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Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 02:04 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:00 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 01:58 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)V Wrote: That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

Right, it's xenophobia rather than racism.

Which returns to the issue of whether or not things like being a dragoon should be limited to specific races, when the evidence in the game based on NPC treatment suggests that as long as the player has a plausible reason for their character to be a respected resident of Ishgard (not an outsider, in other words), their race shouldn't matter at all.

But then we're just getting into an entirely separate argument of "Is there a plausible way in which a non-hyur or non-elezen could become a respected resident of Ishgard" and thus ten more pages of worthless non-argument.

Zelmanov · **09-01-2015, 02:05 AM**

I make a disclaimer that some of these descriptions are tinted with a bit of my own experiences and I tried my best to demarcate exactly where fact end and my opinions begin

Ishgardian Lifespan: It is brutishly short, especially for military it seems. A dragon in the MSQ straight up taunts you in about it. Essentially it boils down to "once you hit 30 years old its downhill for you and us dragons just get stronger". Â Life has only gotten harsher with the 5 years of winter stretching resources thin. Starvation and cold claim lives just as often as dragons do. The only ones that see old age are the nobility that don't step foot outside Ishgard or the grizzled veterans that are now too old to fight and are more liability than resource, as shown by 2 retired dragoons(Alberic and Heustienne's father) and an injured Elezen in the barracks.

If you plan to make a Dragoon (drachen armor and leaps), I would argue that it'd be much like a tennis player, a very TINY window of physical prowess at its peak, these guys are both seal team and suicide squad and the plots involving them seem to reflect that, you find dragoon squads dead or wiped out often to show that this particular dragon means business (See "Worf Effect")

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Cliffnotes for High Houses:

Durendaire : Most powerful barring Dzemael, their crest is the rook for a reason and that reason is that they are the foremost fort builders and have gotten much favor and riches from it. The cool kids club essentially. In the MSQ they are known for being barriers (trying to get that guys trust in whitebrim) or antagonists (Machinist story line)

Haillernarte: While they have far reaching dominion over skyfire locks and the camps in the sea of clouds and the skyfire manufactory, they are the weakest currently. They seem to be low on man power and wealth and is why Stephanivien turns to the firearm to be the great equalizer in the Dragonsong war. Lot of secondary characters of neutral to good in the MSQ come from here if only for their associations with Fortemps.

Fortemps: The most "progressive" of the 4 if only for its eager acceptance of aid from adventurers and outsiders. Most of our MSQ good guys come from here.

Dzemael: powerful, have control of caves and has led to OOC confusion and IC rumors of them being duskwight. The hairdresser in game is an heir to Dzemael and is a duskwight. Essentially hufflepuff for their non impact in the MSQ so far.

Minor Noble Houses:

Much like medieval society, it appears that a baseborn (peasants, non nobles, 5th or 6th or nth born nobles so far down the line that they are jilted of succession) can find upwards mobility through 2 means: Clergy or Military.Â

St. Reymanaud Cathedral takes in students of all sorts, and even if highborns may turn their noses up at the more common students, they are accepted into the clergy and nothing states that they cannot become inquisitors or the like.

Military is basically "Kill a dragon, get honor". Death by Dragon is already honorable enough (death by anything else isn't) but getting a true dragon kill confers a title and consideration of merit. Manner of kill doesn't seem to matter for there is a quest where a cannoneer was giddy when he shoots one out of the sky and asks you to investigate for him, saying that he could become a temple knight with this.Â

Much like medieval times, good service can confer promotion to knighthood or opportunities.

It is easy to claim to be a minor noble house and most noble houses, if not all, are sworn to one of the 4 high houses. Whether there are Hyur minor noble houses is up to debate and good luck trying to justify any OTHER race as a minor house without proper lore back up and back story. Au Ra nobility in Ishgard is impossible, given their recent migration and the fact that ISHGARD THOUGHT THEY WERE GODS DAMN DRAGON PEOPLE AND KILLED THEM ON SIGHT.Â

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Long Version of Dragoon LoreDragoons:

As stated before,there are 2 types. There is the "killed a dragon" sort which is a title, which gives an idea of how dismal of a war effort it is, either that or nobility love to reserve the kill for themselves (have their archers shoot a dragon down and the noble kills a wounded, dying beast, much like hunts of yore in our world) there is evidence for that theory with the Convictory questline. You'll find some plain armored dragoons(look like regular knights) in the 2.0 questline.

Then you have the Dragoon, these are the ones that get the Drachen Mail quenched in Dragon Blood, can do crazy leaps and acrobatics, basically the cool one we all wanna play.

There is the Azure Dragoon, which you cannot be because there is usually only one per generation and currently there are 2 only because the Warrior of Light main character is one. You are neither the WOL or Estinien, claim to be either and your RP pool shrinks. They get an Eye of Nidhogg and it basically supercharges their powers to 11.5.

Then there are the others. A lot of the lore is shrouded in mystery other than that they are trained to kill dragons and do it well (enough). There seems to be a great deal of autonomy in their actions and a tolerance for...eccentricities (The Spiked butt comes to mind, also Estinien going totally AWOL, custom armor colors or weapons). Dragoons are capable of making leaps where they may not exactly survive the subsequent landing(As shown by Heustienne jumping on a dragon's back and then unable to get off as the dragon flew off in retreat)

As for "dragon magicks" I would argue that Geirskogul and Blood of the Dragon are not abilities usable by dragoons. These abilities are made up by the Warrior of Light on the spot and the WOL is an Azure Dragoon and thus can tap into powers beyond that of a regular Dragoon. Dragonfire dive, was supposed to be the pinnacle and exclusive to Azure Dragoons according to the quest lore and to me makes sense that since the 50 quest concluded with you at the pinnacle, that you would have to then free form your growth in power from there. However there is no lore beyond "Your inner dragon stirs" so who knows. I just play conservatively.

Dragoons with a capital D can jump, the Drachen armor and Dragoon Lance (Gaebolg) are standard issue and are both equipment and a symbol of their prestige, If you wish to be a Dragoon in RP, best to get those items as a base. Dragoons are also apolitical typically as mentioned by Estinien. They don't care about the squabbles and power-games of nobility, they just kill dragons. That is not to say you cannot be a more politically minded Dragoon.

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V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 02:05 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:59 AM)Oli! Wrote: Perhaps I'm confused; how many gate guards that fit the bill are there? I thought we were talking about the picture of just the one.

There are two listed:

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/K%27leytai

Dialogue:

Welcome to Camp Riversmeet. I am Gatewarden K'leytai.

Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of the Wyrmking's Perch, The Lance, and Twinpools.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Panha_Jaab

Dialogue:

Welcome to Camp Crooked Fork. I am Gatewarden Panha Jaab.

Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of Maiden Glen, the Hushed Boughs and Scarwing Fall.

(09-01-2015, 02:04 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: "Is there a plausible way in which a non-hyur or non-elezen could become a respected resident of Ishgard"

Strength, work-ethic, and decent connections. Just ask http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lucia

Also, what part of the whole "Kill big dragon, get big title" shtick is particularly difficult to grasp?

Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 02:16 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:05 AM)Valeera Wrote: Also, what part of the whole "Kill big dragon, get big title" shtick is particularly difficult to grasp?

Presumably the fact that there's an entire settlement of people, many experienced, who for the most part utterly fail to achieve that exact thing in Coerthas Western. It's not exactly an easy task.

Sounsyy · **09-01-2015, 02:16 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:27 AM)Oli! Wrote: Dravania is open territory, with more than one point of access. Anyone could have gotten in there, and Q'yantaa is not only heavily implied as being new to the camp in the quest text...

