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Ehzo'ir Tyaka · **08-26-2015, 01:04 PM**

So the answer is really "Even if you could, you shouldn't"? That makes a lot of sense. Sel is a good person, so even if he was tempted with that power I guess he would turn it down.

LiadansWhisper · **08-26-2015, 01:09 PM**

(08-26-2015, 12:52 PM)Selarian Cloverbloom Wrote: Please forgive my newbie question, as I have not done the story quests for these yet, but I was wondering...

Why is it that no one can be a BLM or WHM now? I read somewhere else that it is frowned upon by the lore people, and I am curious. Also, even if one could become a BLM or WHM in character, is it mutually exclusive? Selarian has the dream of mastering both Thaumatergy and Conjuration, and the natural step would be for him to become both a BLM and WHM, but I don't want to break lore.

You can, of course, play what you like. No one can tell you that you can't. However, the reason playing either is frowned upon is that you need to both acknowledge the limitations governing access to each Job AND find a way around them to be lore-compliant.

For instance, if you don't somehow get a hold of a Black Mage soulstone, if/when you try to use Black Magic, you explode. And White Magic is apparently held in trust by the Padjal of the Shroud, and they are not entrusting it to mortals (past the Warrior of Light).

Of course it's important to note that Conjure is NOT White Magic, or even related to it. Similarly, Â Thaumaturgy is NOT Black Magic. So if your character dreams of mastering both, it actually doesn't follow that he or she would thus become both a Black Mage and a White Mage. In fact, it doesn't follow that he'd become either one, as they do not demonstrate a mastery in either school of magic.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **08-26-2015, 01:11 PM**

(08-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Selarian Cloverbloom Wrote: So the answer is really "Even if you could, you shouldn't"? That makes a lot of sense. Sel is a good person, so even if he was tempted with that power I guess he would turn it down.

Sorta. There are a lot of hoops to go through.

You'll find in the game that White Magic is still around! ...Just...highly regulated and only the Padjal (a race of the Black Shroud's Elementals' own making) are allowed to know how to use it. It's a HUGE deal when the main-character gets a WHM Soul Stone.

Likewise, it's also a HUGE deal when the main-character learns about Black Magic, as anyone else in that situation would have likely been gaoled immediately. (You'll see in the game).

Many of the jobs have a lot of history backing them. (Paladin and Dragoon are good examples here) Many are lost or formerly dead/dying arts that are being brought back into use. (Warrior, Scholar, Summoner, Bard).

Ehzo'ir Tyaka · **08-26-2015, 01:13 PM**

Oh, well that makes things a lot more convenient then. I know game mechanic=/=lore mechanic, but I had assumed that the pinnacle of Thaumatergy and Conjuration was Black and white magic. Â Interesting. I will have to adjust some of my wording while RPing then.

Sin · **08-26-2015, 01:13 PM**

(08-26-2015, 12:52 PM)Selarian Cloverbloom Wrote: Please forgive my newbie question, as I have not done the story quests for these yet, but I was wondering...

Why is it that no one can be a BLM or WHM now? I read somewhere else that it is frowned upon by the lore people, and I am curious. Also, even if one could become a BLM or WHM in character, is it mutually exclusive? Selarian has the dream of mastering both Thaumatergy and Conjuration, and the natural step would be for him to become both a BLM and WHM, but I don't want to break lore.

Hey!

Newbie question forgiven as that's the purpose of this thread I think.

Alright, so there's a misconception in the question that I need to address.

First things first... People can be BLMs and Whms. It can happen. It has happened. In the past there was entire nations of these people walking around.

It's not lore breaking to be a BLM or a WHM.

So why do lore people frown on it?

They frown on it because they are extremely rare. In the case of BLM the art has been largely forgotten, and is in most cases outright illegal, and any spread of its knowledge is -actively- policed. In the case of WHM, it's knowledge is guarded by a race of very very stingy people. They don't want to teach you.

Can that be worked around? Yes. In a myriad of ways, a ton. Seriously, only your imagination limits you in how you can explain your character's acquisition of a knowledge long forbidden and forgotten.

Why do people still frown at it then?

Well, because explaining away how your character got around those limitations is never done for the majority of characters in a satisfactory way. And those characters are never role played in a way that really showcases these jobs as portrayed in the lore. And finally, the desire to adds these characteristics to the character is usually an indicator of poor character building skills, shoving cool-looking things into a character needlessly to make the character more special-- mary sueish and overpowered.

LiadansWhisper · **08-26-2015, 01:16 PM**

(08-26-2015, 01:13 PM)Sin Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 12:52 PM)Selarian Cloverbloom Wrote: Please forgive my newbie question, as I have not done the story quests for these yet, but I was wondering...

Why is it that no one can be a BLM or WHM now? I read somewhere else that it is frowned upon by the lore people, and I am curious. Also, even if one could become a BLM or WHM in character, is it mutually exclusive? Selarian has the dream of mastering both Thaumatergy and Conjuration, and the natural step would be for him to become both a BLM and WHM, but I don't want to break lore.

Hey!

Newbie question forgiven as that's the purpose of this thread I think.

Alright, so there's a misconception in the question that I need to address.

First things first... People can be BLMs and Whms. It can happen. It has happened. In the past there was entire nations of these people walking around.

It's not lore breaking to be a BLM or a WHM.

So why do lore people frown on it?

They frown on it because they are extremely rare. In the case of BLM the art has been largely forgotten, and is in most cases outright illegal, and any spread of its knowledge is -actively- policed. In the case of WHM, it's knowledge is guarded by a race of very very stingy people. They don't want to teach you.

Can that be worked around? Yes. In a myriad of ways, a ton. Seriously, only your imagination limits you in how you can explain your character's acquisition of a knowledge long forbidden and forgotten.

Why do people still frown at it then?

Well, because explaining away how your character got around those limitations is never done for the majority of characters in a satisfactory way. And those characters are never role played in a way that really showcases these jobs as portrayed in the lore. And finally, the desire to adds these characteristics to the character is usually an indicator of poor character building skills, shoving cool-looking things into a character needlessly to make the character more special-- mary sueish and overpowered.

This is also a good, quick explanation. Â As Sin daid, if you can come up with a good explanation as to how and why you've managed to get access to the forbidden art, no one will really look at you funny. Just gotta sell it.

Aya · **08-26-2015, 01:23 PM**

This is not exactly a lore-response, but a more general one.Â There are many areas where an RP character can be designed in ways that feel implausible.Â It is not strictly verboten (nor should it be in my opinion), but such instances can effect how both the character and the player are viewed.Â

Such instances of imagination-stretching should not necessarily just be avoided, but should be carefully considered.Â What does it add the the character?Â What is the player trying to accomplish?Â Is it adding to the tapestry of the character such that it makes her more interesting or more engaging?Â Or is it simply being done to make her more powerful, seem more accomplished, or feel rarer and thus "more special"?

Sounsyy · **08-26-2015, 02:00 PM**

(08-26-2015, 12:52 PM)Selarian Cloverbloom Wrote: Selarian has the dream of mastering both Thaumatergy and Conjuration, and the natural step would be for him to become both a BLM and WHM, but I don't want to break lore.

Folks have already answered your questions, but if you're still curious about the lore, I'll leave a few links below:

War of the Magi Lore
Aftermath of the Great Flood
THM Lore Compilation
CNJ Lore Compilation

Hope this helps! ^^

Lydia Lightfoot · **08-26-2015, 02:32 PM**

Just for the sake of getting rocks hurled at me (shh, I'm trying to make some pretty landscaping and I need the rocks, okay, gosh), would the kind gurus of lore have a read over my V'alka wiki and pelt me with pebbles for every bit that doesn't feel plausible? I'm not worried about Callie's history since it's much simpler (though do feel free to read it if you like, and, at your discretion, either change your job to Squire or equip the Basic Skills set and use Throw Stone at me... haha, Tactics joke).

