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Erik Mynhier · **06-25-2015, 04:14 PM**

(06-25-2015, 03:11 PM)Melkire Wrote: And it should also be noted that there are several cases, particularly in the Ul'dah starter quests, of hardworking, loyal, "for the good of the people" Brass Blades who are not rotten, selfish, or corrupt. Fufulupa and Leofric are notable in this regard.

You will also note there are Blade npcs placed in Ul'dah and Mor Dhona post-2.5 that (without spoiling anything) have dialog that denotes them as "good cops".

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-25-2015, 04:29 PM**

(06-25-2015, 03:50 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Ul"dah's brass blades tend to work like the Roman Vigiles, a paramilitary force maintained by private interests. Â Much like the Vigiles, who were privately owned slaves who expanded into hired and privately funded police and firefighters, the Brass blades are privately operated watchmen.

They look for petty thievery, and other lesser crimes like public drunkeness and brawls. Â Larger things like sedition, murder, and other "high" crimes are probably handled by the Immortal Flames who are "official" and as such are required to represent and protect the city for more high profile problems. Â

Meanwhile the Brass Blades keep the rich rich, the poor where they can, and Ul'dah and it's various outposts from burning down. Â They're not true public servants, but they do the day to day from guard duty at outposts to pick pocket chasing in Thanalan.Â

However, given Ul'dah's status, they often get called to handle things that are a larger and more immediate and mercurial threat to civic order. Â Riots, uprisings, disaster control (Like say: Fire), are also probably handled by the Brass Blades as WELL as the Immortal Flames.

As for courts, There's famous prisoners in Ul'Dah, but I don't suspect petty theives and the like are actually locked up. Â To draw from the Romans and Greeks: Prisons were a waste of real estate and resources. Â Long term imprisonment cost money, and LOTS of it, and there's no private prison network in Ul'Dah like there is in the US to print money from that. (Yet). Â Which means most people are probably turned to hard labor, given harsh fines, or told to fight in the bloodsands for redemption when they break the law and get caught (Key word, get caught). Â There's evidence of courts for this, but it also means that smaller more civic disputes are handled privately until they blow up large enough to attract the Blade's attention and to drag the parties involved to a magistrate. Â This probably means the bad blood involved has caused some sort of larger civic unrest or disaster, in which case, everyone that's getting hauled in is probably getting hosed because the court probably wants it's pound of flesh as well now. (Discounting the fine ul'dah traditions of bribery and favours owed, which is probably in full force in the legal system)

The Brass Blades are an international Mercenary army as well.

They're far more than just a sort of paramilitary unit. I would argue them more as a military unit that is doing policing, rather than a policing unit that has grown large.

They can be seen all over Eorzea, something you don't see of the similar yellowjackets or wood wailers. Ul'dah is just one of their many clients... lolorito is making bank.

Hammersmith · **06-25-2015, 04:39 PM**

(06-25-2015, 04:29 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 03:50 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Ul"dah's brass blades tend to work like the Roman Vigiles, a paramilitary force maintained by private interests. Â Much like the Vigiles, who were privately owned slaves who expanded into hired and privately funded police and firefighters, the Brass blades are privately operated watchmen.

They look for petty thievery, and other lesser crimes like public drunkeness and brawls. Â Larger things like sedition, murder, and other "high" crimes are probably handled by the Immortal Flames who are "official" and as such are required to represent and protect the city for more high profile problems. Â

Meanwhile the Brass Blades keep the rich rich, the poor where they can, and Ul'dah and it's various outposts from burning down. Â They're not true public servants, but they do the day to day from guard duty at outposts to pick pocket chasing in Thanalan.Â

However, given Ul'dah's status, they often get called to handle things that are a larger and more immediate and mercurial threat to civic order. Â Riots, uprisings, disaster control (Like say: Fire), are also probably handled by the Brass Blades as WELL as the Immortal Flames.

As for courts, There's famous prisoners in Ul'Dah, but I don't suspect petty theives and the like are actually locked up. Â To draw from the Romans and Greeks: Prisons were a waste of real estate and resources. Â Long term imprisonment cost money, and LOTS of it, and there's no private prison network in Ul'Dah like there is in the US to print money from that. (Yet). Â Which means most people are probably turned to hard labor, given harsh fines, or told to fight in the bloodsands for redemption when they break the law and get caught (Key word, get caught). Â There's evidence of courts for this, but it also means that smaller more civic disputes are handled privately until they blow up large enough to attract the Blade's attention and to drag the parties involved to a magistrate. Â This probably means the bad blood involved has caused some sort of larger civic unrest or disaster, in which case, everyone that's getting hauled in is probably getting hosed because the court probably wants it's pound of flesh as well now. (Discounting the fine ul'dah traditions of bribery and favours owed, which is probably in full force in the legal system)

The Brass Blades are an international Mercenary army as well.

