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***Teadrinker*** · **01-22-2017, 03:50 AM**

(01-22-2017, 03:39 AM)Marisa Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the races of men in Eorzea have largely adopted a universal language. I mean you of course have your region-specific words, like the Garlean psuedo-latin or the occasional japanese or french the Domans and Ishgardians (respectively) like to throw in, but those are likely hold-overs from their ancestral languages, or divergent dialects resulting from geographic isolation or local culture. Â

Anyway, I'm not away of any race of men that actually has a unique language at this point. Am I wrong?

Xaelans are the only ones afaik. A lot of people headcanoned Doma as well but the Lorebook took that out behind the shed.

I'm super touch and go with RPing language barriers on my Doman but I'm honestly just not a big fan of language barrier RP. I've seen it cause a lot of OOC drama so I just avoid it most of the time tbh.

Kismet · **01-22-2017, 03:58 AM**

(01-22-2017, 02:59 AM)Kurt S. Wrote: I'm wondering what they refer to as "dialect." Again my question feeds back to my earlier post, and I don't seem to find much clarification on other sources. Would the dialect be as simple as say. How New Yorkers speak English versus say the English speaking English.

Or do they mean dialect in the context of say, Mandarin to Cantonese or Fookien. Or in a more personal setting, Bisaya to Tagalog.

Because the Philippines needs so many dialects they're pretty much indistinguishable to each other. Someone from the northern islands will never understand someone from the southern islands unless they undergo at least a year of study. And yet they're still called "dialects."

The part that I put in bold is what I was going for when I said "dialect". Kind of like how American Southerners have their own slew of accents, expressions, and colloquialisms that Americans from the North may not understand. It's the exact same language, but different rhythm and sayings.

Quote:Also as another observation. I think Caveman talk is quite acceptable, BUT easily rectified. The thing is, and I'm just regaling how our English classes taught English because we didn't know how English, it all depends on how they'd pick up the common tongue.

I mean sentence structure's got Subjects and Predicates, right?

Now if you take away the concept of pronouns or haven't introduced, say the Eorzean variant, to said character yet. Which I believe may happen. You're left with no substitutes but what you can comprehend out of the structure.Â

It'd be rude to say the equivalent of "I" in your language to someone who doesn't already understand it. The idea is that you're probably going to want to be inclusive so everyone understands. Even if it's grating to ears or in this case, making the eyes bleed.

So how's that going to play out?Â

"Kurt think that good!"

Simply because you're limited in your understanding but you still want that idea to come across as complete. Being messy is just a price for that.

Err...

The most I'm able to gather from what I think you're going on about here is that, in short, you just really really want your character to talk weird. Specifically, you want language to be the catalyst for this oddity in their speech. And you think that due to the wide spread of various languages, dialects, and accents there are in real life... that it must obviously be present in the game's world, too.

On a fundamental level, I get that. I really do. But sadly, there just isn't much support for unique languages apart from the common tongue that are currently being used en masse -- with the exception of Xaelan tongue(s). Every race does have their own individual languages, that was never in question. But it's heavily implied that those are outdated and not widely used anymore, outside of a handful of terms. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the concept of a character with 'caveman-esque speech' seems kind of weird and/or unnecessary, unless your character has some really funky backstory that justifies it (like being sheltered their whole life or something)... That's justÂ me, though.

If that's truly what you want to do because it'll make you happiest, then go for it.

Kurt S. · **01-22-2017, 07:28 AM**

(01-22-2017, 03:58 AM)Kismet Wrote: The part that I put in bold is what I was going for when I said "dialect". Kind of like how American Southerners have their own slew of accents, expressions, and colloquialisms that Americans from the North may not understand. It's the exact same language, but different rhythm and sayings.

