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Askier · **06-14-2016, 09:36 AM**

Warren, if pointless loss of life makes you irrational, you must be irrational every day. You act like this sort of horror is uncommon. Every day in Africa and the Middle East, nut cases like this guy kill numerous innocents with car bombs as they go about their lives. Â These events that happen in the western world get covered like they are abnormal. But the sad part is they are not when you look at the world as a whole. Have you read the incidents of mass genocide coming out of Syria or Iraq lately? Â In Iraq mothers are arming themselves with automatic weapons just to keep themselves and their children safe because there is no military or police coming to save them if something happens.

Laws are great till the nut job breaks them. If I'm looking down the barrel of a gun and the person has every intention of using it on me, I'm not going to be thinking of quoting a law he disobeyed. I'm going to be thinking how can I stay alive so I can go home to my family.

Sylastair · **06-14-2016, 09:36 AM**

(06-14-2016, 09:21 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I admit I'm in the dark if there are other, successful cases, but are we that far removed from the Trayvon Martin murder case that we should be encouraging people to shoot threats they determine with no previous training or practice?

I don't know. This whole thing is depressing, and I agree that it shouldn't be used as a platform for politics or agenda. The mass, pointless loss of life drives me a little insane and probably irrational. I don't think the answer is arming everyone though, there's way too many people who'd jump at the chance to play hero and potentially hurt someone else.

Being reactive to hostility means there are always, always going to be casualties. I just wish it was harder for people to go about producing them.

Agreed. The use of this stuff as a platform for a political agenda is why this happens. America leads in gun related crimes because we have the most guns of any other country on the planet, it stems from our heritage, America and bearing arms is about defending against the coming of a tyrannical government. We fought it off before and the 'need' for guns comes out of that. If the US had the most slingshots, I would bet we would be at the top of slingshot related crimes too, the number per capita and size comparing countries makes things very hard to compare.

I think the reason we see so much of this, especially in recent times, is because it works. People begin to argue about gun laws, the rights of guns, the rights of people, and before you know it an already divided and sad group is even more so. The goal of terrorism, whether it's of a lone wolf variety or far more organized is to use fear and low cost, asymmetric tactics to harm your adversary and force change that you want via fear.Â

I think we have a ways to go when it comes to our gun control and drug laws, since personally I think punishments and the severity of them are almost completely backwards. The US however will always be a target for this because certain freedoms offer terrible people room to do terrible things, and the US exists at the forefront of almost all media around the world. Movies, TV, music is seen all over, and American culture touches far more people than other cultures tend to touch us. I think the moment we sacrifice freedoms in the face of fear or safety however we've lost even more of what makes us 'us'.

Aldotsk · **06-14-2016, 09:42 AM**

7 Dead, 33 Injured in Chicago Shootings

:/... Like this is getting a bit out of hand.

I honestly think tragedies like this is not making it a lot easier to sympathize for the lost ones or injured ones but instead point fingers at the people who are responsible. Such as fire arms, and ethnicity and religion. But really... can't we just relax for once and not harm anyone for a very long time?

Warren Castille · **06-14-2016, 09:44 AM**

I'm not a bleeding heart by any means, but there's a world of difference between the nonsensical shootings that happen inside the borders of our country, one with a stabilized government and functional infrastructure, compared to some of the far less fortunate corners of the world.

I mean, if the lesson to be learned is "You'll never truly be safe, a madman with a gun can shoot up wherever you are at any point because it's impossible to stop them otherwise" then... Well, what else is there to say?

Askier · **06-14-2016, 09:52 AM**

Warren how is it any different?

Terror is terror to those whom seek to spread it. Whether here, Ireland, or the Middle East, if their actions cause people to be afraid to live their life and submit to crazy ideas, whatever they may be, then its the same.Â

Violence is violence.

Humans are humans. And to say there is a difference between here and there is to imply its okay' for there because they are not a stabalized part of the world.

Was the Paris attack not evidence that any nation, no matter the laws, are subject to terror?

Was Ireland in the 70's not evidence that any nation can make terrorists?

We have home grown agents of terror here too. Ever hear of the Weathermen?

Laws are like clothes. They only hide the body. And sometimes the body hidden is rotten. Â

Rome was once an Empire of laws. And the Goths and the Visigoths sacked the crap outta them and their laws. Sometimes force is all you can do to keep yourself safe.

LiadansWhisper · **06-14-2016, 09:52 AM**

(06-14-2016, 09:42 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: 7 Dead, 33 Injured in Chicago Shootings

:/... Like this is getting a bit out of hand.

I honestly think tragedies like this is not making it a lot easier to sympathize for the lost ones or injured ones but instead point fingers at the people who are responsible. Such as fire arms, and ethnicity and religion. But really... can't we just relax for once and not harm anyone for a very long time?

Chicago has a rampant crime problem, and some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. Unfortunately they don't prevent violent criminals from obtaining guns.

Valence · **06-14-2016, 10:02 AM**

(06-14-2016, 08:27 AM)Askier Wrote: Gun control is simply ineffective. Look at Paris and Chicago. Two cities with some of the strictest gun laws in the world. And, ironically, some of the highest number of gun related crimes in the developed world.Â

How can that be? Gun laws protect people.Â

Actually all they do is disarm normal citizens, which makes it hard or almost impossible for them to defend themselves while nut jobs are still able to find the weapons they need. I'd rather carry a weapon and be able to defend myself and others than only be able to hide while waiting for the cops to show up.

Are guns a big responsibility? Yes? Are they dangerous? Yes, when used by a person for ill intent only though. Guns are just tools after all. They do not move or fire unless a human being picks them up and uses them. They are hunks of emotionless metal. Guns are not the problem. I learned that while living in London. A city with very strict gun laws. And you know what happened while I was there? The government had to ban knives outside the home cause too many people were getting stabbed.Â

Huh. Imagine. Nut cases simply using something else to kill someone. Humans are going to kill each other. We've been doing it for millennia. Â Taking away weapons normal people can use to keep themselves safe won't fix it. This is something bigger. Something no law will fix.

Slow down a minute please.

That is just misinformation. I live in Paris (nearby). We don't have the amount of firearms casualties every year that the US seems to get (actually, something like 10-15 times less per inhabitant). Most of those are caused by hunting weapons when they happen, mostly in the countryside. Those are the only licensed guns besides small arms used in clubs with very strict regulation around. Those are the ones that are the most easy to obtain, and yet you need to pass a certain amount of regulation as well, but hunting is still a thing and those rifles are the most easy to get for anyone. Remove them from the equation and you would probably get even less deaths by firearms around.

Will this get rid of the problem in its entirety? Certainly not. But don't start making assumptions on how it's not even better in countries where gun regulations are strong, because it does make a difference (just have to check the facts/numbers really).Â

It certainly doesn't reduce crime or violence, but it certainly reduces the stupid amount of firearm mass murders around (like, in universities and schools for one).Â

Is it the only factor that plays into this? Certainly not. The Paris attacks (two in a year), were mounted by an organized group with the baking of ISIS, which is no small fret. Dozen of people were involved in them both, and they acted in groups, not lone individuals. Half a dozen of them if not more have been arrested if not killed since then.

I didn't want to answer here before knowing a bit more about the pulse killer. Did he have backup? Any network to get his hands on black market weapons like they did in France? Was he acting alone?Â

Because you certainly can't get your hands on a AR-15 rifle (it was an AR-15 or something here right?) under strict gun regulation, just like he did, under a license. Can you by buying it from back market, or at least a more available thing like an AK? Totally. Is it easy? I don't think so, not for lone individuals.

I think there is a strong line to be drawn between 'common' mass shootings that we almost never see around there, and those specific kinds of scenarios when terrorism is involved.

LiadansWhisper · **06-14-2016, 10:05 AM**

(06-14-2016, 09:55 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I guess you can explain that to the family of the five year old girl who got shot, then. "Sorry kid, dog eat dog out there. Should have had a gun."

I would honestly be more interested in finding out *why* Chicago's crime is so out of control.

LiadansWhisper · **06-14-2016, 10:22 AM**

(06-14-2016, 10:02 AM)Valence Wrote:
(06-14-2016, 08:27 AM)Askier Wrote: Gun control is simply ineffective. Look at Paris and Chicago. Two cities with some of the strictest gun laws in the world. And, ironically, some of the highest number of gun related crimes in the developed world.Â

How can that be? Gun laws protect people.Â

Actually all they do is disarm normal citizens, which makes it hard or almost impossible for them to defend themselves while nut jobs are still able to find the weapons they need. I'd rather carry a weapon and be able to defend myself and others than only be able to hide while waiting for the cops to show up.

Are guns a big responsibility? Yes? Are they dangerous? Yes, when used by a person for ill intent only though. Guns are just tools after all. They do not move or fire unless a human being picks them up and uses them. They are hunks of emotionless metal. Guns are not the problem. I learned that while living in London. A city with very strict gun laws. And you know what happened while I was there? The government had to ban knives outside the home cause too many people were getting stabbed.Â

Huh. Imagine. Nut cases simply using something else to kill someone. Humans are going to kill each other. We've been doing it for millennia. Â Taking away weapons normal people can use to keep themselves safe won't fix it. This is something bigger. Something no law will fix.

Slow down a minute please.

That is just misinformation. I live in Paris (nearby). We don't have the amount of firearms casualties every year that the US seems to get (actually, something like 10-15 times less per inhabitant). Most of those are caused by hunting weapons when they happen, mostly in the countryside. Those are the only licensed guns besides small arms used in clubs with very strict regulation around. Those are the ones that are the most easy to obtain, and yet you need to pass a certain amount of regulation as well, but hunting is still a thing and those rifles are the most easy to get for anyone. Remove them from the equation and you would probably get even less deaths by firearms around.

Will this get rid of the problem in its entirety? Certainly not. But don't start making assumptions on how it's not even better in countries where gun regulations are strong, because it does make a difference (just have to check the facts/numbers really).Â

It certainly doesn't reduce crime or violence, but it certainly reduces the stupid amount of firearm mass murders around (like, in universities and schools for one).Â

Is it the only factor that plays into this? Certainly not. The Paris attacks (two in a year), were mounted by an organized group with the baking of ISIS, which is no small fret. Dozen of people were involved in them both, and they acted in groups, not lone individuals. Half a dozen of them if not more have been arrested if not killed since then.

I didn't want to answer here before knowing a bit more about the pulse killer. Did he have backup? Any network to get his hands on black market weapons like they did in France? Was he acting alone?Â

Because you certainly can't get your hands on a AR-15 rifle (it was an AR-15 or something here right?) under strict gun regulation, just like he did, under a license. Can you by buying it from back market, or at least a more available thing like an AK? Totally. Is it easy? I don't think so, not for lone individuals.

I think there is a strong line to be drawn between 'common' mass shootings that we almost never see around there, and those specific kinds of scenarios when terrorism is involved.

They haven't said which gun he had did the most killing. AR-15s are crap at close range, so odds are he used the handgun he had.

Virella · **06-14-2016, 10:30 AM**

Mind you, for all the EU folk going BUT THINGS ARE COOL HERE CUZ NO GUNS

Finland has guns. Just yeah. Go look at the statistics posted below. France, despite having no gun's allowed law, is still ranked more unsafely than Finland (or hell, the Netherlands even).
Â
Guns don't make a country unsafe. People do.

(and for fun some US and Finland statistics as well)

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2016Â®ion=150

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info...ates/Crime

Btw... if the rumours are true about the shooter being of the LGBT community, I'm not remotely surprised. His father was a gay hating individual, and not to talk things right, but I could imagine the guy was probably driven by guilt about his sexuality because Islam isn't accepting of it. Got recruited by radicals, and found his way to 'paradise' to 'cleanse himself' of his sin to murder other gay folk.

Ib4 people go Islam is k for gay folk. Have a look here.

It really wouldn't surprise me if this is going to be the turn out.

Caspar · **06-14-2016, 10:50 AM**

(06-14-2016, 10:30 AM)Virella Wrote: Mind you, for all the EU folk going BUT THINGS ARE COOL HERE CUZ NO GUNS

Finland has guns. Just yeah. Go look at the statistics posted below. France, despite having no gun's allowed law, is still ranked more unsafely than Finland (or hell, the Netherlands even).
Â
Guns don't make a country unsafe. People do.

(and for fun some US and Finland statistics as well)

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2016Â®ion=150

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info...ates/Crime

Btw... if the rumours are true about the shooter being of the LGBT community, I'm not remotely surprised. His father was a gay hating individual, and not to talk things right, but I could imagine the guy was probably driven by guilt about his sexuality because Islam isn't accepting of it. Got recruited by radicals, and found his way to 'paradise' to 'cleanse himself' of his sin to murder other gay folk.

Ib4 people go Islam is k for gay folk. Have a look here.

It really wouldn't surprise me if this is going to be the turn out.

I could see that being true. It would be a more extreme version of a conflict many people go through. However I suspect it will not be broached as a topic in our public consciousness, as more people seem to be interested in the how and not the why, sadly.

This incident actually reminded me of the Brevik killing spree in Sweden more than the typical gun violence we've seen in the US in recent years, or the Port Arthur killing spree in Australia.

Parvacake · **06-14-2016, 10:52 AM**

Okay, welp.

This thread was meant to be left alone when I said, more specifically on page two in my last post (note me even stating 'And to end this on a lighter note...'). I already contacted one of the mods to shut and lock this down since people are already taking this waaaaaayyyyyyy in a less then positive direction even with the best of intentions and I just woke up to a couple pages of increasing levels of vitrolic discourse.

This thread wasn't to talk about gun control or how shitty or not shit ours or other cities/places/countries are. It was to spread awareness about the shooting and pay some thoughts and respects to those who have fallen. You want to continue this conversation? Please take it else where.

Thank you.

Aldotsk · **06-14-2016, 11:01 AM**

(06-14-2016, 10:52 AM)Lililove Wrote: Okay, welp.

This thread was meant to be left alone when I said, more specifically on page two in my last post (note me even stating 'And to end this on a lighter note...'). I already contacted one of the mods to shut and lock this down since people are already taking this waaaaaayyyyyyy in a less then positive direction even with the best of intentions and I just woke up to a couple pages of increasing levels of vitrolic discourse.

This thread wasn't to talk about gun control or how shitty or not shit ours or other cities/places/countries are. It was to spread awareness about the shooting and pay some thoughts and respects to those who have fallen. You want to continue this conversation? Please take it else where.

Thank you.

While I feel like I agree with you since this is your thread that you started to show people to share their sympathies, but the thread name was quite misleading as if you wanted us to start discussion about how we feel in the shooting. You did post the rules later, but maybe you should change the thread name to more like: "Sympathizing Pulse Mass Shooting". But I shouldn't really be telling you what to do since it's your thread.

In threads like these, it's likely to happen that some people will bring up politics, religion, or something sensitive because the tragic news like this is not something that people will just let go easily. It's a very thin ice subject.

Aldotsk · **06-14-2016, 11:04 AM**

I can see this thread being gone pretty soon since it's getting close to personal insults and cursing at each other. =/

LiadansWhisper · **06-14-2016, 11:12 AM**

(06-14-2016, 11:04 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: I can see this thread being gone pretty soon since it's getting close to personal insults and cursing at each other. =/

Yeahhhh.

Honestly, we shouldn't be denigrating people here, even if we disagree with them.

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Pulse Mass Shooting (USA)

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