RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Lament · **10-01-2013, 04:26 AM**

Faye already addressed pretty much everything else beautifully, but I will say this:

Being tolerant of different approaches to RP does not imply being tolerant of being an awful person. If you're being inconsiderate, inappropriate, doing anything illegal, or generally being disruptive of everyone else's fun, you need to go.

It does imply that, as long as you aren't doing anything illegal or harmful and everyone involved is in agreement/consents, you can, yes, do whatever you want. Even if it's something that I personally wouldn't participate in.

(I should note that I don't consider being disruptive in general a 'wrong' approach to RP - roleplay to me is just playing a role, and there are tons of ways to do that, including sketchy ones. But I'm a person first and a roleplayer second; RP will never excuse being a horrible person.)

Daca'li Molkoh · **10-01-2013, 04:31 AM**

Pretty much everyone has said my thoughts on the matter. Sure, you may not be able to respond to certain things or notice every detail realistically, but in my opinion I enjoy it. I read because I enjoy writing--I like seeing what an author can do and how they can portray a scene. For instance, for me, there are two views here--an OOC one and an IC one. OOC, I enjoy seeing what another writer can do. I like to see the skill and time they dedicate while making a character. When I see a long post that has some extra details to it, like how a character may view my character form a past experience through the hint of an emotion that my IC self might not see but the OOC can, I can find entertainment in that. The writing to me as the player catches me and draws me in and encourages me to put the same effort in. My IC self may be oblivious to the fact that someone is lost or confused or feeling uncomfortable if they aren't showing it on their expression, but I may be entertained to know that on an OOC level. ICly, I may be making someone feel like a King without realising it, when I'm actually trying to insult them IC or something. I can find humour in that and have it continued by my character still being oblivious to the fact that my intended target is indeed unphased.Â

I hope that made sense. xD

ryanxwonbin · **10-01-2013, 04:37 AM**

As someone who does forum RPs and particularly gets irked when I see 20 long paragraphs of writing that are that long just for the sake of being long, I cannot understand the complaint here. From what I understand, your problem is that people are RPing their internal feelings and you can't reply to them. So what? I as a person want to know what other characters are thinking and feeling even if my character doesn't. And most veterans should be good enough not to metagame such knowledge in RPs.

Katanyae · **10-01-2013, 06:25 AM**

(10-01-2013, 12:19 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: It doesn't really matter whether it's a hobby or a professional job - everything in existence can be handled incorrectly whether people want to admit it or not. I suppose it's because I'm a realist but I've never really believed in the mantra of there being no right or wrong method when tackling a task. Incidentally, when multiple people are involved in a particular activity then there's the additional element of accountability to consider.
If someone isn't a team player and has no intention of improving themselves then they deserve to be called out in a constructive manner. I don't really believe in brushing issues under the rug, though I do try to eliminate the bad apples from my radar entirely and seek to offer aid to those who show promise and a willingness to learn.

Role-play is typically done for the sake of enjoyment. Some people take it more seriously than others and are invested to different degrees. If 'no one cared' about these things then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. There needs to be an element of balance involved in role-play. Too much elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as dangerous and damaging. Creativity doesn't thrive when it's stifled at every turn, though it doesn't thrive if anything and everything is branded a 'good try' even when it's outright awful, inappropriate or illegal.

I...I cannot honestly believe that someone actually said that 'too much' elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as bad.

Wow. Just...wow. I'm glad you're on Balmung.Â

I mean, I regret not being on the same server as Roleplay Royalty...but I'll somehow survive.

Faye · **10-01-2013, 06:29 AM**

(10-01-2013, 06:25 AM)Katanyae Wrote:
(10-01-2013, 12:19 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: It doesn't really matter whether it's a hobby or a professional job - everything in existence can be handled incorrectly whether people want to admit it or not. I suppose it's because I'm a realist but I've never really believed in the mantra of there being no right or wrong method when tackling a task. Incidentally, when multiple people are involved in a particular activity then there's the additional element of accountability to consider.
If someone isn't a team player and has no intention of improving themselves then they deserve to be called out in a constructive manner. I don't really believe in brushing issues under the rug, though I do try to eliminate the bad apples from my radar entirely and seek to offer aid to those who show promise and a willingness to learn.

Role-play is typically done for the sake of enjoyment. Some people take it more seriously than others and are invested to different degrees. If 'no one cared' about these things then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. There needs to be an element of balance involved in role-play. Too much elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as dangerous and damaging. Creativity doesn't thrive when it's stifled at every turn, though it doesn't thrive if anything and everything is branded a 'good try' even when it's outright awful, inappropriate or illegal.

"Too much tolerance is bad"???? Really?

Wow. I'm glad you're on Balmung.Â

I mean, I regret not being on the same server as Roleplay Royalty...but I'll somehow survive.

While I found that statement entirely baffling myself... let's not judge an entire server based on one person. Gilgamesh has some bad eggs, too--and certainly no less quantity or quality than Balmung.

