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Sahja Elahka · **09-09-2015, 07:08 PM**

So primarily a "bad guy" player here and it really boils down to three sets

1) The criminal character.Â This is where you OoC know your character is a bad guy.Â But they are a full character, and therefore have reasons to believe that they are not a bad guy.Â For exampleÂ "Everyone works for their money, my thievery is no different.Â If I can take their money without getting caught, then I earned it."

This seems to be what most people are trying to do.Â The important part is that ICly they are not a bad guy in their own eyes.Â So no real point in telling people OoCly that your character is a criminal.

2) The Story Villain. these characters are a lot of fun to be but they exist only in their contained bubble.Â You don't expect kefka to just waltz into the quicksand without causing a problem.Â And since everyone else's RP may not recognize you as a villain, it makes playing a story villain very contained.

Pros: More freedom to be a villain, power levels vary on story
cons: Less RP variability.

3) The goon.Â The rando bad guy that exists for that scene.Â The bandit who stops the caravan, the corrupt brass blade hassling merchants.Â Most of the time they stay in this category because the either die, or get turned in to the authorities and then its done.Â Every now and then they'll move to group 2.Â But the important part with the goon is that no one cares where their parents are from unless it matters right now in the scene.Â So they're easier to make and play because of the (seemingly) 2 dimensional aspect.

Warren Castille · **09-09-2015, 07:34 PM**

(09-08-2015, 10:45 PM)Aaron Wrote: In a realistic scenario disregarding you can't kill my character without my consent plot armor, this villians could actually embarrass my character, Â ruin his life or even kill him! Isn't that neat!? 8D I better be careful! "

Emphasizing this, because it's also a fundamental part of playing a villain. This right here? It goes both ways. Yes, you will be outnumbered because you're the sole villain arching an FC. Yes, you'll have to come up with excellent reasons you don't just get bashed in the head and arrested. But these have to be excellent reasons. Plot-armor isn't fun to run into on either side of the coin, but there's a fine art in making your players feel they could have stopped you if only they'd thought or acted faster, instead of saying "And then I popped a scroll of instant warp and vanished, nyah nyah good is dumb."

A key part of being ahead of your heroes is actually being able to be ahead of your heroes without relying on deus ex machina style reasons to get away. When dealing with hero/villain roleplay, somebody has to lose. If it's constantly the heroes, and it's constantly because "I had a plan, so I escape" it becomes unfun, which leads to the death of RP.

Mcglory · **09-11-2015, 06:45 PM**

This subject, or one that blend into this, came up recently in an GW2 RP discussion.Â
There aren't loads of 'villains' as such, but there is quite a lot of criminals there. Muggers and that kind of thing. I've dabbled in criminal sorts, and it's been great when it works. Definitely something you shouldn't give up on.

I've not had experience with the community yet, but the same principles apply in any MMO really...

The character doesn't have to be evil at his core. Kingpin from the new daredevil series is a perfect example of this. He wants to heal the city, he loves it, but he's willing to go to extreme lengths to see this through. Your villain could be grandiose like this, but it's really up to you. If you play the character carefully, you can bring out his other qualities, other than the 'Muhahaha' side of things.Â

If you're only trying to trick people or draw them into evil plots, a lot might shy away from RP'ing with your character. Personally I like my characters getting one-up'd and bested. (Failure is often more fun to RP than Victory in my book) and so will others, you've just got to find them, but if you're willing to RP legitimate things, maybe try employing people for legal tasks and this sort of thing, you can draw in more people, and they will be more receptive to you in other areas, OOC and IC. Your character doesn't have to be being a 'bad guy' all the time. He might just want a drink in a tavern!

One of the reasons a villain as has been mentioned, is because there are so many 'heros'.
But thing is, these heroes haven't had chance to show that IC, other than having tales to tell, they've often not had the opportunityÂ to best a real life IC baddie. So this is their chance and they'll go full tilt to show they really are heroes, often stepping over you to do so. You just have to use discernment as to who you will expose yourself to. Play it smart is all you can do, some will slip through!

