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FreelanceWizard · **11-02-2013, 01:59 PM**

(11-02-2013, 01:27 PM)Knahli Wrote: Oh, that made me think. Are battles realistic or do people actually us in-game moves and buffs and behave as though their characters suffer a barrage of arrows or sword strikes and merely lose "HP"? I have to say that wouldn't interest me at all. I definitely prefer realism.

In my experience, "HP" in an RP combat system is closer to wounds in White Wolf, wherein injuries are actually reflected in the RP. The "HP" is just a measure of "how many times you can be hit before you're incapacitated," and the implementation of each hit is emoting the injury you've taken that starts degrading your combat efficacy. While I don't doubt there are some who take a more generic approach ("I hit you with some arrows!" "I lose 1 HP. I swing my sword in a giant arc!"), I think that's less common and, IMO, less fun.

For true realism, one might add a wound penalty, but in my experience, that slows things down too much in an MMO, as it adds more modifiers into the mix. Calculating modifiers can be something of a pain.

Since we're talking mechanics now, if anyone's interested in that system I had for CoH (which has similar "combat moves" as Ninian's, but fewer of them, as well as mechanics for "superpowers"), you can grab a copy here. It might have some insights that some could use. Smile

Ninian Lune'ciel · **11-02-2013, 02:11 PM**

Thanks for all of the responses, everyone. Going off of what you've told me from your experiences, Siobhain, I think I really have a lot to take in now.

Addressing what everyone has been saying about combat and hp, it's also as Siobhain says, being realistic combat (via emotes) that leads into the system.

As far as hit points and wounds go, my system is open ended to the characters fighting, but my preference has always been failing rolls may not mean you're taking a sword to the stomach, but being pushed back or struggling to defend yourself in a way that a success would have more seamless accomplished.

If I do begin any type of 'arena', it would probably be styled in the first person to take a significant hit or to draw blood from the torso is the loser, making the fight not necessarily the same contest of skill and strength a fight to the death may be, justifying your character being able to be beat.

synaesthetic · **11-02-2013, 02:41 PM**

I don't roleplay combat unless the game engine allows me to actually attack the person. In games with a dueling option it makes things a lot more exciting than having an emote-fight.

In games without a dueling option, like XIV, combat is handled through short fics and forum RP.

Val · **11-02-2013, 04:48 PM**

I tend to follow the Ayenee rules of T1 engagement when it comes to combat. I began RPing back in the Yahoo/Cheetachat days some time ago and fell in with a crowd there that helped to write the rules and, more or less, standardize the various styles of RP combat (T1, T2, and T3).

That being said, here's a great guide to T1 (turn-based) combat:

http://www.roleplaygateway.com/type-turn...t4212.html

LiadansWhisper · **11-02-2013, 05:09 PM**

(11-02-2013, 04:48 PM)Val Wrote: I tend to follow the Ayenee rules of T1 engagement when it comes to combat. I began RPing back in the Yahoo/Cheetachat days some time ago and fell in with a crowd there that helped to write the rules and, more or less, standardize the various styles of RP combat (T1, T2, and T3).

That being said, here's a great guide to T1 (turn-based) combat:

http://www.roleplaygateway.com/type-turn...t4212.html

Excuse me while I freak out at finding another fellow Ayeneer. Â ^_^

Magellan · **11-02-2013, 05:59 PM**

(11-02-2013, 01:27 PM)K Wrote: Oh, that made me think. Are battles realistic or do people actually us in-game moves and buffs and behave as though their characters suffer a barrage of arrows or sword strikes and merely lose "HP"? I have to say that wouldn't interest me at all. I definitely prefer realism.

