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Azelle · **08-14-2013, 11:40 PM**

The other day I fell on that little gem of a documentary on YouTube. It gives an overlook on the last matriarchal people of China. Since we don't have any canon lore about how Keepers of the Moon see relationship/breeding/raising kids (besides them grouping a couple families together), I though this documentary could make a nice example of real life matriarchy.

For me, the Miqo'te are more human than cats. Besides a few emotes (like crouching for sitting for male), everything else points to non-bestial behavior. Hence, why I readily compare them to real life cultures.

Even more interesting, in the video love is something that is recurrent in their explanation, since Keepers pray to Menphina the Lover... yes 1+1=2 hehee.

So, just another idea to RP Keepers.

[youtube]bbzG0n3shTM[/youtube]

Sarantali · **08-14-2013, 11:51 PM**

Outside from the fact I think that Keepers are a bit more monogamous than this culture seems to be in contrast to the Seekers who seem to be more polyamorous... so I don't know how well that would work ^_^; Also they seem to have big families which take care of their own averse to the Keeper's more isolationist feel... I get the sense from how they're written they wouldn't necessarily take in family from another tribe so tending to the elderly or left children would actually be more of a thing.

That said there's a lot of interesting ideas here.

Aysun · **08-14-2013, 11:52 PM**

(08-14-2013, 11:51 PM)Koren Wrote: Outside from the fact I think that Keepers are a bit more monogamous than this culture seems to be in contrast to the Seekers who seem to be more polyamorous... Â so I don't know how well that would work ^_^; Also they seem to have big families which take care of their own averse to the Keeper's more isolationist feel... I get the sense from how they're written they wouldn't necessarily take in family from another tribe so tending to the elderly or left children would actually be more of a thing.

That said there's a lot of interesting ideas here.

Duno. They like they'd need to be polyamorous too still with the few males they have. Tongue

Who knows~

Sarantali · **08-15-2013, 12:02 AM**

(08-14-2013, 11:52 PM)Aysun Wrote:
(08-14-2013, 11:51 PM)Koren Wrote: Outside from the fact I think that Keepers are a bit more monogamous than this culture seems to be in contrast to the Seekers who seem to be more polyamorous... Â so I don't know how well that would work ^_^; Also they seem to have big families which take care of their own averse to the Keeper's more isolationist feel... I get the sense from how they're written they wouldn't necessarily take in family from another tribe so tending to the elderly or left children would actually be more of a thing.

That said there's a lot of interesting ideas here.

Duno. They like they'd need to be polyamorous too still with the few males they have. Who knows~

It seems like a big cultural thing to happen to not mention... especially when they go through great lengths to describe the breeding culture for the Sun Seekers.

The options are either:

1. They happened to forget to describe the Moon Keepers are polyamorous even after going through describing the breeding rights of the Sun Seekers in full detail along with names for their breeding specifications, situations, and cultural norms... they just forgot...

2. The Keepers aren't polyamorous.

It could be the case but it doesn't seem to make logical sense that they just "forgot" to mention a key bit of lore for one group after going over it in detail for another. Given the matriarchal ideal and the fact that female Miqo'te were known for going off into the world at much higher rates it seems much more likely that, rather than forgetting to write lore, less female Miqo'te of the Moon Keepers settle down to form families. After all, they aren't necessarily needed for breeding stock and families are small anyhow. Further a little under half of the NPCs from 1.0 appeared to be Sun Seekers (the ones with names. Since some of the Moon Keepers had Sun Seekers names I might have miscounted mobs). Given traditions and who-leaves-where it seems to work itself out there.

Aysun · **08-15-2013, 12:24 AM**

(08-15-2013, 12:02 AM)Koren Wrote:
(08-14-2013, 11:52 PM)Aysun Wrote:
(08-14-2013, 11:51 PM)Koren Wrote: Outside from the fact I think that Keepers are a bit more monogamous than this culture seems to be in contrast to the Seekers who seem to be more polyamorous... Â so I don't know how well that would work ^_^; Also they seem to have big families which take care of their own averse to the Keeper's more isolationist feel... I get the sense from how they're written they wouldn't necessarily take in family from another tribe so tending to the elderly or left children would actually be more of a thing.