Yes, Q'yantaa, Mujih Mewrilah, and L'khonebb are recent immigrants to Ishgardian territory. And the fact was acknowledged next to their names. The point of bringing them up however was because of this openness in Dravanian territory in Q'yantaa's case, or the ease in which Mujih Mewrilah and L'khonebb moved into Ishgard. Dravania is open territory, Coerthas is open territory, the Temple Knights of Ishgard work hand in hand with Gridania's Gods Quiver. Ishgard is and has been surrounded on all sides by Miqo'te populated areas for ages, well before they sealed off their borders. O'bhen Tia has been a hunter in Tailfeather for years. To blanket rule out the possibility of Miqo'te being a part of Ishgardian society at all is absurd to me. This is the very particular quote I'm referencing:

(08-31-2015, 05:31 PM)Ashe Wrote: There should be no miqo'te in Ishgard as Ishgardian citizens. Like...period. There are no non-outside people in Ishgard who are Miqo'te. At all.

In response to this quote I linked four canon Ishgardian Miqo'te that appeared in Ishgardian territory in 1.0. Two of these four ( Pahna Jaab and K'leytai ) are Gatewardens. For those who do not know, Gatewardens are citizens of their city-state who establish and protect aetheryte camps and outposts. Gatewardens from Tinolqa are all Wood Wailers or Holmwatch. Gatewardens in Thanalan are all Brass Blades. Gatewardens in La Noscea are all Knights of the Barracuda.

K'leytai specifically was the Gatewarden of Camp Riversmeet. Listen to what Artoirel says about Riversmeet:

Artoirel Wrote:It seems we have been assigned the area near Camp Riversmeet, Sounsyy. Lest you are unaware, the camp was one of many our knights were forced to abandon when we withdrew from the Coerthas western highlandsâ€”one of many sacrifices made in the wake of the Calamity.

Does this mean K'leytai or Pahna were born in Ishgard or aren't immigrants? No. But it does mean that they are Knights of Ishgard and accepted citizens of the Holy See... unless complete foreigners can become Knights? Which... I believe was the original argument against Miqo'te - that they were foreign and would never be accepted into Ishgardian society, much less become dragoons. Despite examples ranging from Lucia (Garlean) to Dyrstweitz (Roegadyn) to the knights of the Convictory showing Ishgard accepts foreigners into their ranks if they prove themselves - just like everyone else.

Lydia Lightfoot · **09-01-2015, 02:17 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:04 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: But then we're just getting into an entirely separate argument of "Is there a plausible way in which a non-hyur or non-elezen could become a respected resident of Ishgard" and thus ten more pages of worthless non-argument.

Ignoring the WYSIWYG for the following reasons...

1. Many NPCs don't have names over their heads, but we assume they in fact have a name, and are not literally named Merchant & Mender.

2. If we take the world blatantly as presented, discounting PCs there are less than 10,000 humanoids on the planet.

3. Nobody poops, and nobody has to poop. No bathrooms exist in the game, and our toons lack any imperative to require consumables (and also lack any not-speculated means of waste excretion).

4. Everyone is immortal, because our toons don't apparently age. They also don't seem to have an imperative to rest or sleep.

5. Reproduction is impossible because males don't appear to have genitals (this may account for the tiny global population).

...need I go on... Suffice it to say, we can't use WYSIWYG as a basis for interpretation of the setting. We have no way to know if the developers intended Ishgard to be "only Hyur and Elezen" because of those being the only NPCs in Ishgard, or, if that was merely a technical design choice due to wanting to streamline load speeds by reducing the variance in NPC polygons being loaded. We do have evidence of these kinds of design choices being made at a technical level, since some quest cutscene moments have voice acting and others do not. Obviously, we don't assume that our characters sometimes mysteriously become mute in the middle of doing jobs.

That's why using the what you read, rather than what you see, is the better basis. The written words are chosen deliberately for the sake of telling the story of the game and the setting. In the written dialogues, there's reference to people eating and people needing to rest. We can therefore assume those are things that happen. People are said to have children, and they're said to be old or dying. Yay, we can gather from the text that we are in fact mortal and we do reproduce.Â

So, ignore what you /see/ in the city, because what you see is either 100% literal (in which case, Ishgard is actually a really tiny hamlet, based on the population) or it's 100% speculative. The written text isn't speculative, and in the written text, there's zero difference between what the NPCs say to you as any race - including the dragoon-specific quests. Nobody in those quests says, "Are you effin kidding me, an Au Ra is trying to become a Dragoon?"

Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 02:20 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:17 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: That's why using the what you read, rather than what you see, is the better basis.

You're right, which is why instead of saying:

"There are no NPCs to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

I will say:

"There is no lore to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 02:23 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:20 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: "There is no lore to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

Lore supports miqo'te Ishgardians.

Any Ishgardian can become a dragoon.

Miqo'te Ishgardians can become dragoons.

That's just algebra, yo.

Lydia Lightfoot · **09-01-2015, 02:24 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:20 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:17 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: That's why using the what you read, rather than what you see, is the better basis.

You're right, which is why instead of saying:

"There are no NPCs to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

I will say:

"There is no lore to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

Sure there is. Play one and go through the dragoon questline. Nobody acts as if what's going on is extraordinary at all. After you complete the questline, no NPC you come across behaves as if you're unusual.

That in itself is lore.Â

There's no evidence that suggests any race isn't represented among dragoons or plausible as being an upstanding citizen of Ishgard.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ergo, you can't rationally conclude that they aren't allowed simply because the game doesn't tell you they ARE allowed. The game's dialogues lack any indication of it not being acceptable or ordinary.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 02:25 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:05 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 01:59 AM)Oli! Wrote: Perhaps I'm confused; how many gate guards that fit the bill are there? I thought we were talking about the picture of just the one.
There are two listed:

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/K%27leytai

Dialogue:

Welcome to Camp Riversmeet. I am Gatewarden K'leytai.

Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of the Wyrmking's Perch, The Lance, and Twinpools.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Panha_Jaab

Dialogue:

Welcome to Camp Crooked Fork. I am Gatewarden Panha Jaab.

Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of Maiden Glen, the Hushed Boughs and Scarwing Fall.

(09-01-2015, 02:04 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: "Is there a plausible way in which a non-hyur or non-elezen could become a respected resident of Ishgard"
Strength, work-ethic, and decent connections. Just ask http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lucia

Also, what part of the whole "Kill big dragon, get big title" shtick is particularly difficult to grasp?

That seems to be far from "all of Ishgard's borders being policed by outsiders" to me. Hiring two or three outsiders seems quite plausible, especially if the state wants to maximize the amount of competent people killing dragons.

But even then, I'm speculating. Everyone here is more or less speculating. We've been speculating back and forth for 4 pages now.

The thing that I think we all need to keep in mind is that just because someone is pointing out the ways in which the lore may make something difficult, does not meanÂ that they are saying that the lore makes it impossible; there seems to be a large amount of blending of those two concepts when it comes to arguments on the forums. I can't speak for everyone, but at least as far as I can tell, the dissenting side is not saying, "no non-hyur / elezen dragons ever ever ever, go die if you think otherwise," they're just saying, "there are some real, noticeable, tangible road-blocks in this concept that you should take care to navigate."

To go back to the previously-mentioned language of Selling It, or coming up with a Good Excuse, what we're trying to get across is that acknowledging road blocks can make your sales pitch better. Things aren't discredited immediately because there just so happens to be an interpretation or evidence to the contrary, there are ways to work around this. No one is here to throw tomatoes and shut down character concepts. We're here to try and make said concepts more solid, which in turn makes things easier for people who come later and want to know how to navigate a similar path.

It might sound weird, but we're not seeking to sink ships here. If anything, we're testing the hulls to make sure they're as unsinkable as possible.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 02:28 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:25 AM)Oli! Wrote: That seems to be far from "all of Ishgard's borders being policed by outsiders" to me. Hiring two or three outsiders seems quite plausible, especially if the state wants to maximize the amount of competent people killing dragons.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read Sounsy's follow-up post on what Gatewardens were in 1.0.

Quote:I can't speak for everyone, but at least as far as I can tell, the dissenting side is not saying, "no non-hyur / elezen dragons ever ever ever, go die if you think otherwise,"

This has been said on multiple pages of this thread.

I certainly don't need to be told there are significant obstacles to overcome; with all due respect, given my history as the player of this character, I'm confident I am more keenly aware of them (and their workarounds) than almost anyone else on this forum. That is why I do my best to educate the few prospective miqo'te dragoons who pop into this forum or the Ishgard RP LS; to both help educate them on their decision and to step in before they dip a toe into these exact shark-filled waters.

Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 02:29 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:24 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:20 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:17 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: That's why using the what you read, rather than what you see, is the better basis.

You're right, which is why instead of saying:

"There are no NPCs to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

I will say:

"There is no lore to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

Sure there is. Play one and go through the dragoon questline. Nobody acts as if what's going on is extraordinary at all. After you complete the questline, no NPC you come across behaves as if you're unusual.

That in itself is lore.Â

There's no evidence that suggests any race isn't represented among dragoons or plausible as being an upstanding citizen of Ishgard.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ergo, you can't rationally conclude that they aren't allowed simply because the game doesn't tell you they ARE allowed. The game's dialogues lack any indication of it not being acceptable or ordinary.

If we're going to BS it and cram the MSQ in there, canonically the WoL is a midlander man, so no, that is not part of lore.

(09-01-2015, 02:28 AM)Valeera Wrote: I certainly don't need to be told their are significant obstacles to overcome; with all due respect, given my history as the player of this character, I'm confident I am more keenly aware of them than almost anyone else on this forum.

That's great, but this thread is about roleplaying dragoons, so we'll discuss roleplaying dragoons.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 02:31 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:28 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:25 AM)Oli! Wrote: That seems to be far from "all of Ishgard's borders being policed by outsiders" to me. Hiring two or three outsiders seems quite plausible, especially if the state wants to maximize the amount of competent people killing dragons.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read Sounsy's follow-up post on what Gatewardens were in 1.0.

I don't actually see it. Could you highlight the post for me? I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, I'm just really not sure what you're referring to.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 02:33 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:31 AM)Oli! Wrote: I don't actually see it. Could you highlight the post for me? I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, I'm just really not sure what you're referring to.

Post #80

(09-01-2015, 02:29 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: That's great, but this thread is about roleplaying dragoons, so we'll discuss roleplaying dragoons.

Do you mean roleplaying them correctly, or with superpowers they have never been shown to have? Smile

Zelmanov · **09-01-2015, 02:34 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:24 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:20 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:17 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: That's why using the what you read, rather than what you see, is the better basis.

You're right, which is why instead of saying:

"There are no NPCs to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

I will say:

"There is no lore to support the idea of a miqo'te dragoon."

Sure there is. Play one and go through the dragoon questline. Nobody acts as if what's going on is extraordinary at all. After you complete the questline, no NPC you come across behaves as if you're unusual.

That in itself is lore.Â

There's no evidence that suggests any race isn't represented among dragoons or plausible as being an upstanding citizen of Ishgard.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ergo, you can't rationally conclude that they aren't allowed simply because the game doesn't tell you they ARE allowed. The game's dialogues lack any indication of it not being acceptable or ordinary.

In all due respect, while your argument is correct, using the job questline weakens your aurgment. the Dragoon questline deals with the exceptions of the exceptions. You are the 2nd Azure dragoon when there should ONLY BE ONE. Given the religious nature of Ishgard, if Halone chose a Miqo'te to be the Azure Dragoon, they sure as hell would shut up

NOT ONLY THAT. But Estienien has to clarify around 30 times in the MSQ (If you go as Dragoon) that you are Azure Dragoon, and that is clarifications to People like AYMERIC, so it is clear VERY FEW PEOPLE know who or what you are. To everyone else, you are just a lance wielding schmo.

Any plot that directly relates to what the main character in the MSQ or job quests can get away with has to be analyzed under immense scrutiny for a case of exceptionalism.

Which is what the Dragoon job quests are PLAGUED WITH.

It is the reason why Paladins are so comfortable with their job definitions and Dragoons get a 10 page discussion like this every few months.

It has gotten easier with Heavensward, but it is still VERY HARD to separate what is just a quality of BAHAMUT KILLER, WOL and every day schmuck of the same job title.

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