They're far more than just a sort of paramilitary unit. I would argue them more as a military unit that is doing policing, rather than a policing unit that has grown large.

They can be seen all over Eorzea, something you don't see of the similar yellowjackets or wood wailers. Ul'dah is just one of their many clients... lolorito is making bank.

Paramilitary is anything that isn't officially under a nation state's armed forces. Â I know the term tends to describe vigilates and millitia these days but it technically applies to anyone raising an army that isn't part and parcel and controlled directly by a nation's leadership.

Unless a Syndicate member's personal military holdings can/are counted as part of Ul'Dah's overall structure (Judging by how the Blades don't operate just in Ul'Dah and work directly for other nations interest), they're technically just a very fancy (And very powerful) paramilitary unit.

Which holds up what we know about them, and keeps the Vigiles comparison pretty apt. They're a professional unit, just not one that represents Ul'Dah when things go wrong (or right) in their operations.(Though, obviously, Ul'Dah can hold them accountable for the multiple instances of bribery, corruption, and lazyness that several side quests demonstrate the blades take/engage in during the course of their contracted duties TO the state.)

Coatleque · **06-25-2015, 05:02 PM**

Us Sultansworn, on the other hand, don't care about the gil. We'll just crack anyone's head who misbehaves in front of us.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-25-2015, 05:15 PM**

(06-25-2015, 04:39 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 04:29 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 03:50 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Ul"dah's brass blades tend to work like the Roman Vigiles, a paramilitary force maintained by private interests. Â Much like the Vigiles, who were privately owned slaves who expanded into hired and privately funded police and firefighters, the Brass blades are privately operated watchmen.

They look for petty thievery, and other lesser crimes like public drunkeness and brawls. Â Larger things like sedition, murder, and other "high" crimes are probably handled by the Immortal Flames who are "official" and as such are required to represent and protect the city for more high profile problems. Â

Meanwhile the Brass Blades keep the rich rich, the poor where they can, and Ul'dah and it's various outposts from burning down. Â They're not true public servants, but they do the day to day from guard duty at outposts to pick pocket chasing in Thanalan.Â

However, given Ul'dah's status, they often get called to handle things that are a larger and more immediate and mercurial threat to civic order. Â Riots, uprisings, disaster control (Like say: Fire), are also probably handled by the Brass Blades as WELL as the Immortal Flames.

As for courts, There's famous prisoners in Ul'Dah, but I don't suspect petty theives and the like are actually locked up. Â To draw from the Romans and Greeks: Prisons were a waste of real estate and resources. Â Long term imprisonment cost money, and LOTS of it, and there's no private prison network in Ul'Dah like there is in the US to print money from that. (Yet). Â Which means most people are probably turned to hard labor, given harsh fines, or told to fight in the bloodsands for redemption when they break the law and get caught (Key word, get caught). Â There's evidence of courts for this, but it also means that smaller more civic disputes are handled privately until they blow up large enough to attract the Blade's attention and to drag the parties involved to a magistrate. Â This probably means the bad blood involved has caused some sort of larger civic unrest or disaster, in which case, everyone that's getting hauled in is probably getting hosed because the court probably wants it's pound of flesh as well now. (Discounting the fine ul'dah traditions of bribery and favours owed, which is probably in full force in the legal system)

The Brass Blades are an international Mercenary army as well.

They're far more than just a sort of paramilitary unit. I would argue them more as a military unit that is doing policing, rather than a policing unit that has grown large.

They can be seen all over Eorzea, something you don't see of the similar yellowjackets or wood wailers. Ul'dah is just one of their many clients... lolorito is making bank.

Paramilitary is anything that isn't officially under a nation state's armed forces. Â I know the term tends to describe vigilates and millitia these days but it technically applies to anyone raising an army that isn't part and parcel and controlled directly by a nation's leadership.

Unless a Syndicate member's personal military holdings can/are counted as part of Ul'Dah's overall structure (Judging by how the Blades don't operate just in Ul'Dah and work directly for other nations interest), they're technically just a very fancy (And very powerful) paramilitary unit.

Which holds up what we know about them, and keeps the Vigiles comparison pretty apt. They're a professional unit, just not one that represents Ul'Dah when things go wrong (or right) in their operations.(Though, obviously, Ul'Dah can hold them accountable for the multiple instances of bribery, corruption, and lazyness that several side quests demonstrate the blades take/engage in during the course of their contracted duties TO the state.)

I don't really think Paramilitary is a good word to use in premodern times. I don't think they're counted as paramilitary if they're organized outside the state. If a mercenary army has its own commanders, funds, and independent goals outside of any one specific state, it's not really a paramilitary force. On the wikipedia page for example you see lots of examples, but mercenaries are not one.

The Landsknechts a paramilitary force? The Swiss Pikemen? German Hussars? Though I admit this is a bit out of scope of this topic.

Seriphyn · **06-25-2015, 06:02 PM**

(06-25-2015, 05:15 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I don't really think Paramilitary is a good word to use in premodern times. I don't think they're counted as paramilitary if they're organized outside the state. If a mercenary army has its own commanders, funds, and independent goals outside of any one specific state, it's not really a paramilitary force. On the wikipedia page for example you see lots of examples, but mercenaries are not one.

The Landsknechts a paramilitary force? The Swiss Pikemen? German Hussars? Though I admit this is a bit out of scope of this topic.

Yes, people are using a lot of anachronistic terms in this thread. Historically there were no such distinctions. The world of Eorzea does not have the very formal administrative structure that modern nation-states have.

The Sultansworn are royal guard/knightly order with fealty to the Ul'dahn monarch.
The Immortal Flames are a standing army with a formal structure answerable to the Flame General.
The Brass Blades are a mercenary order paid by Ul'dahn interests to keep the peace.

That is it, really! There is no 'military', 'paramilitary', or 'law enforcement' in the contemporary sense.

Hammersmith · **06-25-2015, 06:43 PM**

(06-25-2015, 06:02 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 05:15 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I don't really think Paramilitary is a good word to use in premodern times. I don't think they're counted as paramilitary if they're organized outside the state. If a mercenary army has its own commanders, funds, and independent goals outside of any one specific state, it's not really a paramilitary force. On the wikipedia page for example you see lots of examples, but mercenaries are not one.

The Landsknechts a paramilitary force? The Swiss Pikemen? German Hussars? Though I admit this is a bit out of scope of this topic.

Yes, people are using a lot of anachronistic terms in this thread. Historically there were no such distinctions. The world of Eorzea does not have the very formal administrative structure that modern nation-states have.

The Sultansworn are royal guard/knightly order with fealty to the Ul'dahn monarch.

The Immortal Flames are a standing army with a formal structure answerable to the Flame General.

The Brass Blades are a mercenary order paid by Ul'dahn interests to keep the peace.

That is it, really! There is no 'military', 'paramilitary', or 'law enforcement' in the contemporary sense.

Yeah, this was why I kept comparing them to the Roman civic stuff, because they had a similar setup of "Royal guard" "Army" "Those mooks who keep the city from burning down when someone puts too much wine in the fountains"

Meena · **06-25-2015, 07:36 PM**

I've found that most people ignore the fact there even is a form of policing in city states - just because there is no character representation. Im very surprised its done but then again - I guess its all up to personal preference. I've given up multiple times playing a Brass Blade just due to the fact that many adventurers just theatened to beat the living snot out of him for trying to enforce the law.

"I'm sorry, but kidnapping is Illeal, and the discussion of such is questionable to your alibi."
*gets attacked in quicksand*
"I'll call for backup!"

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-25-2015, 07:38 PM**

(06-25-2015, 07:36 PM)Meena Wrote: I've found that most people ignore the fact there even is a form of policing in city states - just because there is no character representation. Im very surprised its done but then again - I guess its all up to personal preference. I've given up multiple times playing a Brass Blade just due to the fact that many adventurers just theatened to beat the living snot out of him for trying to enforce the law.

"I'm sorry, but kidnapping is Illeal, and the discussion of such is questionable to your alibi."
*gets attacked in quicksand*
"I'll call for backup!"

I have found the trick is to talk to them OOC, and make sure they're cool with the idea of them getting hauled off or chased away.

If they want to beat up my brass blade just to be cool I stay away, unless we have some sort of prior arrangement.

Melkire · **06-25-2015, 07:39 PM**

(06-25-2015, 07:36 PM)Meena Wrote: I've found that most people ignore the fact there even is a form of policing in city states - just because there is no character representation. Im very surprised its done but then again - I guess its all up to personal preference. I've given up multiple times playing a Brass Blade just due to the fact that many adventurers just theatened to beat the living snot out of him for trying to enforce the law.

"I'm sorry, but kidnapping is Illeal, and the discussion of such is questionable to your alibi."
*gets attacked in quicksand*
"I'll call for backup!"

Had something similar happen several weeks ago. Highlander male took offense to my little lalafell lass' banter (she may have insulted the size of his... ahem) and hoisted her up by the hair. Cue a challenge to a duel outside the Quicksand. Cue /random rolls and OoC communication in tells and it made for a very fun spectacle. Had a crowd of maybe a dozen watching? Was certainly entertaining.

But yes, roleplaying authority can be troublesome at times. We've had a number of topics on that alone over the past few months, years, etc.