Ah well for that bit, I was wondering more on the universe's scope. Not "they" as roleplayers. But they as in all the other characters within the game and universe. Since we're pretty much variables that change with the definitions set in by the lore book or whoever's in charge of the lore.Â

Like, if there's been any in game/universe evidence to support or refute that the dialect that they refer to is just as simple as slang/accent variations say between how two Americans from two different parts of America were to speak English. Or if they mean the broader scope when it's easy enough to think they're different languages.

It's more of something that could incite further speculation. Maybe someone somewhere noticed something that might help support or further refute the lack of unique languages. Â

(01-22-2017, 03:58 AM)Kismet Wrote: The most I'm able to gather from what I think you're going on about here is that, in short, you just really really want your character to talk weird. Specifically, you want language to be the catalyst for this oddity in their speech. And you think that due to the wide spread of various languages, dialects, and accents there are in real life... that it must obviously be present in the game's world, too.

On a fundamental level, I get that. I really do. But sadly, there just isn't much support for unique languages apart from the common tongue that are currently being used en masse -- with the exception of Xaelan tongue(s). Every race does have their own individual languages, that was never in question. But it's heavily implied that those are outdated and not widely used anymore, outside of a handful of terms. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the concept of a character with 'caveman-esque speech' seems kind of weird and/or unnecessary, unless your character has some really funky backstory that justifies it (like being sheltered their whole life or something)... That's justÂ me, though.

If that's truly what you want to do because it'll make you happiest, then go for it.

Now this bit is just me showing how one could flow from not being able to speak the language to speaking like everyone else. My Xaela doesn't even understand a lick of Eorzean yet, much less speak it. So caveman speech is out of the question. Not that I'd do it for more than one session, my brain cries when I do it.

If anything I want her to be fluent in it like the rest of my roster, but I feel like hand waving it feels like cheating when I can try to suffer my way to it. That there's hooks for scholars or cunning linguists to bite into it. Of course it's pretty obvious not everyone's into it.Â

Workflow as follows:
>Not being able to understand anything. (Like eyes glazed over and general anxiety that you might be wasting someone's time.)

>Being able to understand it to some degree, that you finally put some words out. (Essentially caveman speech. At this point you'd probably know that Asshole doesn't actually mean Hello in Eorzean and that's probably why you were punched in the first place.)

>Being able to pass for a normal speaker. (That you finally end up speaking like everyone else barring certain syntax errors.)Â

I just thought maybe, in the vein that this is about language barriers, I could at least show a brief process of how I, as a non-native English speaker, got to the level of proficiency I do now.

^^^^^This bit here is the point of that section of the rant to begin with. If the conditions were as follows down here. vvvvv

Again with the header above my little rant, it is all under the assumption that the scope of "Dialect" isn't as small and convenient as differing slang and accent of the same language. Under the assumption that no it isn't just as slight as North and South US English. That it may be like say, and I feel like a broken record, Mandarin and Cantonese.

Kilieit · **01-22-2017, 11:04 AM**

(01-22-2017, 03:50 AM)Teadrinker Wrote: Xaelans are the only ones afaik. A lot of people headcanoned Doma as well but the Lorebook took that out behind the shed.

The lore book did no such thing. "Speak the common tongue of the [Eorzean] Hyur" and "have their own local ancestral language" are not mutually exclusive concepts. "Its culture developed for thousands of years with no influence from the West" and "they spoke the same language all along" are.

General plea: Please stop spreading this quote out of context. It's disingenuous.

(01-22-2017, 03:39 AM)Marisa Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the races of men in Eorzea have largely adopted a universal language. I mean you of course have your region-specific words, like the Garlean psuedo-latin or the occasional japanese or french the Domans and Ishgardians (respectively) like to throw in, but those are likely hold-overs from their ancestral languages, or divergent dialects resulting from geographic isolation or local culture. Â

Anyway, I'm not away of any race of men that actually has a unique language at this point. Am I wrong?

Yes. You're wrong on that last point. Please read my post.