Katanyae · **10-01-2013, 06:31 AM**

(10-01-2013, 06:29 AM)Faye Wrote:
(10-01-2013, 06:25 AM)Katanyae Wrote:
(10-01-2013, 12:19 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: It doesn't really matter whether it's a hobby or a professional job - everything in existence can be handled incorrectly whether people want to admit it or not. I suppose it's because I'm a realist but I've never really believed in the mantra of there being no right or wrong method when tackling a task. Incidentally, when multiple people are involved in a particular activity then there's the additional element of accountability to consider.
If someone isn't a team player and has no intention of improving themselves then they deserve to be called out in a constructive manner. I don't really believe in brushing issues under the rug, though I do try to eliminate the bad apples from my radar entirely and seek to offer aid to those who show promise and a willingness to learn.

Role-play is typically done for the sake of enjoyment. Some people take it more seriously than others and are invested to different degrees. If 'no one cared' about these things then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. There needs to be an element of balance involved in role-play. Too much elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as dangerous and damaging. Creativity doesn't thrive when it's stifled at every turn, though it doesn't thrive if anything and everything is branded a 'good try' even when it's outright awful, inappropriate or illegal.

"Too much tolerance is bad"???? Really?

Wow. I'm glad you're on Balmung.Â

I mean, I regret not being on the same server as Roleplay Royalty...but I'll somehow survive.

While I found that statement entirely baffling myself... let's not judge an entire server based on one person. Gilgamesh has some bad eggs, too--and certainly no less quantity or quality than Balmung.

Agreed. My apologies to Balmung.

***Alothia*** · **10-01-2013, 07:26 AM**

THIS.

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.
If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

Faye · **10-01-2013, 07:46 AM**

(10-01-2013, 07:26 AM)Alothia Wrote: THIS.

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.
If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

She apologized, though. A lecture now seems sort of asinine. To me, though, this thread is bad to begin with. Locking it seems like the best idea.

***Alothia*** · **10-01-2013, 07:54 AM**

(10-01-2013, 07:46 AM)Faye Wrote:
(10-01-2013, 07:26 AM)Alothia Wrote: THIS.

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.
If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

She apologized, though. A lecture now seems sort of asinine. To me, though, this thread is bad to begin with. Locking it seems like the best idea.

When I started typing my reply, the apology post wasn't there yet. I apologize for not noticing the apology.

Either way, bot sides are attacking each other.

K'dath · **10-01-2013, 08:31 AM**

Elitism and tolerance in excess are no different than any other extremes. You can have too much of both.

Too much elitism isn't just bad, it's awful. It is an absolute cancer on an otherwise civil community. It drives people away from open communication and collaboration in what is essentially a collaborative communication game. When you create tiers no one wins because are dividing your community for a transient sense of superiority. It's cutting off your nose to spite all those filthy nose-having casuals.

That being said, hug boxes are also terrible places. Telling everyone they can do as they wish and that no one is ever wrong undermines progression. If you don't have proper reason to do better, then why bother? If you don't have structure then there's no sense of direction. Everything becomes stagnant and trite. Some are so adamant about everyone being mired in this 'equality' to the point of being openly hostile to anyone who tries to improve because it's 'elitist'.Â

Too tolerant is just 'elitism' for the lower end of the spectrum. It's people who are not good, with no desire to get better, and are snap to condemn anyone 'above' them as an enemy of free expression. It's the exact same sense of entitlement that everyone should play by these standards.

There's nothing wrong with having standards. Everyone's will differ, some will be higher than others, but there's nothing wrong with wanting your partner to adhere to them. The issue here is how you handle it.

Curing elitism is simple. Denying someone your presence because they are an unwashed mook, unworthy of your skills? Not the right way to go about it. Instead, facilitate open communication. Collaborate with your partner and help them to achieve that standard. If you've got an open mind and some willingness to instruct it's a rewarding process where everyone's enjoyment can be vastly improved upon.

Curing entitlement can be difficult. Using 'I don't HAVE to do it your way' is a lazy, uninspired battle cry. No, of course you don't have to do it my way. You don't have to do anything and I can't make you. And I never would attempt to make you play the game any other way than how you want to. But this sort of out-right refusal to listen to well intentioned advice is just as bad as being too good to give advice.Â

I will never turn away someone because they are not 'good enough'. That doesn't help me or them. But I will say "Can I make an observation? You're using an exceeding amount of exposition in your posts and it makes them difficult to reply to, since my character can't observe your inner monologue. I can make some suggestions if you're having a hard time."

Talking it out can fix everything, given a bit of time and understanding.Â

Ultimately RP is a collaborative communication game. And games are fun. You should be having fun and not telling other people how to have fun. Helping other people to have fun is admirable, but you need to make sure you're approaching it the right way. You can't impose your fun on others, no matter where you stand.

FreelanceWizard · **10-01-2013, 08:52 AM**

(10-01-2013, 01:12 AM)Faye Wrote: Putting details about your character's inner thoughts and feelings is in absolutely, no way metagaming. Is it metagaming to post a bio for your character? Because you're sharing information about your character not only outside of your character's direct speech and actions, but even outside of your RP? That's just silly. Seeing someone share their characters unexpressed thoughts and having your character automatically know all of their character's thoughts/reasons with no logical, justifiable reason is metagaming. There's a big difference.

Since I opened up the metagaming can of worms, I guess I should explain what I meant. Smile

When a person emotes something of their internal monologue and that's not something that someone could pick up on (as opposed to not something an imperceptive character could pick up on, mind you Smile

), then there's a complication insofar as that person is telling me, the player, something about their character. The question is then, "Why has this information been put out there, and do you intend for me to use it in the scene -- to take it IC?" If it's something there's no way my character could know unless I'm in that character's head ("Person leans back in his chair. 'This is a fine mess,' he thinks, his displeasure growing while his expression remains blank."), then it'd be metagaming for me to take it IC without asking that player first.

So, since I'd have to ask OOC anyway to determine if that emote is an RP hook intended to be taken IC or something else, IMO, it's just easier to not emote that sort of information and instead offer it up OOC to other players if you want them to have it. Then there's no question about whether it's metagamed or not, since both players have agreed to that knowledge becoming IC.

Now, beyond that, I do think it's better to show and not tell, and that emoting internal state is generally problematic -- but of course, exceptions apply, and I'm not talking about standard emotes like, "Person presses her lips together and narrows her eyes in frustration," since while the "Person is frustrated" is an internal state, a reasonably perceptive character could pick that up. Smile

I'm speaking more about things along the lines of the example above.

EDIT: Oh, and just to be clear, I'm only talking about RP in game, which is a different beast from, say, forum RP. Smile

The social contract is different depending on the modality of play, I think.

IncubusManatee · **10-01-2013, 10:18 AM**

(09-30-2013, 04:33 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 04:24 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once).Â

That's a great point and a good use for those internal monologue emotes, I think. As long as it's done tastefully and carefully with no expectation of an IC response, I can see how that could add to a scene from an OOC standpoint.

Thank's Wizzy, I try hard to make everyones experiences good.

(09-30-2013, 09:09 PM)Katanyae Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 07:32 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: It's a pretty awkward situation, I find. Sadly, many role-players are likely to get up in arms and cry out about how 'they can do what they want' instead of striving to improve and be more in line with their more experienced brethren. I find myself equally irritated when people break out into a discussion in brackets about what they had to eat for dinner during what is meant to be a bit of serious role-play. As far as I'm concerned some role-play practices are more damaging and awkward than others.

So what does it take to get invited to your RP Elite country club? Yanno, cause I want to make sure I'm 'in line' with all the 'right people'Â Â Or maybe you just borrowed 'Ye Olde Roleplayers Rulebook' from the OP.Â

Different styles should be encouraged. This isn't a fucking raiding strat, formulated and homogenized. Just because someone doesn't live up to your imaginary code doesn't mean they're a bad RPer. It makes them different. And maybe they DO need to work on their trade...but don't we all? And isn't one of the best way to improve something doing it repeatedly with a good cross section of test subjects?Â

The best way to create a griefer is to treat our own like shit.

Oh you, Kat. I love you.

Now for the rest of y'all.

Try and take it easy on the snipes back and forth about servers. This thread has just gotten too far out of hand. Both sides have good RP'ers and bad RP'ers, lets agree on that. And let it go already.

Asyria · **10-01-2013, 10:19 AM**

(09-30-2013, 03:53 PM)DAISHI Wrote: Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

I'll say it one more time... there are two ways to RP through a Written medium.

1- RP is acting. You must stick to describing actions.

2- RP is writing. You may describe actions and thoughts.

Since, it's a Written medium... 2 would make more sense.. but for some reason, tha majority sticks to 1.

I don't get it.

I, as a frequent reader and occasional writer, enjoy getting insight on other character's thoughts even if my own character cannot react to them.
It's part of the pleasure of Reading.
RPing through a written medium is an exercise in group writing and reading each other's words.

We're not reading a novel?
I disagree.
I believe we very much are, except each of us write their own part.

There is NO right and wrong way to RP.
Anyone saying otherwise speak only for themselves.

Note: As interesting as inner thoughts might be (just think of what would a novel about the show Dexter would be without his inner monologue, or worse, how the show itself would become), it's common courtesy to also give something, action or dialog, for others to respond to, otherwise things will stagnate.

Katanyae · **10-01-2013, 10:25 AM**

(10-01-2013, 07:26 AM)Alothia Wrote: THIS.

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.
If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

Â
Please read my post. I didn't brand a whole server. I said "I AM GLAD YOU ARE ON BALMUNG". You. An individual.

Context? So I don't have to run into the person as I am on Gil.

Be offended if you must; I apologized already to someone else that missed the context, as I didn't want someone ELSE to misread it.

Asyria · **10-01-2013, 10:32 AM**

So at first I just replied t the OP because that topic always comes up and those who enjoy sharing and reading inner monologue or thoughts are always looked down upon by those who think "it's wrong"...

But I've read a few of the posts now.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???

Must EVERY debate always have to end with Balmung vs Giglamesh or Elitism accusations or some stupid waste of forum space like that??

For the Twelves' sake, just shut it down already. >.<

Live and let live, anyone?

You're Not Writing A Novel

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes