely for a relationship bent, but that is simply because Eorzea is so open regarding sexuality. Haven't seen much regarding gender fluidity, but that may change over time.

Exactly, thumbs up! Big Grin

Yours Truly · **06-24-2015, 05:16 AM**

"What kind of issues could an LGBT person face in an online game?"

This is a weird example, but... well, WoW's Moon Guard is kind of a weird place.

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So... yeah, it happens, sometimes. I understand why someone would seek out a LGBT-themed community-within-a-community. It's not about isolationism, or being a special snowflake. It's about finding a community of peers who understand you, and won't ever, ever judge you on the basis of your orientation - a safe space. Bigotry and homophobia are still very common, frequently surfacing in both subtle and overt ways. Calling it a "non-issue" is very narrow-minded and naive at best, and outright harmful and dismissive at worst. Your experiences are not someone else's experiences.

Cailean Lockwood · **06-24-2015, 05:19 AM**

(06-24-2015, 05:16 AM)Yours Truly Wrote: "What kind of issues could an LGBT person face in an online game?"

This is a weird example, but... well, WoW's Moon Guard is kind of a weird place.

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StoryI'm a bi lady, and one of my characters was a gay night elf. I'd never done an in-game relationship with him - it wasn't really my thing, not to mention that finding another person roleplaying a gay man without being weird and fetishistic about it was like finding a diamond in the rough. Anyway, I'd finally found a promising guild with him and I couldn't be happier.

After a few weeks with these people, RPing, attending events, chatting, and generally being happy at finding a group of night elf players not insane, one of them starts joking around with me about how her character has a crush on mine. We laugh a bit but she makes it increasingly clear it wasn't just a joke, so I add something like, "Poor <charname>'s barking up the wrong tree, with <my dude> being gay and all. This can't end well for them."

Dead silence, and then an explosion. Gay? He doesn't even act gay! Here, let me write you a dissertation on why it's lorebreaking for a nelf to be gay.Â Aren't you bi? Why don't you like me? Our characters belong together, and here's why!

I was a little startled but most of these people seemed cool, so I excused myself and logged before I could argue. I did what I could to dodge the moon-eyed shipper, playing alts when she was on or keeping the subject on other things. The atmosphere was a bit frosty - I wouldn't get invited to events that I had before, or I'd get ignored in chat, stuff like that - but I soldiered on and assumed it would get better with time.

About a week later, when I thought the matter had faded away, she pipes up with this in guild chat(paraphrased): "I've been talking with the rest of the officers, and we don't think the gay stuff is appropriate." Basically, I got an ultimatum: change my character so I could pair off with her, or get kicked. I chose option C: calling them gross and leaving the guild myself. You can't fire me, I quit!

So... yeah, it happens, sometimes. I understand why someone would seek out a LGBT-themed community-within-a-community. It's not about isolationism, or being a special snowflake. It's about finding a community of peers who understand you, and won't ever, ever judge you on the basis of your orientation - a safe space. Bigotry and homophobia are still very common, frequently surfacing in both subtle and overt ways. Calling it a "non-issue" is very narrow-minded and naive at best, and outright harmful and dismissive at worst. Your experiences are not someone else's experiences.

Holy shizz-nozzle! What a cunt! D:
I'm sorry you had to go through something like that.

Blue · **06-24-2015, 05:52 AM**

(06-24-2015, 05:16 AM)Yours Truly Wrote: Calling it a "non-issue" is very narrow-minded and naive at best, and outright harmful and dismissive at worst. Your experiences are not someone else's experiences.

By non-issue, I meant that it doesn't happen on the ordinary. After spending almost two years here and seeing zero situations where whatsoever discrimination regarding sexual orientation was seen either IC or OOC, I think I can safely say that these things though they can happen, because if there's ying there will always be yang somewhere are not ordinary, and do not require hiding/closing away from others/isolating/etc. I'm sorry that puts me as a narrow-minded and naive person, harmful and dismissive (which, wow, is way worse of a collection of adjectives that I feel I have been sharing with others in this discussion), but my concept of ordinary is clearly different from yours.

Either way, my thoughts have run their course on the topic, so I shall leave the thread now before I get more of that simply for trying to encourage some more open-mindedness and equality in a world that, as far as I have seen, is already open-minded and supportive of equality all year round. Looking forward to seeing you guys RP around.

Fox · **06-24-2015, 06:08 AM**

(06-24-2015, 03:04 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: So I have a question, if you are LGBT (which I am, I might add), what does that have to do with RP?

Gay RPers? Do you only RP gay characters? I can see an LS for maybe figuring out how to RP an LGBT character for people who OOCly aren't, but I'm not sure how sexuality would change your RP. I RP characters of lots of different situations, some of which I am not personally.

I'm personally pan so I'll bite.

I do not only play gay characters or bi characters or anything of the sort personally. For me? I play any sexuality. I've played straight characters, I've played asexual characters, bi, pan, gay, etc etc etc.

I separate myself completely from my characters what I like may not be what my character may like. I have straight female characters, and I've had straight male characters in the past.

I personally like a bit of everything when it comes to rping. I like trying out new things, and I research a -lot- when I do something that is out of the norm for myself.

Qhora Bajihri · **06-24-2015, 12:02 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:48 AM)Alaz Wrote: Not 'everyone' is legitimately nice. I'm really and genuinely glad to hear that your experiences have been positive, but not everyone has had the same.
I've been nearly outted by people I trusted (who were not LGBTQA) on purpose and to blackmail me. It took me threatening legal action for it to stop.
I've had a RP partner stop talking to me entirely when they found out.
I've had another RP partner make snide comments about friends of mine (who are out) TOWARDS me that were very offensive, not knowing that I also was in that same predicament, but closeted.Â
I've seen people call my closest friends anything from 'it' to 'he-she' to any other number of very transphobic things, and they'd absolutely refuse to call him by his preferred gender pronouns.Â

All of these things happened on this very server, from people who are or have been on this server. No, not everyone is legitimately nice and some of us now have severe trust issues alongside it. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone will respond to hurtful things the same way. For one person, what they view as water off a duck's back may be a straw that broke the camel's back to another. You may be able to brush it off, but it may send another person into a spiraling depression.

Seems like some people are missing this in through their rose-colored goggles regarding the amazingness of our community.

I'm so so so sorry you had experiences like these. Blackmail? That's beyond the pale.

I'm an ally myself, but I've had so so many LGBT IC encounters that I'd been beginning to think that the LGBT characters (I know very little of players) actually significantly outnumbered the cis. That's not problematic, but it shows how important it is to step back and realize that any given individual's experience is far from reflective of everybody else's.

And dropping another tag for Tenrilaux's new LS.

Alderique · **06-24-2015, 12:50 PM**

I don't think it's currently important to discuss whether or not there should or should not be an organized place for LGBT characters and players. Some want it, some don't, and no one is required to participate. The community overall seems pretty inclusive, so its less of a problem than it was many years ago.

No one should feel like anyone is trying to seclude themselves off from the rest of the community. Relationships can be a big part of roleplay, and I've rarely had the opportunity to play one while also playing as a homosexual character. It would be easier if I played a heterosexual character, sure. It bothers me though, because it's a little too reminiscent of playing it straight in the real world for the sake of fitting in.

I struggle to include myself in roleplay situations, as I often feel like people tend to stick to their own cliques, and I don't find opportunities to comfortably include myself. I tend to go to any public event that coincides with my available play time, even if the theme doesn't have a lot to do with my characters, just for the sake of being involved. In roleplay you don't always have a lot of time to get to know people. You don't have the benefit of reading body language, or feeling any natural chemistry. I don't want to have to start hitting on characters or making comments about attraction and sexuality IC to announce myself, either. I like the idea of being introduced to other characters who, if I get along with and enjoy RPing with, I can keep their orientation in the back of my mind and be open to possibilities.

Some might say that relationships don't matter so much in roleplay, but I've seen enough of it in my day to disagree. Countless weddings and love ceremonies in this game and other games I've played. You'll often see many characters sitting together, talking about their relationship or just rubbing up against each other going "Oh, it is late, are you tired, my loving love?" "Yes, dear, it has been a long day of fighting coeurls but I am so happy to be here in your arms now". The game has marriage now, and I dunno.. It might be cool to participate in a feature like that at some point?

All that being said, I've also joined an artist linkshell, and am looking for a reliable generic RP linkshell for meeting peopleâ€”casting a wide net. I'm also keeping an eye out for potential free companies to join. There's more to me and my character than just my orientation, but it is part of me, and it is part of my character.

Cailean Lockwood · **06-24-2015, 01:06 PM**

There was a bar, an FC house in Lavender Beds that was made into a gay bar called the Speakeasy. It was actually a really awesome place, but due to said drama I talked about earlier in this thread, it kinda shut down. Too bad, because it was fun to go and be a place and just be gay with other gays.

It's like when people meet at cons to do cosplay, or go to tournaments to play Yu-Gi-Oh or whatever. People sharing interests and having fun. ^^

Cato · **06-24-2015, 02:00 PM**

Would Eorzea even have 'gay bars' though? I could understand a brothel catering to gay men but 'gay bar' feels like a term that's a bit too...modern. As for the drama, I've sort of trained myself to be wary of the LGBT community due to all the drama that seems ready to burst from beneath the surface at the slightest misunderstanding or perceived 'easy target'.

I've been harassed for playing and preferring men who look and act like men instead of conforming to the stereotypical portrayal of gay men. I've been harassed for being bisexual with people claiming that I want to sleep with everyone I meet or that it's 'just a phase'. This has happened far more often at the hands of the LGBT community itself than at the hands of anybody outside of it. I suppose in some ways the LGBT movement is its own worst enemy at times.

AquiziTC · **06-24-2015, 02:12 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:00 PM)Graeham Wrote: Would Eorzea even have 'gay bars' though? I could understand a brothel catering to gay men but 'gay bar' feels like a term that's a bit too...modern. As for the drama, I've sort of trained myself to be wary of the LGBT community due to all the drama that seems ready to burst from beneath the surface at the slightest misunderstanding or perceived 'easy target'.

I've been harassed for playing and preferring men who look and act like men instead of conforming to the stereotypical portrayal of gay men. I've been harassed for being bisexual with people claiming that I want to sleep with everyone I meet or that it's 'just a phase'. This has happened far more often at the hands of the LGBT community itself than at the hands of anybody outside of it. I suppose in some ways the LGBT movement is its own worst enemy at times.

Firstly: Yes the LGBT+ community has to deal with its own prejudices and stuff! Like with bisexual folks, or transgendered individuals. It is something that good activist groups and kind-minded people try to keep in check. I try to call out the hypocrisy whenever I notice it. (It's something I was trained to look forward to in college, with student organization things.)

I have my own theory about the vaunted 'gay drama.' It kinda boils down to a person unable to handle their own power after being used to being powerless or something to that note. It's hard to describe in just a few words, and it's just the psych side of me (yay psychology livelihood!) overthinking, perhaps.

As for the gay 'bar.' Eh, I dunno. Sometimes people just want to have a little fun with the setting. Not EVERYTHING has to be 100% lore explainable. It could also just be a weird quirk that is rare, but if it's not hurting anyone who cares?

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-24-2015, 02:13 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:00 PM)Graeham Wrote: Would Eorzea even have 'gay bars' though? I could understand a brothel catering to gay men but 'gay bar' feels like a term that's a bit too...modern. As for the drama, I've sort of trained myself to be wary of the LGBT community due to all the drama that seems ready to burst from beneath the surface at the slightest misunderstanding or perceived 'easy target'.

I've been harassed for playing and preferring men who look and act like men instead of conforming to the stereotypical portrayal of gay men. I've been harassed for being bisexual with people claiming that I want to sleep with everyone I meet or that it's 'just a phase'. This has happened far more often at the hands of the LGBT community itself than at the hands of anybody outside of it. I suppose in some ways the LGBT movement is its own worst enemy at times.

There is what seems to be a lesbian bar in Limsa, or at least an all female one. A gay bar doesn't seem that unlikely. Eorzeans are horn dogs.

shotgunbadger · **06-24-2015, 02:19 PM**

Yea Eorzeans have a fairly libertine attitude about sex in general it feels like, lots of places you can go where people are just making bawdy comments and jokes in the open. Not like you can start dry humping in the market square or whatever but it strikes me as at the very least some form of 'gay bar' could exist without having guards shut it down. There would reasonably be a decent bit of 'oh yea we don't wanna go THERE' stuff to deal with but I don't think any of the major cities (except Ishgard who has their own weird shit) would outright say 'no if you set this up we're gonna raid it Stonewall style'.

Alderique · **06-24-2015, 02:29 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:00 PM)Graeham Wrote: Would Eorzea even have 'gay bars' though? I could understand a brothel catering to gay men but 'gay bar' feels like a term that's a bit too...modern. As for the drama, I've sort of trained myself to be wary of the LGBT community due to all the drama that seems ready to burst from beneath the surface at the slightest misunderstanding or perceived 'easy target'.

I've been harassed for playing and preferring men who look and act like men instead of conforming to the stereotypical portrayal of gay men. I've been harassed for being bisexual with people claiming that I want to sleep with everyone I meet or that it's 'just a phase'. This has happened far more often at the hands of the LGBT community itself than at the hands of anybody outside of it. I suppose in some ways the LGBT movement is its own worst enemy at times.

Roleplayers are always going to create events that they want, even if they aren't accurate to the world lore. There are many free companies and characters that deviate from the lore, but people want them, so they'll do them. People play characters and organizations based on their favorite books, movies, animes, and whatever. Even though we may not always agree, sometimes you just gotta let 'em roll with it. Would Eorzea have gay bars, probably not. Do we need them? No. If people want them? Sure.

It sucks that you've dealt with some of those issues, and I understand what you mean. I get annoyed by the common bisexual-bashing, and tend to argue with other gay people who criticize it. I also get very annoyed when gay guys start bashing lesbians or transgender folks, even if it's just in jest. People have to be called out on it.

Drama often is a problem with the gay community, but it's also a problem with roleplay communities, and that's for a number of reasons that I'm not enough of a psychologist to get into. I think it's important for members of communities to keep each other in line, and learn to see behavior that leads up to conflict, even if you're not the party being offended.

People are complex, and groups are even more complex. I would prefer to see a loose network of LGBT individuals, rather than some organized coalition, the same way I'd also like a loose network of general roleplayers, or chocobo racers, or fishing buddies, or whatever.

Thorgar · **06-24-2015, 02:34 PM**

the only time in my life orientation has ever bothered me is when im trying to talk to someone and they have their back to me lol.Â Seriously be yourself and have fun, if anyone gives ya grief we club'em like baby seals and feed them to primals. I have always said we are here to have fun not ruin the fun of others.

Even if you RP a racist/speciest/bigot be courteous and send a tell to the people your RPing with to let them know its all in character, and be willing to drop it if it ruins the game for those people.

I have never understood the need to shove ones personal beliefs into other peoples faces, always seemed rude to me lol. we are who we are be proud to know the people you do they are each unique and should be respected for that.

Suviyo Viyo · **06-26-2015, 12:35 AM**

I'm not going to blather and ramble too much here because I'm still fairly new to this RP community. But still, as an out transwoman, I have found it nice to be part of communities where I can feel less alone and isolated in that. I know some of you like being all strong and independent... but some of us do appreciate support and similarly understanding people to talk to when issues arise.

For me MMOs are about more than just RP, questing, dungeons, etc... to me it's a social community where you spent a significant amount of time doing fun activities like that... but still a place online to go and be social. And for someone who sometimes finds themselves in the crosshairs of a still rather hostile society... It's really important to have safe spaces you can turn to.

Just saying... It seems nice here so far... but I HAVE witnessed a number of incidents in other MMO games that make me feel less safe sometimes to be open about who I am.

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LGBT Characters and Related Groups (Balmung)

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