It's really frustrating to read this thread and feel like everything I'm saying is being ignored, despite being based half in lore from the very book you're all citing, and half in lore you can literally read in the ubiquitous Naming Conventions thread. It alone confirms Roegadyn and Lalafell have their own language, and characterises Roegadyn as dying, but does no such thing for Lalafell. It also strongly implies that Elezen either have or had their own language (because the naming conventions only make sense if they're based in a language with deeper meaning). The rest is from the lore book.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **01-22-2017, 12:54 PM**

(01-22-2017, 11:04 AM)Kilieit Wrote: snip

I kinda disagree here. We have plenty of evidence that non-Xaela races of man have had other languages that were commonly used until the common era in Eorzea. But we're also told over and over again that these languages are no longer used commonly. Or that they've become archaic. Or that people no longer speak them. The Roegadyn language is cited in the Warrior information as having been difficult for scholars to translate. Yes, it's largely cultural and they have a collection of words that are generally used in their names, but I don't think it has native speakers anymore. It'd be a dead language. For Elezen, Lalafells and Miqo'te, we again, have evidence that they may have once had their own languages, but the ones living in Eorzea at the very least don't appear to know or speak those languages any longer. The common tongue is the language that people are likely being born and raised with.

But it's also important to note that Hydaelyn (the planet) has no obligation to require that languages diversify over time or distance (or both). For all we know, the common language has been common for more than one Astral/Umbral Era cycle. (We have nothing saying the people of Nym/Ampdapor/Mhach/Allag spoke differently than modern Eorzeans. Although we have nothing confirming it either. ...although given that we do have NPCs people without the Echo can communicate with, I lean more towards the common language being pretty old.)

Kilieit · **01-22-2017, 01:07 PM**

I don't think absence of evidence is evidence of absence, ESPECIALLY when our viewpoint character for whom all quests in the game are written has a special talent that allows them to speak and understand any language in the multiverse, including Dragonspeak and Ascian.

I agree that "Eorzean" (Hyuran Common) seems to be very widely spoken, but I strongly disagree that means that all the other languages in the world are dead or dying and that nobody's player-character would speak them. English becoming ubiquitous in the real world hasn't killed off Spanish or Mandarin or German. I admit I'm no linguist, but as far as I'm aware, the introduction of English overseas has created MORE languages, in the form of pidgin dialects. Not less.

People are treating it like "Eorzean is the only spoken language anywhere" is the only logical conclusion from the lore we're given, and that's just not true. It's one possibility, but it's not canon, and it's not a foregone conclusion from the evidence we have.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **01-22-2017, 01:25 PM**

We've got a variety of NPCs without the Echo. The Echo's "ability to understand spoken language" is even just that. It's entirely useless for written texts. Or speaking in another language. I know people like to liken it to like a built-in google translate, but lore panels have vetoed that. It's literally a "I know this is what ____ is trying to communicate without actually knowing the words" mechanism.

Cid, Alphinaud, any number of Garleans, the sky pirates in the current 24-person raids, and the list could go on. Our characters may have a blessed understanding of languages, but the people around them do not. And can still understand plenty of things with the common language. The game even specifically gives us special text boxes when it's to be implied we're understanding something through the Echo instead of through natural language processing.

I agree that an absence of evidence does not correlate to evidence of absence, but there's is a strong lack of evidence to show that these languages are used in daily life, or they would be alluded to more often. From a linguistics standpoint, dialects are not considered different languages. when I took a minor in the subject just a couple years ago, the instructors generally broke things down like this.

Accent: Differences in pronunciation. Slight spelling changes. Syntax and grammar are the same. Mutually intelligible.

Dialect: May involve an accent. Includes slang and diction changes. Minor changes in syntax and grammar. Mostly intelligible.

Language: Clear distinctions in mean from pronunciation. Large changes in diction. Syntax and grammar are distinctly different. They can be extremely similar, like Hindi and Urdu (it's one of the more common pairings brought up).

Kilieit · **01-22-2017, 02:12 PM**

For the mechanism of the Echo, I refer to two things: firstly, Minfilia's phrasing on the matter. ("knowing a man's mind without knowing his words" or somesuch). Secondly, based on that, is actually the instances where a Great Wyrm imposes his thoughts onto some echo-less NPCs. Although the latter isn't an example of the actual Echo at work, it strikes me as probably being similar in sensation - the way one of them describes his ears as being incomprehending of the Great Wyrm's words while his mind was still fully comprehending of his intent makes me think that's similar to how comprehending languages through the Echo would feel.

But... it still stands that it means all quest texts are in plain English with the occasional transcribed accent, even those confirmed by other NPCs to be in other languages. We don't get given stuff to read - it's always an NPC saying "I was reading this ancient tablet and..." or words in that general area. Cid, Alphinaud, Aymeric, Gaius, and so forth are all one or more of the following: highly educated, well-travelled, and/or diplomats (broadly speaking). We don't have an "everyman" point of view to go off. Everyone in the MSQ (and MSQ-close chains) is remarkable, and NPCs in minor quests generally don't come into contact with people from a starkly different background than them... except via the player-character.

Like Kurt says further upthread, there are things in the real world termed as "dialects" which a non-scholar would easily see as a separate language: the speakers are unable to communicate with one another unless a third, common language is used. It's obvious the Doman nation's use of "Eorzean" (Eorzean-Hyuran Common, henceforth referred to as Eorzean for simplicity) doesn't meet this criteria, but there are so many places in the world that we have not seen, have not met NPCs from, and have little official lore about that people's player-characters could come from. Even if they had been exposed to Eorzean, it's not confirmed that they'd be fluent in it (especially not as fluent as the... again, generally highly educated... Othardian NPCs we meet in MSQ and NIN quests) or even that their use of Eorzean would be recognisable to someone from Eorzea itself at all. Dialect or not.

Honestly, for me, it comes down to this: there's no evidence to suggest there's a mechanism for one language to be universally adopted and fluently spoken. Languages IRL diversify for a set of reasons, and there is nothing so starkly different about societies in the XIV universe as to suggest that none of these reasons exist in it. There is evidence to suggest that the Echo's language comprehension component is an important and rare talent. Why would it be so important if most people spoke Eorzean anyway, or if there was a "universal constant" for language?

Lastly... can you really, seriously imagine a Garlean emperor willingly addressing his subjects in a tongue originated from "Eorzean savages"? I can't.

It just comes down to Occam's Razor to me that the simplest, most logical, least presumptuous explanation is that things are generally as they are IRL, but the presence of plot devices prevents the flow of quests from being broken up by the need for interpretation. I think it's weird to dismiss people who want to explore this in their RP over half-quoted, inconclusive lore.

Kismet · **01-22-2017, 02:56 PM**

The idea of "what makes sense in real life must obviously also be true in the game in some form, even if we don't receive official confirmation of it from the lore team" is often debated in various RP communities, this one included. What's going on in this thread is no different.

The logical part of my brain certainly leaves room for multiple languages being spoken in present-day Hydaelyn. Because that's what simply makes sense. Especially when we don't know how present-day Thavnairians (or Meracydians, provided there's any left) speak, and we won't know until they either send us an NPC delivering such information or allow our characters to go there. But the part of me that is very conservative about jumping the gun doesn't want to get too presumptuous until I see better, distinct examples.

In conclusion... Everyone will respectfully have to agree to disagree at this point. Some people want to follow IRL logic, some want to wait and see what lore reveals. As I've said in my last two posts, ultimately, you adhere to whatever best suits your tastes. I think as long as you aren't pushy and (no pun intended) communicate your intent well enough, you'll be fine either way.