Sounsyy · **08-26-2015, 02:39 PM**

(08-26-2015, 02:32 PM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: either change your job to Squire or equip the Basic Skills set and use Throw Stone at me... haha, Tactics joke).

This makes me miss when Gatherers/Crafters had stone throw in 1.0. =/

EDIT: Also your wiki info seems solid as far as lore is concerned. Also making her Mycegal's protege works for getting her into the city-state at a time when Ishgard's gates were closed to outsiders.

Lydia Lightfoot · **08-26-2015, 03:10 PM**

(08-26-2015, 02:39 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: EDIT: Also your wiki info seems solid as far as lore is concerned. Also making her Mycegal's protege works for getting her into the city-state at a time when Ishgard's gates were closed to outsiders.

Yay! :D

I guess I'll have to get my own stones!

I'nhalki · **08-27-2015, 07:32 PM**

Hey Calli,

I'm no lore expert by any stretch, but the wiki for V'alka seems solid. Is there anything in particular you're unsure about?Â

The only question that really popped in to my head was why not be a Gridanian lancer/Wood Wailer or just a straight adventuring lancer? The Dragoon aspect seems somewhat tacked-on for a group that has so much clout in Ishgard. It also seems like something that may unnecessarily limit your RP mobility.

From what I understand from quests, Dragoons would be expected to stay in Ishgard to maintain defense of the city. A Dragoon scout would probably be mostly concerned with scouting missions in to dragon territory rather than south toward the other city states, I would imagine. In my own head it just doesn't make sense to send someone who's specific role would be to gather information on and fight dragons during wartime would be sent off to another part of the realm to develop themselves. Maybe she has a personal reason to leave? Maybe she doesn't approve of the war? Lots of room for character development there.

That said, I'm firmly for RPing what you want to RP. I would develop her role and history as a Dragoon in Ishgard a bit more. Maybe someone with more Dragoon lore knowledge can hop in and offer much more detailed advice than I can. With the way each job's story is handled in a kind of special snowflake way, I think it's generally safer and more RP-flexible to go with one of the base classes as an IC specialty. That's just my two gil in the topic. I think the WHM discussions that have cropped up recently touched on that a lot, too.

Edit: I haven't done the 3.0 Dragoon job quests yet, but I do know from the Warrior 3.0 quests that I have done that your trainer has begun to spread the techniques of the Warrior job among soldiers of the Maelstrom. I was just thinking that maybe the 3.0 Dragoon quests may open up the Dragoon lore in a similar way. Again, maybe someone who mains Dragoon can hop in on this.

Lydia Lightfoot · **08-27-2015, 08:25 PM**

Easily answered! Big Grin

Â That specific aspect of her background story is a "cover my bases" element since she's not yet high enough in the MSQ to even access Ishgard (boo gating). Since I'd like to be able to RP her while I'm accomplishing that, I figured I'd come up with an excuse as to why she'd ICly be somewhere like Ul'dah, etc.

That said, she's creeping up on 47 right now, so it won't be too long before she'll push through the gating limitation.

V'aleera · **08-27-2015, 08:46 PM**

(08-27-2015, 07:32 PM)I Wrote: From what I understand from quests, Dragoons would be expected to stay in Ishgard to maintain defense of the city. A Dragoon scout would probably be mostly concerned with scouting missions in to dragon territory rather than south toward the other city states, I would imagine.

This is largely true, and how most of the Ishgardian/dragoon players I know handle the matter. However, dragonkind has spread out all across the face of the continent, even as far as La Noscea. If a character told mine IC that they went on a journey to train their skills against wyrms not just domestic but foreign I feel like that would be believable.

Diskwrite · **10-05-2015, 02:33 PM**

Do we have a list of all the locales visited for the pilgrimage Llymlaen followers take? I've only been able to find 2 locations: Cassiopeia Hollow and Shposhae.

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