That said there's a lot of interesting ideas here.

Duno. They like they'd need to be polyamorous too still with the few males they have. Who knows~

It seems like a big cultural thing to happen to not mention... especially when they go through great lengths to describe the breeding culture for the Sun Seekers.

The options are either:

1. Â They happened to forget to describe the Moon Keepers are polyamorous even after going through describing the breeding rights of the Sun Seekers in full detail along with names for their breeding specifications, situations, and cultural norms... they just forgot...

2. Â The Keepers aren't polyamorous.

It could be the case but it doesn't seem to make logical sense that they just "forgot" to mention a key bit of lore for one group after going over it in detail for another. Â Given the matriarchal ideal and the fact that female Miqo'te were known for going off into the world at much higher rates it seems much more likely that, rather than forgetting to write lore, less female Miqo'te of the Moon Keepers settle down to form families. Â After all, they aren't necessarily needed for breeding stock and families are small anyhow. Â Further a little under half of the NPCs from 1.0 appeared to be Sun Seekers (the ones with names. Â Since some of the Moon Keepers had Sun Seekers names I might have miscounted mobs). Â Given traditions and who-leaves-where it seems to work itself out there.

Another alternative: The breeding traditions of Keepers weren't nearly as relevant to their naming styles. That was a naming conventions thread, after all. I'm sure we'll find out more in game.
And only one Keeper in 1.0 had a Seeker of the Sun name. Damn confusing dancer girl from Ul'dah.

allgivenover · **08-15-2013, 12:33 AM**

My own personal take on it is that Keepers pretty much did whatever they wanted. Reasons being that monogamy wouldn't be exactly common due to there being so few males, one male to one female would mean a lot of females with no potential mate. There's no way the Keepers could have survived as a distinctive, separate clan under a 1:1 pairing system for thousands of years, and some Keeper names have been around for several eras.
However, they don't have the Tia/Nunh social structure either. According to this quest dialogue from a guildlevel in phase 2 and 3, Keepers do have breeding males. Here is the screenshot I took.

[Image: aCBXBRR.png]

A breeding male implies multiple partners, but as SE is unlikely to give us details on how this all works in detail any time soon, and the fact that Keeper society is "highly matriarchal", here is how I'm rolling with it:

The females pretty much choose what they want to do. If they favor a single male above all others, they might choose only him to ever couple with - this is in fact how my character's mother was, she only ever paired with Rakka'li's father, but she didn't care when he roamed elsewhere.Â

Depending on her personality it's not impossible that a female Miqo'te Keeper might try to hoard a male all to herself, but I think that's unlikely, due to the whole rarity of males thing. She may only ever choose him, but not really care if he goes off and pairs off with another female at a different time.Â

For a while I considered the possibility that the males don't get any choice at all on the matter of pairing, but I discarded that after it was made clear that Keeper males are even more solitary and reclusive than other Miqo'te (or tend to be, my own is a bit more sociable, but he very much enjoys being "alone in a crowd").

Another user, Myxie Tryxle, wrote out a rather well thought out piece on Miqo'te mating habits, though keep in mind it's all written from a purely animal evolutionary biology perspective, so the mileage varies from one RPer to the next how much of it they want to apply to their own RP. At the least it's a good explanation as to why monogamy is likely not a usual behavior for Miqo'teÂ http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=2961, at least traditionally. There are plenty of characters who break the mold, and really breaking that mold might be an attractive prospect for a female.Â

Keep in mind that all this doesn't mean that Miqo'te can't fall in love or care for one another, it just means that likely do not pair in a monogamous way, or have much of a connection between love and sex. Additionally, keep in mind there's a bit more freedom to work with compared to the Seeker side of the Miqo'te coin. Keepers are said to run in small tribes that are no more than two or three families in size, so it's entirely possible that customs vary from tribe to tribe. I'm sure you can find a way to make it all fit for you and the RP you want.

Aysun · **08-15-2013, 12:45 AM**

Thanks for posting that screenshot. I knew there was another reason I was leaning towards them being polyamorous, I just couldn't remember what it was.

synaesthetic · **08-15-2013, 04:26 AM**

Useful information, that. It gives me a better explanation for why my chara has a somewhat casual view of sexual partners for something other than "reasons." This should make it easier to set up the story between another of my characters.

Taeh Niumoenwyn · **08-15-2013, 05:01 AM**

In the animal kingdom not all matriarchal groups allow every female to mate, from http://www.doublexscience.org/dominants-...thers-day/

Quote:Meerkats: Meerkat societies are highly structured, with a complex ranking system based on dominance. If you want to get ahead in the meerkat world, perfect the art of chin swiping and hip checking, practiced on those lower down the totem pole while someone more powerful than you is looking the other way. Being on top has its rewards; alpha female meerkats are the only ones who get to mate in meerkat town. A matriarch chooses her partner, who becomes the dominant (and only mating) male. Males initiate copulation by ritually grooming the female until she submits. If the matriarch tires of her partner, heâ€™s quickly deposed by beta males who are more than eager to earn a chance at mating. Alpha females make all the decisions in the group: where to sleep, where to burrow, when to go outside, when to forage. Like bees, meerkat females are typically mother to all the pups in the group (females typically kill pups born of unsanctioned unions). In addition to being free to engage in mating, being a matriarchal meerkat comes with free baby-sitting and nursemaid service from the subordinate females (who also will lactate to feed her pups). The downside is that all the other females want your job; as they get older, the young females start hip-checking, stealing food, and even picking fights. Often, the alpha kicks young competitors out of the group before they get old enough to pose a threat.

If this was how Keeper families worked then it would explain why some young females and perhaps males leave their family group.

Jomoru · **08-15-2013, 06:17 AM**

(08-15-2013, 12:33 AM)allgivenover Wrote: My own personal take on it is that Keepers pretty much did whatever they wanted. Reasons being that monogamy wouldn't be exactly common due to there being so few males, one male to one female would mean a lot of females with no potential mate. There's no way the Keepers could have survived as a distinctive, separate clan under a 1:1 pairing system for thousands of years, and some Keeper names have been around for several eras.

Or they could have small groups of breeding couples surounded by a larger family of lesbian aunts who allow the smaller group of heterosexuals to have more children in particular.

Myxie Tryxle · **08-15-2013, 06:22 AM**

The way I've argued this in other threads on the subject is that monogamy may exist under the Keepers, but it wouldn't be the norm. There's way too much incentive for males to be promiscuous. If they paired up 1 to 1 and half the population had no mate, there would be a coup or rampant adultery or both. I've also read that males are reclusive and tend to be nomadic, so polyamory just makes the most sense to me. For my own backstory, I'm having Myxie's dad experience wanderlust, traveling around and never spending more than a couple months in any single place but tending to return to the same communities around the same time year after year.

As for only the top females breeding, this is also unlikely. Even if it did exist in this fashion at some point, exposure to the other races (Hyur, etc.) would likely break down that barrier. Wolves, for example, have alpha structures where only the top male and top female breed. Dogs, the domesticated siblings of wolves, don't experience that same restriction, indicating it was removed during the domestication process. Also given that there are more Keepers than Seekers, it's unlikely the Keepers have a more restrictive breeding system than the Seekers.

As for bees, I wouldn't use them as a point of comparison. Hive insects like bees have a haplodiploid chromosome system for gender determination versus the diploid system we tend to think of as normal. As far as I know, haplodiploid doesn't exist in any mammal species, only in some insects and rotifers.

You may find a fair amount of what you're looking for in a thread I did a while ago on Miqo'te Mating Strategies. There's a fair amount of good discussion there on many points surrounding this issue.

Azelle · **08-15-2013, 07:33 AM**

I appreciate the discussion going on but would have like to have it stay a wee bit more on topic aka: the video I linked.

The big points coming from that specific matriarchal culture is the walking marriage, where a man who is attracted or in love with a woman would try to visit her at night unless she made clear to him she was not interested. If she lets him in, a sweet night can occur but he has to leave in the morning (which could fit well with keepers solitary nature).

Since it's based on love I think it fits well a tribe that favors Menphina the Lover.

In-game this can translate that first, a Â breeding male can simply be a male that is sexually active (found a willing female), not necessarely chosen amongst many and second monogamy OR polygamy can occurs. A male could be in love and come back often to the same female until they grow tired of each others. A male could also try to visit several willing females or even visit outside his 1-3 family unit (which would still fits well withing matriarchal society habits). Since Keepers are pretty independant I would not be surprised if short terms relations are the usual and that would give the males many partners and thus assuring the tribe survival (the usual but not the ONLY option).

A tradition of hunting means someone must stay to care for the children, hence where the family unit comes to play. The older females and pregnant ones and maybe the odd male who is getting too old and needs to be taken care of. That keeps the females free to do whatever they need to and the males able to roam as they wish. Of course the uncles playing and watching over kids in the video could not be possible to that extent since keeper males are few in numbers.

That also bring out another point. How the heck are we going to RP that males are rare when in-game we'll have a TON of them? hehee. As hard as I want to play with canon lore, the actual thing happening in-game is kinda making it a nonsense.

Taeh Niumoenwyn · **08-15-2013, 07:46 AM**

(08-15-2013, 07:33 AM)Azelle Wrote: I appreciate the discussion going on but would have like to have it stay a wee bit more on topic aka: the video I linked.

Sorry.

(08-15-2013, 07:33 AM)Azelle Wrote: The big points coming from that specific matriarchal culture is the walking marriage, where a man who is attracted or in love with a woman would try to visit her at night unless she made clear to him she was not interested. If she lets him in, a sweet night can occur but he has to leave in the morning (which could fit well with keepers solitary nature).

Since it's based on love I think it fits well a tribe that favors Menphina the Lover.

In-game this can translate that first, a Â breeding male can simply be a male that is sexually active (found a willing female), not necessarely chosen amongst many and second monogamy OR polygamy can occurs. A male could be in love and come back often to the same female until they grow tired of each others. A male could also try to visit several willing females or even visit outside his 1-3 family unit (which would still fits well withing matriarchal society habits). Since Keepers are pretty independant I would not be surprised if short terms relations are the usual and that would give the males many partners and thus assuring the tribe survival (the usual but not the ONLY option).

A tradition of hunting means someone must stay to care for the children, hence where the family unit comes to play. The older females and pregnant ones and maybe the odd male who is getting too old and needs to be taken care of. That keeps the females free to do whatever they need to and the males able to roam as they wish. Of course the uncles playing and watching over kids in the video could not be possible to that extent since keeper males are few in numbers.

I must admit that I haven't watch the video but the way you describe it does make a lot of sense, I like it. Thumbsup

Azelle · **08-15-2013, 07:51 AM**

*gasps* go watch it hehee, really it's such a good watch.

FreelanceWizard · **08-15-2013, 09:08 AM**

Overall, I think the video's concept is entirely plausible, though of course care should be taken with using it since, well, it's not lore, nor especially supported by existing lore. To the best of my knowledge, though, it doesn't contradict anything we know about Keepers which, honestly, is not much. (For what it's worth, the "meerkat" concept also works.) So, it definitely seems like something people can reasonably use for their backstories if they want. Smile

That said...

(08-15-2013, 07:33 AM)Azelle Wrote: How the heck are we going to RP that males are rare when in-game we'll have a TON of them? hehee. As hard as I want to play with canon lore, the actual thing happening in-game is kinda making it a nonsense.

It's not so big of a problem when you consider that the PCs are a subset of adventurers, who are themselves a subset of all Eorzeans. Given the issues male miqo'te have culturally, it makes sense to me that more of them would be adventurers than you'd expect by the general population distribution. That's why we see more male miqo'te PCs, but relatively few NPCs. The male miqo'te are still rare, they're just less rare among PCs because they self-select to be adventurers more often than the general populace.

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Miqo'te, Keepers of the Moon - matriarchy

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