Marisa · **01-22-2017, 03:03 PM**

(01-22-2017, 11:04 AM)undefined Wrote:
(01-22-2017, 03:39 AM)Marisa Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the races of men in Eorzea have largely adopted a universal language. I mean you of course have your region-specific words, like the Garlean psuedo-latin or the occasional japanese or french the Domans and Ishgardians (respectively) like to throw in, but those are likely hold-overs from their ancestral languages, or divergent dialects resulting from geographic isolation or local culture. Â

Anyway, I'm not away of any race of men that actually has a unique language at this point. Am I wrong?

Yes. You're wrong on that last point. Please read my post.

It's really frustrating to read this thread and feel like everything I'm saying is being ignored, despite being based half in lore from the very book you're all citing, and half in lore you can literally read in the ubiquitous Naming Conventions thread. It alone confirms Roegadyn and Lalafell have their own language, and characterises Roegadyn as dying, but does no such thing for Lalafell. It also strongly implies that Elezen Â either have or had their own language (because the naming conventions only make sense if they're based in a language with deeper meaning). The rest is from the lore book.

Okay my wording was off (like how I referred to Hyedalyn as Eorzea) but ultimately my point is that this common, Hyuran language is even more universal than English in the real world. Yeah you've got regional native languages here and there, but the primary language is one so universal, so unopposed, that there's not even a name for it. It's literally just "the common tongue," as you said.

Kilieit · **01-22-2017, 03:05 PM**

"The common tongue of the Hyur", as described by an Eorzean scholar writing an encyclopaedia about Eorzea.

***Teadrinker*** · **01-22-2017, 05:54 PM**

(01-22-2017, 11:04 AM)Kilieit Wrote:
(01-22-2017, 03:50 AM)Teadrinker Wrote: Xaelans are the only ones afaik. A lot of people headcanoned Doma as well but the Lorebook took that out behind the shed.

The lore book did no such thing. "Speak the common tongue of the [Eorzean] Hyur" and "have their own local ancestral language" are not mutually exclusive concepts. "Its culture developed for thousands of years with no influence from the West" and "they spoke the same language all along" are.

General plea: Please stop spreading this quote out of context. It's disingenuous.

This is pretty rude. It's pretty hard to spread the quote out of context when...that IS the context.

I think you're arguing semantics. I think you're splitting hairs. I think the Domans quite certainly have their own unique dialect and at one point in the distant past perhaps a language but it's not anything in use today as per the book.

That sentence quite literally means "The Eorzeans and the Domans speak the same language." Additionally, just about everyone I've met that has read that passage took it to mean this.

That being said, please feel free to RP what you wish as per your enjoyment and your discretion.

Kilieit · **01-22-2017, 06:07 PM**

20 years ago, which is when Doma made contact with the West for the first time in 2000+ years (due to the recent invention of airships), is not the "distant past".

The lore book is a complete document. Information about each part of the world this game takes place in is spread out across its pages. You cannot take one quote from one page and assume that is the end of matters - you must take into account other passages from other pages in the book, as well as other parts of the setting as portrayed in the game and in interview.

People read it that way because they aren't aware of the additional information which sheds another light on the situation, and it's frustrating to hear that perception repeatedly touted as fact when it's an interpretation. One of many, and one based on incomplete information.

ExAtomos · **01-23-2017, 10:22 AM**

Has anyone posted to the OF asking the Lore team to clarify?

On topic, I have a Xaela who does not really speak Eorzean. I think about any possible weirdnesses in English, grammar and vocab wise (and damn we have a lot) that could potentially trip up someone who is just learning the language. I've used the heck outta "<How do you say...>" also. I /try/ to keep it simple, but I'm sure it annoys some folks. It actually led to a bit of character development for me when it occurred to me that Chanar probably was resistant to learning the local language since he didn't want to be there.

Jana · **01-23-2017, 11:53 AM**

NPCs without the Echo can communicate with even Allagans just fine in the CT storyline and no one's ever had trouble understanding ancient voidsent in both that story and the current Mhach (a Lalafell civ) one. Eorzean Common seems to be much older and not limited to Hyur by what we see in-game.

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[Discussion] Language barriers and rp

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes