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Rhan'ir Azal · **08-07-2013, 01:03 PM**

It came up in another thread that some jobs were exceedingly rare, such as White Mages and Dragoons. Dragoons weren't supposed to exist more than one at a time. I am guessing this information was garnered from the original 1.0 job quest lines? The main site states the art of the White Mage is now in revival and states nothing of the rarity of Dragoons. Any insight you have would be appreciated.

Merri · **08-07-2013, 01:08 PM**

I actually don't really recall either statements being true in 1.0. Dragoons might not be common-place, and it surely isn't easy to become a Dragoon the original way, but they're not so rare as to be this completely foreign sight. Same with White Mages, or any job for that matter.

Square Enix goes to great lengths to make sure everything fits canonically. it is the age of adventurers, and knowledge of these "long lost" trades have once again emerged into the world. They're not uncommon by any means now, as the word is out and people are training in these skills by various means.

Not to mention a good portion of them have been around quite recently and aren't arts that have been lost to the ages, such as the Fists of Rhalgr. Monks were and are still alive in this day and age, just not with the numbers they once had.

Bottom line, play what you want. None of the jobs are "rare" anymore. Even relic weapons are supposed to be common place. At least, most of them. The Paladin and Bard relics are a bit meta-gamey since IC there is only one, but there are ways around it.

But weapons like the Bravura, Sphairai, Gae Bolg, and the Stardust Rod are all "craftable" in the sense that there isn't just one. It's just a type of weapon. In fact, in regards to Dragoons, one isn't considered a true Dragoon in Ishgard until they are gifted a Gae Bolg by the Holy See, as the Gae Bolg is only gifted to those that rise to the position of Dragoon.

shotgunbadger · **08-07-2013, 01:15 PM**

Agreeing with Merri here, there are jobs that are resurfacing from previously being rare, but as of 'now' in game there's no ultra rare job or anything.

The age of adventure means that ONCE rare people like White Mages and Dragoons and Summoners and such are now resurfacing, that's the point of these legendary powers starting at level one and such. Absolutely nothing wrong with playing a White Mage if you dig the class, if you want to play to its once rare nature just RP things like having to explore some old ruin for a once lost tome of power or the trepidation of wielding power you once thought was just a legend.

Vlll · **08-07-2013, 01:15 PM**

EDIT: I derped so hard, I thought we were talking about job dispersion in players, not in lore. My bad.

FreelanceWizard · **08-07-2013, 01:34 PM**

Yes, the 1.x "you are the chosen one" angle is from those job quests.

So, as I mentioned in the other thread, I have every expectation (much like others on this thread) that SE will run with the "new" theme of ARR's main scenario quest, which is that any given PC is but one of many heroes of Hydaelyn. From that, I expect we'll see job quest lines in 2.x that emphasize the history of the Jobs and their revival, and how you're being personally tested to prove your worth to learn those secrets -- not that you're the only person who can, but that you must prove yourself worthy of it. In that case, you're again but one of many heroes with the strength and conviction to wield such powers.

So, in terms of rarity, adventurers are a subset of all Eorzeans. Those with the Echo are subset of adventurers. PCs are a subset of those with the Echo. PCs with access to Jobs are a subset of all PCs. They're rare, yes, but only in the context of Eorzea as a whole. Since we can't see all of Eorzea due to limitations of the game, it's safe to assume that even if every PC fell into the subset of Job users, they'd still be a small percentage of the Eorzean population, which fits with lore.

In short, I expect that in 2.x, you can RP that you have a Job and got it through the Job quest line and not be stomping all over the rarity of Jobs or other people's stories.

Rhan'ir Azal · **08-07-2013, 01:36 PM**

Awesome. Thanks for the reply and clearing that up!
I didn't want to derail the other person's topic for my silly question.

Adelpha · **08-07-2013, 01:50 PM**

(08-07-2013, 01:08 PM)Merri Wrote: I actually don't really recall either statements being true in 1.0. Dragoons might not be common-place, and it surely isn't easy to become a Dragoon the original way, but they're not so rare as to be this completely foreign sight. Same with White Mages, or any job for that matter.

At the very least:

Show Content

Eva · **08-07-2013, 02:04 PM**

One other thing to keep in mind is that one needn't always follow the letter of the lore strictly with relation to quest storylines.

This is akin to how in FFXI a group might say "We beat the Shadowlord and saved the realm! Huzzah!" ...and then everyone who hasn't finished that particular arc is left somewhat disenchanted or otherwise says, "No you didn't, I just saw a cutscene saying the Shadowlord is still ravaging the realm!" or what-have-you.

For Eva's part, I've come up with alternate explanations for attire that she's received separate from what the job quests tell us. By comparison it's much more ordinary to say that a suit of dragoon armor came from an old acquaintance who once served with her father rather than what the questline would have me believe, but I think it works better for my own approach.

Good discussion so far though, and lots of great points brought up~ Thumbsup

Mtoto Wamoto · **08-07-2013, 03:15 PM**

(08-07-2013, 01:08 PM)Merri Wrote: I actually don't really recall either statements being true in 1.0. Dragoons might not be common-place, and it surely isn't easy to become a Dragoon the original way, but they're not so rare as to be this completely foreign sight. Same with White Mages, or any job for that matter.

Actually, I can provide sources that say otherwise.

Quote:Alberic: A dragoon clad in black, you say!? Tell me all that transpired!

Alberic: By the Fury... That the Eye would choose another...

Alberic: I had not thought it possible. In light of recent events, it wouldÂ seem an explanation is in order.

Alberic: The Eye is no ordinary relic. It harbors the power of the dragon, which it bestows upon a single chosen soulâ”€the strongest and wisest dragoon.

Alberic: He who is chosen is possessed of the power to fight our mortal foes, the dragons of Dravania, on equal footing, soaring the firmament as if it were an extension of the land. That man is known as the Azure Dragoon.

Alberic: The Azure Dragoon is the light of hope for all Ishgardians, and the paragon of all dragoons.

Alberic: ...For this reason, you may imagine how it pains me to have to confess that the man you encountered, theÂ thief, is none other than the Azure Dragoon...and thatÂ IÂ was once his teacher.

---

Alberic: Never before in Ishgard's long history has the Eye roused to more than one individual in a single generation. But it avails us naught to cudgel our brains about it.

Alberic: The fact of the matter is that you are now a vessel for the power of the dragon. That dragon lies yet in slumber, however, and you must needs possess the means to wake it: the Soul of the Dragoon. I would entrust you with mine, <Name>.

Alberic: Like Estinien, I once ruled the skies as the Azure Dragoon, although that power has since become lost to me. It was simply by force of habit that I have hitherto kept the soul upon my person.
Alberic: I have no inkling as to why the Eye has seen fit to choose a second, and an outsider at that.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Eye_of...ot_Details

On the matter of "normal" dragoons, well, you need look no further than Owl's Nest to find them. The knights stationed there are the dragoons of House Fortemps. In a real world application, dragoons were simply members of a military unit armed and trained to fight in mounted or infantry settings. In fact, dragoon is more or less an old english word meaning mounted infantry. In the context of Final Fantasy XIV, dragoons are simply dragons slayers - knights who fight against the dragons of Dravania. Becoming a dragoon of Ishgard wouldn't be hard, I'd imagine. It's likely a simple matter of pledging your sword or lance to a one of the High Houses and having them declare you a knight of Ishgard. Who knows. The fact of the matter remains: there are dragoons, and then there is the Azure Dragoon who stands in his own league above all others who would face the dragons because he possesses the power of the dragons himself. When you think about it, the Azure Dragoon is more or less XIV's version of Skyrim's Dovahkin...just with less Fus Ro Dah.Â

As we don't know the lore surrounding any of the jobs in ARR (aside from a vague paragraph that gives the general tidbits of the job) and how much of the lore in 1.0 will be retconned, we can only formulate what's actual lore based on what has been provided.Â

On the matter of RPers being dragoons - that boils back down to the RP community giving the contradiction between lore and mechanics a pass, favoring mechanics over lore in this case.

Edit: Just to quickly add on a few more details surrounding the Azure Dragoon...the armor they wear is exclusive to the Azure Dragoon - meaning that the Dragoon AF is in fact the Azure Dragoon set -the drachen mail.Â

Quote:Estinien: Behold the drachen mail, forged in the lifeblood of dragons. As blood calls to blood, so too does the armor call to the dragon within, redoubling the Azure Dragoon's strength thereby. If you would save the people of Ishgard from the great wyrm Nidhogg, you must needs clad yourself in the same.

Estinien: When an Azure Dragoon hangs up his lance, ancient custom decrees that he seal away his drachen mail at the fields of his valor. You must journey to such places and claim the armor for yourself.
Â
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Double...ot_Details

However in the case of Gae Bolg, we get the first hint that SE may be tripping over their own lore.Â

Quote:There is a custom still observed in Ishgard today which ordains that the Holy See bestow a polearm dubbed Gae Bolg upon any lancer who ascends to the station of dragoon. Exactly how his weapon is forged remains a mystery, as the very few highland smiths who create them are sworn to keep their methods secret. All that is known is that the bones of dragons slain in the name of Halone are worked into both haft and head, achieving an unmatched balance between lightness and strength.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=9632f9688209a7d990e7a370bccdd1f0ca80484c

The confusion between the distinction between a dragoon and being theÂ dragoon likely stems from them not making their lore come full circle because there is the whole issue of lore vs mechanics in place. They have to sacrifice one or the other in the case of an MMO because it isn't a single player experience at the end of the day, even if the story quests are.

Mtoto Wamoto · **08-07-2013, 03:39 PM**

As for white mages, that's a different case altogether. There isn't just one white mage, and in fact, it is possible to learn the art if someone knows it. However, in the case of 1.0 setting, the only keepers of knowledge surrounding the art of succor are the Padjal.

The reason to this is due to history and the fear of the realm repeating it.

In the fifth umbral era, it's said that man discovered how to use the arcane arts. This is what led us out of the umbral era and into the fifth astral era.Â

It wasn't until the fifth astral era that man sought greater magicks. To this end, the art of destruction - black magic, was created. In order to keep the destructive force of black magic in check and maintain balance, white magic was invented.

We're told by several sources that the fifth astral era saw a darkness descend from the skies and spill across the land, filling the hearts of men and corrupting them. They began to seek greater power, fueled by avarice, and began perverting their magics for personal gain.Â

It was because of this that we entered the sixth umbral era and the reason why both arts were soon abolished.Â

While it isn't as case specific as dragoon, white and black magic would be still be rare forms of magic, even if it isn't exclusive to one person. Again, we don't know the lore surrounding them in ARR and how much of it will be changed, but given what we know, we can only go off of that and not speculation.Â

Quote:Raya-O-Senna: White magic and conjury are close relations, the two governed by the same laws. The former, however, places the utmost importance upon healing and protection, and demands of practitioners the greatest intimacy with the elementals.

Raya-O-Senna: On account of this, its use is forbidden to all but those few who are deemed worthy. It is the sacred charge of we Padjal to ensure that the art survives, and in righteous hands.

Quote:Raya-O-Senna: I take from your silence that you are not. No matter, it shall be my pleasure to educate you. The Fifth Astral Era is said to have begun approximately three millennia ago.

Raya-O-Senna: The ice age that ushered in the Fifth Umbral Era made the land a barren and merciless place, and man was pushed to the limits of his resourcefulness in the struggle to survive. Yet survive he did, through the discovery of magic as we know itâ”€an event which marked the dawning of the Fifth Astral Era.

Raya-O-Senna: At first, man was well pleased just to have the means to keep the cold at bay and compete with the other races. But man is nothing if not an ambitious beast. It was not long before he began to seek mightier magicks, hoping to win greater glory.

Raya-O-Senna: It was this desire that brought forth black magic, the arcane art of destruction, into the world. In order that this force of chaos be kept in check and balance preserved, at roughly the same point in history, white magic, the arcane art of succor, came into existence.

Raya-O-Senna: Emboldened by magic, man went on to reach the zenith of glory. But his hunger knew no bounds. Over time, even they who donned the white began perverting their powers for the sake of self-gain, and in this single-minded pursuit scrupled not to sully the sanctity of the Twelveswood.

Raya-O-Senna: In his pride and avarice, man brought down the wrath of the elementals upon himself.

Raya-O-Senna: A great deluge was sent to cleanse the land of his wicked presence, in the wake of which the forest rose to swallow up all that was not washed away. Thus did the Six Umbral Era begin...or so it is told.

Quote:Thancred: Ne'er till land consumes sun can sea bear moons,Heavens spew crimson flame, hells seep black dooms.
Thancred: You seem shocked. I am a bard, I'll have you know, and not utterly devoid of talent. The verses of Mezaya should pose no significant problem.

Thancred: I confess, I am glad to have journeyed so far in search of my inspiration and muse. For the noble display you have shown me this day, I shall repay you with a kindness. I shall tell you of the prophet.

Thancred: More than a thousand years past, a great calamity was visited upon this world. Across the sky, a terrible blackness spread till no light could be seen, and then descended, seeping into the very hearts of men. Thus was he sorely afflicted, and his ways perverted. Chaos was in all places all at once, and myriad creation was destroyed.

Thancred: Avarice reigned supreme, and civilization was thrown into a lawless struggle for wealth and powerâ”€the mighty taking as they saw fit with complete disregard for nature and fellow man alike. Evil begat evil and ripened unchecked, taking on the sickly sweetness of rot, near to bursting and rank with the promise of decay.

Thancred: It was then that the Twelve, grieved by the corruption and sin that had gripped their creation, decided to purge the world of its evils with a cleansing deluge, proclaiming: â€œBehold the power of pure water!â€ And thus began the sixth of the Umbral Eras.

Thancred: There is a moral in this story for those wise enough to find it. You see, it was we mortals who brought the great flood upon ourselves and our world, having left the gods no recourse. And so if our faults ushered in an Umbral Era in the past, then our strengths can prevent the coming of another in the future.

Thancred: So what say you, <Name>? Will you pledge yourself to the side of good and fight to save the world? Know that you cannot rely blindly on others in things such as this. The road to victory must be found within yourselfâ”€as it must in all of us.

Thancred: Gods, speaking to you has given me the most sublime idea for a poem! You are my muse, <Name>! Truly, you are!

Thancred: But I shall take up no more of your timeâ”€nor you of mine. Until our paths cross again, be good and be well.

Sounsyy · **08-07-2013, 04:50 PM**

Have to agree with Mtoto. All jobs are extremely rare in comparison to the classes and the ways to become one are not open to everyone. That is unless you bend lore. This is why my IC is a gladiator, not a Paladin, despite being known OOC as a Paladin in game.

Dragoon - Like Mtoto said there is only ONE Azure Dragoon and this is the only Dragoon gifted with the Drachen Mail. However, anyone can be a dragoon, as a dragoon is just a dragon slayer. There are many dragon slayers in Ishguard. The Gae Bolg is only given to the chosen one who becomes a Dragoon. (Thats how I understand the quest text at least. There have been multiple Azure Dragoons over the course of history and each one is given a Gae Bolg.)

White Mage - Very limited number. Only Padjal were entrusted with the secrets of White Magic by the Elementals. And these White Mages must abide by the conditions of the Pact of Gelmorra or their power will be stripped from them and their place in the Twelveswood will be forfeit. So again, very few White Mages. But there are more than one.

Black Mage - Black Magic was forbidden after the Sixth Umbral Era. For good reason. Shatotto brought down a fricken star by herself for crying out loud. (This is actually where the Stardust Rod comes from. Shatotto is said to have made several of these.) But in ARR, Thaumaturgy seems to have loosened their restrictions of Black Magic based on the whole questline with the 6 Black Mage brothers.

Bard - Someone will have to help me out on this one as I'm not really sure about the lore for Bard. I know the AF belonged to Jehantel the Godsbow and he gives it to you as a gift. I don't think bards are actually that rare though. Jehantel teaches poetry and song freely to all and there are a couple other bards mentioned in game. Thancred being one. So another good canon job to be.

Monk - Monks were all but wiped out during the King of Ruin's attack on the Fists of Rhalgr in 1552. However, it is said that a few escaped. Not entirely difficult to make being a Monk fit.

WarriorÂ - The berserker fighting style of the Warriors traces its origins back to the Hellsguard Roegadyn living in Abalathia's Spine in the Farreach. There were many of them during the times of war but since relative peace has come to Eorzea, their art has fallen into legend. We know from the original Warrior Quests that there are at least two, plus several still living in the Abalathia Tribe. Just because it's nearly forgotten doesn't mean its lost. So still very possible to be trained in the ways of the Warrior.

Paladin - Paladin is the name of those sworn under oath to protect the royal family of Ul'dah. Sultansworn usually choose their own, but the Sultana and the royal family can also dub someone a Paladin. However, this means you have sworn on oath to protect the royal family until your death. If you go missing you're considered a traitor and you lose the title of Paladin. So you might have to get a little creative to RP as a Paladin. Also the Curtana is one of a kind. Curtana is one of the three swords forged for the three founding Sultansworn Paladins.

So overall, not too bad. Paladins, Dragoons, and White Mages seem to be the trickiest to RP without bending the rules just a little.

Gospel Gestalt · **08-07-2013, 05:36 PM**

(08-07-2013, 04:50 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Black Mage - Black Magic was forbidden after the Sixth Umbral Era. For good reason. Shatotto brought down a fricken star by herself for crying out loud. (This is actually where the Stardust Rod comes from. It is not craftable actually. It is THE staff of Shatotto. So only one.) But in ARR, Thaumaturgy seems to have loosened their restrictions of Black Magic based on the whole questline with the 6 Black Mage brothers.

I'm actually going to chime in and have to correct this. The Stardust Rod actually has multiple copies. In the Sixth Umbral Era, After Shatotto brought down the star, she actually made multiple Stardust Rods using the remnants of that very star. During the Relic Reborn quest, Gerolt goes on to say that she was prone to huge fits of boredom and making staves was one of her favorite hobbies. The Stardust Rods were her most finest pieces of work and were given only to her most loyal of followers. It's just over the years, many were lost to the ages for various reasons and in the Relic Reborn quest, you learn that one had been discovered and was being sold in an auction in Limsa Lominsa. The weapon was in very bad condition but it was a Stardust Rod none the less. However, the night that said rod was going to go up for auction, a band of Kobold under the command of Third Order Patriarch Zu Ga had raided the mans house, killed him and taken the rod back to U'Ghamaro mines for some unknown reason. This is the part in the quest where the player character must confront the Patriarch and recover the timeworn Stardust Rod for Gerolt.

Now the one the player has may be one of a kind but it's still implied that there are multiple Stardust Rods scattered about Eorzea. They also never really explain if Third Order Patriarch Zu Ga had one or more Stadust Rods either. He was also in possession of the Timeworn Thyrus and Bravura as well. So it could also be implied that this Kobold was a collector of antiques.

EDIT: to quote for reference, this is also taken from the lodestone description of the Stardust Rod.

"All in the Order of Naldâ€™thal know well the legend of Shatotto, a mighty thaumaturge from the fifth of Astral Eras. Her creation of destructive and catastrophic spells evoked as much fear as it did respect, prompting ignorant souls to call her unsavory namesâ€”Deathâ€™s Handmaiden, the Black Witch, and the She-Devil among them. She was also possessed of an otherworldly talent for crafting thaumaturgical staves. Among her creations, the Stardust Rods are by far the most powerful and coveted, believed as they are to be fashioned from the celestial remnants of a star Shatotto herself brought down to Hydaelyn and clove asunder."

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/...f0ca80484c

Fiona Swift · **08-07-2013, 06:00 PM**

(08-07-2013, 02:04 PM)Eva Wrote: One other thing to keep in mind is that one needn't always follow the letter of the lore strictly with relation to quest storylines.

This is akin to how in FFXI a group might say "We beat the Shadowlord and saved the realm! Huzzah!" ...and then everyone who hasn't finished that particular arc is left somewhat disenchanted or otherwise says, "No you didn't, I just saw a cutscene saying the Shadowlord is still ravaging the realm!" or what-have-you.

I used to do this all the time in WoW and LoTRO. I'd take down the Lich King and go HAHHA WE DEFEATED THE LICH KING ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!.... until 7 days from now when our dungeon timer resets and he magically is alive again!!

Friend responds: We must of triggered a time warp!!! NOoooO

Anyhow I see it as the classes we get ad adventurers are just that.. classes. We are always going to be our class (the main class levels with our job). While we are given the gift to become something like a Dragoon or Paladin we are never a "true" version of that. We simply embody the spirit of which makes up said job.

Why I can be a bard, then swap to a polearm and dragoon gem and suddenly I am a dragon. I've basically embodied the spirit of a dragoon. Will one day a "true" job holder come along, surely! But until that time we are merely channeling the spirit of adventures of old.

Then again I could have this all wrong...

Ildur · **08-07-2013, 06:05 PM**

I still think gameplay tramples all over story in the case of jobs. If the jobs weren't supposed to be commonplace, they wouldn't be available. We can't make Padjal characters, for instance, and that's how the game universe shows that they are rare.
However, it could be that Squeenix' lore making is centered on that there's really only one Player Character. In that case, they don't have to justify scarcity for anything the PC does. It's still doesn't mean we roleplayers don't have to handwave the implications of having many 'protagonists' running around.

Ultimately, we'll have to wait until we can play through the Jobs quests to know how rare they really are in current times.

Sounsyy · **08-07-2013, 06:08 PM**

(08-07-2013, 05:36 PM)Gospel Gestalt Wrote: I'm actually going to chime in and have to correct this. The Stardust Rod actually has multiple copies. In the Sixth Umbral Era, After Shatotto brought down the star, she actually made multiple Stardust Rods using the remnants of that very star. During the Relic Reborn quest, Gerolt goes on to say that she was prone to huge fits of boredom and making staves was one of her favorite hobbies. The Stardust Rods were her most finest pieces of work and were given only to her most loyal of followers.

Ooh fancy! Corrected my post! ^^

(08-07-2013, 06:05 PM)Ildur Wrote: However, it could be that Squeenix' lore making is centered on that there's really only one Player Character. In that case, they don't have to justify scarcity for anything the PC does. It's still doesn't mean we roleplayers don't have to handwave the implications of having many 'protagonists' running around.

This is the way I've always looked at it: In the game there are many adventurers (notable or not) but only one PC. As far as RPing goes, I take it a step farther and say that there is only one PC and it is not us.Â

We are the anonymous extra adventurers in the background of the story. We do leves, we help people, we join grand companies, we were there on Cartaneau, but we aren't necessarily involved in the game's main storyline.

That's just the way I look at it. If that makes any sense. I'm sure others have very different takes on our role in the game, but that's just the way I look at it.

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