Think hard about his end goals, especially if they are a big picture kind of guy. I've seen/found that the villain plots work best when it's not the 'baddie' trying to kill the 'goodie' If the villains objective is something more devious, and something that isn't life and death, he can succeed or fail without that being the end of the RP. Character death is often a powerful way to end, but it is an end, so make sure you're okay with what's going on. In the middle of the plot with other character, talking a little OOC is healthy as at least you have an idea about each others expectations.

Often the villains have caused a lot of OOC trouble in my experience. This is often because, like the hero, they want to 'win', however you want to interpretÂ this, sometimes even treating it more like pvp than RP. It's about winning and losing, rather than making a fun and engaging story. Personally I feel villains have to be open to the logical consequenses of their actions, as they are the ones normally initiating a hostile action that effects other players, they especially need to be able to take there own medicine.

Sorry for the long post! Hopefully didn't repeat myself to much.

industrythirteen · **09-11-2015, 08:24 PM**

I'm going to echo what a lot of folks have said here. It's a crap shoot, and it's work. It's a lot of work, and it can take an emotional toll on the player playing the 'bad guy' if they're not prepared for it because there will be miscommunications, and there will be times where players are on the defensive. The good news is there are few behaviors that can help. They certainly won't negate the potential for out-of-character drama, but they could minimize it.Â

Two things, and these are going to sound very contradictory, but bare with me.Â

Do not tell people OOC that the character is a 'bad guy' or a criminal, or up to no good. This is something that can be discussed with good friends for a laugh, or people that want to tell a larger story; players that are on your side, that can help you play a better villain if they're down for it. Your own personal hype-man, so to speak. Telling people you are not familiar with, immediately, up front, like that is going to color the way people treat the character right off the bat without them ever interacting with them. I don't think this can be helped under most circumstances. This is roleplay, show me, don't tell me, basically. Let the behavior of the character speak for the character. Criminals rarely ever announce "I am a criminal!" either, so that is something I'd avoid in-character too. The character will gain a reputation through actions and behavior, so be prepared for it. Even keep a list of players and their characters that you interact with in a villainous way. Take notes!Â

Whomever is playing the bad guy, however, does need to communicate with people. I recommend OOC contact with players at all stages, saying what you'd like the character to get up, ask what the other person if they're like to get involved, and what they are or aren't comfortable with, because this is basically setting up a scene for not only entertaining yourselves, but other people around you. If you both can't agree on how you want things to go, what the goal is, then walk away. Walk away from anything that doesn't make you, the player, feel comfortable. This allows both players to engage in behavior that is choreographed and controlled, but without the other players (and their characters) around you knowing. Super mysterious! This is good for general brawls and fights, too.Â

If for some reason a bunch of characters, or players, come up to you and are all up in your face about something, and you're very confused, send them a tell first. Ask them why they are doing what they are doing so you know what to expect. A roleplayer on the defensive is a very, very ugly thing, and frankly it sucks all the fun out of the roleplay if someone is feeling attacked, in-character, or out, and whether they think it is or isn't justified. There is no fourth wall because while we are all playing characters, there is a real person behind that character, and their leisure activity should not be a source of distress for them, whether they are playing a villain, or not.Â

Some players like torturing the shit out of their characters, others don't. The key is to just be up front about your intentions, what you want, and depending on the type of villain your'e playing (examples in others posts) be prepared to either adapt and evolve, or shelf the character for good.

Necromion · **09-13-2015, 04:42 AM**

Well... some of you may have met my character and even roleplayed with me in game, and while I know I tend to follow the villian stereotype at times, I try to keep Xel in a state of balance and flux, where he isnt evil, but he isnt good either. I try to keep him morally ambiguous, where you cant tell if he has truly done something wrong or if he innocent in all things.Â

Now that being said, If your going to do something as a proper villain you should do it subtly or have a pawn or patsy do it so that way it is harder to trace back to your character. this also allows you to involve multiple character ties with other players. You could also branch out to players of people who play corrupt characters in the city guard and other aspects that way you have other ways out should someone try to pointlessly kill your character. I mean yes I expect one day Xel to die by the hands of a pc, Ive even told one or two players how to do it oocly but also those are people I trust at an ooc level, so your mileage may vary.

V'aleera · **09-14-2015, 04:37 AM**

One important thing to note that a character doesn't necessarily need to be a villain (in the stricter, conventional sense of the word) to be a good antagonist. For example, during her time in Ul'dah V'aleera would often assume a particularly antagonistic stance toward Ul'dahn characters and NPCs.

In particular, the frequent clashes between her and the Brass Blades were less a matter of a villain coming down upon the good guys with ill intent, and moreso deadly games of "cops and robbers" where both sides thought they were the cops.

Hammersmith · **09-14-2015, 09:34 AM**

I'm a fan of the slow, saturatingly evil type. Â The slow burn that drags everyone else along with them.

Real evil isn't mustache twiddling. Â It's making people make bad choices, over and OVER until they start reaching for the bad choices FIRST and the 'good' ones second. It's the vizier, it's the quiet, too wise wizard in the corner.

It's the charismatic warlord that starts as a bandit and ends up an emperor. (Ghengis Khan anyone? Â Current record holder for human genocide? Killed about 10% of the entire human population that existed during his lifetime (according to low estimates)? And yet there's a statue of this guy out n the steppes.)

A person who leads or guides so well and so seamlessly that everyone THINKS it's a good idea to go along, for good or ill (Spoilers: for Ill)

Real evil's making everyone else envy you having those bad options available and wanting to reach for those bad options as well. Â Real evil is also envy of evil.

Well done evil, not a one off villain of the week, means not tipping your hand that you're a bomb that's leaking nerve gas micro-litre by micro-litre. Â It means you marshal and hunt the weak and the spiritually poor and you -plunder- them as human resources.

Which is problematic in RP play. Â The Long Game takes time. The best of it you'll see in RP is a microcosm of Bad News rolling in and getting people behind thinking that Bad Things Might Just Work Out Well.

And people mistake you for the good guy until it's way, way too late, or never STOP seeing you as the good guy, which makes it all the more bizzare.

Because humans are -terrible things-.

But it can be -rull- fun.

Ignacius · **09-14-2015, 09:35 AM**

(09-08-2015, 06:57 PM)That Guy Wrote: This is a discussion my friends and I have often. Because I'm still avoiding productivity, I figured I'd try bringing it here.

How hard is it for rpers to rp 'bad guys?' I see a lot of Robin Hoods but very, very few 'true' criminal characters. At first I couldn't figure out why until a friend tried rping one.

People do NOT like their characters being tricked. I didn't realize how much till a friend of my tried rping a 'villain' character. Even though Icly no one had any reason to be wary of him, oocly they saw that he was a criminal via his character tag.

You could see the change in their rp when it was noticed. Suddenly the character would become wary of my friend, even though they had no reason to be so. Even the most naive PC's would get a 'dark vibe' from him and instantly be on alert. Occasionally he'd even get harassed by bounty hunter rpers even though he specifically put down that his bounty was based off a false aliases and to please whisper him for more information. It was ridiculous and he eventually quit the character because no one was able to separate ooc knowledge from ic.

So I guess my question is, what do you do? I am really interested in playing a darker character but now I'm terrified because I don't want every hero in Eorzea treating them like some spam-able mob that's just there for their 'good-guy' to kick around. I don't mind them loosing every now and then. No one is so awesome they win forever. However I also don't want my character to be pariah because people can't keep OOC knowledge out of IC.

Did my friend just have bad luck? Are their guilds out there designed specifically for this? Or will I just have to be careful about who I let know about my character's more darker aspects?

Hey, my specialist subject!

A lot of people think playing a villain is too much work for no gain, but ONLY if you think of a villain as a "bad guy". Â And that's not the case. Â Playing a character villain and playing one in the long-term (not just playing someone's story bad guy) means doing a different set of character work. Â I'll explain...

When you think of villains in stories, long running villains, they have a few things in common. Â First, they prioritize survival. Â They are cunning before they're brutish. Â Most of all, though, they have genuine reasons for why they are what they are and why they do what they do. Â At this point, I'm going to recommend you queue up all five seasons of The Wire and watch them. Â David Simon knows how to write villains, for sure, so that you relate to them.

Then you get into the actual character work. Â Your character is going to need a reason to be around. Â Hero characters will go and inform the authorities of your existence, so you absolutely NEED a reason for the government to want you around. Â You need contacts, deep contacts, ones that penetrate the heart of poor society and the government alike. Â You need to be able to keep your activities quiet enough that people can't protect your character anymore.

What you're aiming for is to become a figure of the landscape, someone that paragon-style characters go to when they need something morally ambiguous done. Â You want to become that series-after-series villain, the one that becomes the lesser-of-two-evils, the devil-they-know. Â That takes a lot of subtlety, but that's alright, because that's how it's done in real life!

Just remember the simple rules: Â don't kill anyone's player character unless you can, for absolutely sure, get away with it. Â People will stretch the bounds of reality to know IC what they know OOC if you kill a player character. Â Make sure they know, though, that you WILL kill them, so they know not to mess with you. Â Make sure you have a crew around to talk to and DEFINITELY make connections with the other criminal elements, no matter how small, in your scene.

Leave your twirly mustache at home. Â Running that kind of villain doesn't work unless you have a sympathetic part of OOC players who will take your safety as the gospel. Â Instead, make sure you fit into the fabric of RP society somehow. Â You can be a lalafel-eating monster and still get a permanent chair at the RP table if you can fit your character into a niche in society. Â If you're playing a demon-infused serial killer, you're a Power Rangers clay doll, not Stringer Bell.

Just watch how you play. Â If you want instruction on how to do all this on Gilgamesh, let me know. Â I'm getting Orleans off the ground here as a criminal kingpin, and he's definitely not a nice guy.

SaintEaon · **09-14-2015, 10:41 AM**

It really depends I guess. In general in games like Final Fantasy, EQ2,and SWG was like this to some extent its hard to RP bad guys because a decent enough number of people don't want to "lose". I find myself in a situation currently where my character is definitely the bad guy in an RP that's taking place between my character and three others. Even though two of the three of them have been RPing with me for months I'm not sure how they'll respond to having my character be the "Bad guy".

I guess the starting thing is their relationship has always been very manipulative, so when my character hires people to try and manipulate their thoughts on another character I get worried because A) Some of the characters I hired have my former FC's tag in their name, its almost a dead OOC give away that I hired them even though ICly they wouldn't know, and B) Will this or because they don't want to lose their plot or damage it in some way, will they even bother letting it affect their RP. I mean if they didn't that would be super unfair to me right? Especially since we've had our characters be this way for over three months, so to for the sake of a new RPer basically decide my character's actions don't matter would be really bad and hurtful honestly. Its saying they only want to RP with me when its going their way, and the reason I'm even talking about this because that's the point I'm gonna bring up.

Everybody wants to win, and because of the way the game works, they'll do shit to make sure they win.

And I know what you're thinking "Not everyone tries to "win" " But more specifically they do what they can to make sure their plots don't get "messed up". This can be a variety of things from OOCly refusing to RP a group of people trying to kill them or having their RP partners ignore false accusations made to slander their character. Things I've seen is people getting mugged or jumped refusing to RP until help "accidentally" wonders into them if they feel outnumbered. There's always the classic "Even though I'm alone and unexpecting it someone pulled a gun on me and I immediately responded with Bruce Lee like instincts to handle the situation." To just kind of annoying stuff like people not Roleplaying like a gun in your face is some how less deadly so you shouldn't be afraid of it. And some people do have reasons for all these things. But if we go back to the example I provided above, the reason that RP is happening is because my character had to live with the choices and actions of others. Me, the RPer wasn't happy about it, but that's the way it is sometime, my plot was changed because of someone else's actions. Is it fair to me if to preserve their plot they ignore my character's reactions to them changing his?Â

The answer is no, but most people work very, very hard on their plots and in order to get the result they want OOCly will ignore bad things ICly no matter how compelling. If I pay several other Miqo'te girls to go accuse a girl's new boyfriend of rape and abuse ICly and OOCly they know its not true and they want a happy ending or a certain development to take place OOCly, very often ICly they'll ignore it or find some reason to not care even if its going on blind faith for their lover they've been with all of a week and known all of two weeks. There are some good RPers who wont do this (in fact I wouldn't make the generalization and say most people won't RP correctly), however it happens enough to where anytime an RP like this comes up I'm uncomfortable with it immediately because I feel like its too easy to tell the bad guy that what he does, doesn't matter.

Clarification edit:
By refusing to RP I don't mean not RPing at all persay, but either running away immediately without RP or posting incredibly slow until help from an FC or LS arrives, then when the tables turn expect you to RP because "Calling for help is something they'd do." Even though they gave you no chance to stop it or way to know it was coming.

Further Edit: (Because I'm waiting for Blueprints to print)

Another issue I have is say my people I've been RPing with are okay with RPing the bad things my character does. What if their new friend isn't? What if he refuses to RP the bad things my character does because he doesn't like it? That puts our mutual friend in an awkward spot? They've been wanting this new plot for awhile, to they recton their older friend and their character's history with him out? That's unfair and I don't think they'd do that, but do the then tell me "Hey we're gonna ignore the slander/blackmail/assassins and if you want to RP with us, despite our months of preexisting RP you can either be okay with this new development or we'll not RP anymore.

These are the problems I have with being the bad guy, all it takes is one person not willing to "lose" or be endanger of losing something and they will inflict all that they're afraid of on the villain who often put as much or more work into being the counter force to the plot. I mean for this story if they told me what I did didn't matter, I'd have at least 4 or 5 other players I'd have to tell not to RP something they've been planning for at least two days. I ICly had to investigate to learn this other character's name I didn't know OOCly and didn't ask, I had to do that organically so the time investigating was lost. The planning ICly and OOCly is lost, and my character and what he does/stands for is told it doesn't matter. This guy OOCly probably didn't know what he was getting into when he chose the RP he chose, but just because you don't know all of your partner's friends and who they are, does that mean if you don't like them you can tell them they don't count or refuse to RP with them? Some people honestly might, and enough people do to where I'm here ranting off examples of why playing the bad guy makes me anxious.

Here's another good question. What if the new guy refuses to RP it and my friend trying to compromise says "Look I'm going to remain in this situation with him but we can still RP and still do everything we were before but ICly our relationship will be different." Well that's not exactly okay either because you're telling me the entire reason my character became the bad guy in the first place OOCly he can't change and I just have to live with it as I become a second priority in a plot in all respects I should be a main character in. Not the main characters that'd be my friend and her friend, but considering our past and my character he's up there.

Post Lunch Edit:

Another issue I think tends to hinder bad guys or villains is /random. This effectively says that it doesn't matter that I'm a 200 Pound man in full suit of plate mail carrying a great sword the size of tiny Miqo'te dancer girl's entirely unarmored body, tiny little dancer girl has the exact same chance of winning in a threatening encounter, or getting away free of any real damage. Sometimes you'll get lucky and /tell someone and be able to work out not using /random, but if I'm in a situation where I go up to a bisexual courtesian catboy with zero combat experience who's trying to make money and tell him for messing with my girls I'm going to kill him, and he just immediately goes into combat because despite having a seasoned veteran warrior who got the jump on him because /random can bail him out is horrid.

In short I think the fact he game's mechanics of FCs/PMs/Linkshells, as well as the reliance on /random really hinders a good villain. Villains already had a hard time because no one wants to have "bad stuff" happen to their plots and ideas but then when you have in game and relied on methods of RP that make it even harder for a well thought out, well prepared villain to beat even the most under equipped and meek of opponents/enemies is just borderline unfair.

That Guy · **09-14-2015, 11:48 PM**

First I would like to thank everyone for their posts. Truly, it means a lot that the community has come together and offered help on the subject. It all certainly has given me some food for thought. The consensus I seem to be getting is:

A) Don't be so obviously evil that your mustache twirls itself
B) Don't throw it around that your character is on the darker side of things
C) Be careful who you rp that aspect of your character with.Â

There were a lot of other good points but these three seem to be the most agreed upon.Â

That being said, If I can't twirl my mustache, talk about my evil deeds, or rp with any passer by ...how do I make rp connections?

Maybe narrowing down the scope of the conversation will help at least my particular problem. My character is a villain but only to a select group. I rp a heretic hunter however NO ONE wants their character caught. I'm allowed to hunt them, harass them, but never actually catch them. On one hand I understand. Its basically a death sentence for a lot of characters. I don't want to put someone in the position where they have to kill their character for the story to make sense. On the other hand that makes me the worst heretic hunter ever lol.Â

It's especially a problem because most seem to think my character will change his mind once they spill their tragic background. No, I'm sorry. My dude is hard core, hail Halone, Ishgard. He will not show mercy. If he catches you he will not let you go just because you claim to be innocent.Â

So how can I work around that? Is there a LS specifically for making these kind of connections? So far Ishgard RP has been awesome but after reading this I'm kinda terrified to announce my character hunts heretics. I don't want to be branded a pariah by the community. I'm fine with being quiet. But I don't know how to do that AND make connections. Maybe post something in the RPC?

Okay I manned up and put something in the connections bit of the RPC. *takes deep breath and forces self out of corner*

Askier · **09-15-2015, 12:25 AM**

To play the Devil's advocate..

GET IT?Â

Moving on...

I know everyone has generally gone with the realistic, slowly developed character option. The slow burn if you will.Â The human villain.

If you intend for your character to have lots of interactions with people, playing them in such a way is safer, certainly, and more realistic, since most people don't do evil for the sake of evil.

However, and all this is from personal experience.

As someone whose character roster is 100 percent villains (most of which are dead) there are benefits for playing the larger than life villains.

No one seems to talk about how amazingly dynamic a baddie can be for people's rp. A subtle villain can influence people and create rivalries but a full, bat shit crazy villain out to crush the world, or a city, gets people stirred up in a hurry because, in the end, we're all a bunch of drama dorks and the idea of saving the -something- from an evil villain is a TON of fun cause it creates an easy enemy for people to gather against.

I used to rp a certain evil villain miqo'te who was..well very direct with his goals of killing basically EVERYONE.Â He would tell you, polity, he would kill you and was sadistic enough to mentally break people with mind games.

Sure, he had NO friends IC (okay he had ONE Garlean buddy).Â But you will meet soooo many great people OOC that will tell you they enjoy meeting other people while trying to stop your villain that's it become worth your character having so few friends because you are playing a VITAL roll in rp.Â The antagonist.Â

No character can grow without conflict and by being openly evil, you make it easy for people to find that conflict which makes their characters really develop.

I consider playing a villain a pleasure, but also a much needed roll that not everyone will or, even can fill, based on their personalities or characters.Â Cause, honestly, most people rp their character as the hero as their stories.Â Its just how they roll.Â But, some sadists like myself, get more pleasure out of making baddies for people to end up defeating because we enjoy having everyone chasing us like a bad game of tag and we enjoy giving. Because in the end, people who play villains are really stepping in to the shadows to help others people's characters shine brighter.

Just my two cents.

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 01:13 AM**

(09-15-2015, 12:25 AM)Askier Wrote: To play the Devil's advocate..

GET IT?Â

Moving on...

I know everyone has generally gone with the realistic, slowly developed character option. The slow burn if you will.Â The human villain.

If you intend for your character to have lots of interactions with people, playing them in such a way is safer, certainly, and more realistic, since most people don't do evil for the sake of evil.

However, and all this is from personal experience.

As someone whose character roster is 100 percent villains (most of which are dead) there are benefits for playing the larger than life villains.

No one seems to talk about how amazingly dynamic a baddie can be for people's rp. A subtle villain can influence people and create rivalries but a full, bat shit crazy villain out to crush the world, or a city, gets people stirred up in a hurry because, in the end, we're all a bunch of drama dorks and the idea of saving the -something- from an evil villain is a TON of fun cause it creates an easy enemy for people to gather against.

I used to rp a certain evil villain miqo'te who was..well very direct with his goals of killing basically EVERYONE.Â He would tell you, polity, he would kill you and was sadistic enough to mentally break people with mind games.

Sure, he had NO friends IC (okay he had ONE Garlean buddy).Â But you will meet soooo many great people OOC that will tell you they enjoy meeting other people while trying to stop your villain that's it become worth your character having so few friends because you are playing a VITAL roll in rp.Â The antagonist.Â

No character can grow without conflict and by being openly evil, you make it easy for people to find that conflict which makes their characters really develop.

I consider playing a villain a pleasure, but also a much needed roll that not everyone will or, even can fill, based on their personalities or characters.Â Cause, honestly, most people rp their character as the hero as their stories.Â Its just how they roll.Â But, some sadists like myself, get more pleasure out of making baddies for people to end up defeating because we enjoy having everyone chasing us like a bad game of tag and we enjoy giving. Because in the end, people who play villains are really stepping in to the shadows to help others people's characters shine brighter.

Just my two cents.

Yeah, I think there's a role for both kinds of villains, so long as the people playing the heroes are capable of recognizing how the villain accentuates their character's personality and development. A good foil is necessary for a protagonist to really grow to their fullest extent.

Personally, my villains are all NPCs. Most people do not seem to have a problem with losing to them as long as there is a sense of progress in the storyline. If they lost constantly, I understand how they'd become fatigued. While I try to have villains that are ultimately likable and have understandable motivations, I also want at least one completely monstrous character in every story, barring times when it'd be inappropriate or if people were getting tired of them.

And when I mean monstrous, I mean someone you'd really *love* to hate. Not just a character who annoys you and has hard to understand motivations, or constantly obstructs the heroes' goals for no real reason. It's best in my opinion when the monstrous character is villainous in a way that directly offends the belief system of the hero.

That Guy · **09-15-2015, 01:18 AM**

Hmmmm....considering all this I might make an alt. One who is more the 'bad guy just doing his job' while the other is all about that mustache. Its something to consider.Â

Honestly I'm just enjoying the conversation ^^. Its interesting to read the viewpoints.

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 09:50 AM**

I would advise against making a mustache-twirling villain for one very significant reason: you're playing the result. Â I cannot stress how hard this is to overcome for RP purposes. Â The problem here is that people are saying there's a difference between a "villain" and a "criminal" when those are exactly the same thing. Â Criminals, even Robin Hood types doing their best, are still violent and taking wealth that technically belongs to someone else. Â It's definitely wrong.

A criminal is just a better thought-out character, and it seems like there are a lot of people here saying that having a good self-respecting reason to commit crimes and do bad things somehow makes them different classes of character. Â It doesn't, it just means you've provided the background. Â You've gone beyond "I play a bad guy" into "I play a thief who didn't have any money, looked at all the people with money around, and simply rationalized that he was taking money from people who were taking money their own way."

It's the difference between playing a "beautiful" character and an "elegant, voluptuous character with a charming and polite manner". Â The former tells you what you're aiming for, the latter is actually a character. Â I believe we're having this conversation elsewhere.

If you're playing a villain specifically to play a villain, you're working backwards from a result, and your character is going to reflect that. Â It's far better to build a human character; you'll have a lot more detail. Â Other characters will have different ways to relate to that character. Â Most importantly, that character is going to make a whole Hell of a lot more sense.

Even if your character is meant to be an evil-doing evil demon doing evil for evil's sake, he needs a reason. Â If not, he's a cartoon villain, and you're skipping some 95% of the character work.

If you want to make someone morally ambiguous, you need to say why. Â You need to say how. Â You need to give him a personality. Â You want to generate some conflict? Â Your person doesn't need to be a "villain" he needs to be "confrontational", "bitter", "vindictive". Â You can build a remarkably frightening, but remarkably understandable, villain that way.

Always make sure that, if you're going in blank trying to slide into a niche, and you're aiming to be a villain, don't make that part of your character concept. Â A cardboard-cutout villain isn't really a character anymore, he's a prop.

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 10:13 AM**

That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

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Playing the badguy

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