Meena · **06-25-2015, 07:42 PM**

(06-25-2015, 07:38 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 07:36 PM)Meena Wrote: I've found that most people ignore the fact there even is a form of policing in city states - just because there is no character representation. Im very surprised its done but then again - I guess its all up to personal preference. I've given up multiple times playing a Brass Blade just due to the fact that many adventurers just theatened to beat the living snot out of him for trying to enforce the law.

"I'm sorry, but kidnapping is Illeal, and the discussion of such is questionable to your alibi."
*gets attacked in quicksand*
"I'll call for backup!"

I have found the trick is to talk to them OOC, and make sure they're cool with the idea of them getting hauled off or chased away.

If they want to beat up my brass blade just to be cool I stay away, unless we have some sort of prior arrangement.

In my opinion, that's stupid.
If they don't want consequences for their inately illegal activities in the middle of a public place, they should be doing it.

Why would you be advertising you sell illegal narcotics in a public sqaure? Especially next to the NPC brassblades. If I use the logic 'they arent played therefore they don't matter'

Should I also ignore:
The Sulatana
99% of the MSQ
Momodi etc?

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-25-2015, 07:48 PM**

(06-25-2015, 07:42 PM)Meena Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 07:38 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 07:36 PM)Meena Wrote: I've found that most people ignore the fact there even is a form of policing in city states - just because there is no character representation. Im very surprised its done but then again - I guess its all up to personal preference. I've given up multiple times playing a Brass Blade just due to the fact that many adventurers just theatened to beat the living snot out of him for trying to enforce the law.

"I'm sorry, but kidnapping is Illeal, and the discussion of such is questionable to your alibi."
*gets attacked in quicksand*
"I'll call for backup!"

I have found the trick is to talk to them OOC, and make sure they're cool with the idea of them getting hauled off or chased away.

If they want to beat up my brass blade just to be cool I stay away, unless we have some sort of prior arrangement.
In my opinion, that's stupid.
If they don't want consequences for their inately illegal activities in the middle of a public place, they should be doing it.

Why would you be advertising you sell illegal narcotics in a public sqaure? Especially next to the NPC brassblades. If I use the logic 'they arent played therefore they don't matter'

Should I also ignore:
The Sulatana
99% of the MSQ
Momodi etc?

You can say that, but they are under no obligation to accept your authority as Law Enforcement. Public RP is a complicated beast, and a little OOC communication is good to put everyone on the same page.

If someone OOCly doesn't want to get arrested or confronted by the Blades, It's better to just find out beforehand.

Edit: You're allowed to ignore what you'd like, and so are other players. That's the nature of us as being a group of individuals with individual opinions.

Caspar · **06-25-2015, 09:10 PM**

There needs to be just like, a Brass Blades FC, so that when the adventurers get uppity, the sheer weight of numbers encourages them to pay the fine or serve their sentence, give up their stolen goods, etc.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-25-2015, 09:18 PM**

(06-25-2015, 09:10 PM)Caspar Wrote: There needs to be just like, a Brass Blades FC, so that when the adventurers get uppity, the sheer weight of numbers encourages them to pay the fine or serve their sentence, give up their stolen goods, etc.

People say this, but they don't often want to do it.

I have one myself:
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=11504

However there aren't that many people who want to play an underpaid, probably corrupt guard.

Paradox · **06-29-2015, 10:41 AM**

The only major problem with a large in-RP police force is the same problem presented with a lack of them; wanting to force things or ignore things by individuals who think the RP 'badge' gives them power over others. I've seen this happen in various other MMOs where there's a lore backed or official police force and people play guards or members of this force. While some are fine roleplayers, you do have the ones who just want to play a cop to be an asshole cop, and try to harass, arrest, or otherwise bother people for the tiniest infractions, all the time, and then pull the 'well in the lore/canon/etc our police force is valid so you have to listen/obey/etc.

Not everyone will do this. But it has been done, so any large group of police characters like that has to be done with extreme care, lest they become the bullies. And considering the Blades often have a lot of assholes and corrupt people on their force, you might find this kind of play becomes more attractive in such a group. Not saying it will, but just that it can, so it's good to know who your members are and that they can be trusted not to cause toxic RP. Overwhelming with numbers can also eventually cause tension (been on the receiving end of this before), and while it's what a realistic police force would do, it has to be handled carefully or it turns into one big Charlie Foxtrot.

On the flip side, the idea of a brass blades group that creates a little tension here and there within reason, roots out its own corruption, tries to reform 'bad cops', and so on might make an interesting bit of pre-modern police drama, which I don't see any of, really. The conflict of those who want to serve and protect, vs those who want to make money and climb the ladder is great for RP within such a police force. Makes for some delicious conflict.

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