Just a personal opinion of course! ^^

This is what I've run into repeatedly. People who can take a fire spell to the face and be fine, because you can do so in game. A few times I've been told I'm rping my character as 'weak' (even though they were supposed to be strong) because I've rp'd them taking damage from significant blows thrown their way, and taking them out of the fight early. I've also run into a lot of 'cure heals everything' and even a removal of the consequence of death, because hey... lore allows for it. (As in respawning at your home point)

At which point I pretty much just gave up on combat rp altogether. That was the fantastical combat I was referring to. It's not my taste preference, but it seems to be the majority of what I run into.

Val · **11-02-2013, 06:27 PM**

(11-02-2013, 05:59 PM)Magellan Wrote:
(11-02-2013, 01:27 PM)K Wrote: Oh, that made me think. Are battles realistic or do people actually us in-game moves and buffs and behave as though their characters suffer a barrage of arrows or sword strikes and merely lose "HP"? I have to say that wouldn't interest me at all. I definitely prefer realism.

Just a personal opinion of course! ^^

This is what I've run into repeatedly. People who can take a fire spell to the face and be fine, because you can do so in game. A few times I've been told I'm rping my character as 'weak' (even though they were supposed to be strong) because I've rp'd them taking damage from significant blows thrown their way, and taking them out of the fight early. I've also run into a lot of 'cure heals everything' and even a removal of the consequence of death, because hey... lore allows for it. (As in respawning at your home point)

At which point I pretty much just gave up on combat rp altogether. That was the fantastical combat I was referring to. It's not my taste preference, but it seems to be the majority of what I run into.

I don't treat cure as an end-all for RP combat. When Val gets healed, he's certainly had his wounds closed--but he also still has to deal with fatigue, blood loss, and other things that cure simply will NOT mend.

LandStander · **11-02-2013, 06:34 PM**

(11-02-2013, 05:59 PM)Magellan Wrote:
(11-02-2013, 01:27 PM)K Wrote: Oh, that made me think. Are battles realistic or do people actually us in-game moves and buffs and behave as though their characters suffer a barrage of arrows or sword strikes and merely lose "HP"? I have to say that wouldn't interest me at all. I definitely prefer realism.

Just a personal opinion of course! ^^

This is what I've run into repeatedly. People who can take a fire spell to the face and be fine, because you can do so in game. A few times I've been told I'm rping my character as 'weak' (even though they were supposed to be strong) because I've rp'd them taking damage from significant blows thrown their way, and taking them out of the fight early. I've also run into a lot of 'cure heals everything' and even a removal of the consequence of death, because hey... lore allows for it. (As in respawning at your home point)

At which point I pretty much just gave up on combat rp altogether. That was the fantastical combat I was referring to. It's not my taste preference, but it seems to be the majority of what I run into.

Yeah, I have run into some people like this as well. I play a really tough woman who is able to take hits and keep on trucking, but that doesn't mean she does not get injured or is invincible. As a matter of fact, she is constantly getting thrashed, injured, and her ass kicked because I don't play her like some super hero. Leave the Dragon Balls at home people Tongue

I think its okay to play your character as someone who is strong or whatever, but they aren't superman or T-1000. Healing magic helps speed up the process of healing, but its not a fix all. "Oh, my arm got ripped off. I'll just put it where it should belong and then cast magic, and ta-daa, arm is better!" Also in regards to the whole home point thing, they said not everyone is able to do this as often (and some are not able to do this at all) as others. Not to mention traversing through the lifestream is extremely taxing on the person.Â

I just think people need to realize that their character is not the most bad ass of the bad asses no matter how cool they are written as. RPing in an MMO setting means its not entirely about your character as you have to interact with 10's if not 100's of others and they also have their own story to tell. I personally prefer to just RP the combat out instead of rolling because I feel like it gives me the opportunity to showcase her strengths and weaknesses. Plus she likes to drink heavily before fighting to loosen up her body and numb her to pain a bit more so its fun having her stumble around and fall off balance, lol.

All and all, I have really enjoyed RP combat on FFXIV so far as I have ran into very few god-modders.

FreelanceWizard · **11-02-2013, 06:44 PM**

(11-02-2013, 06:34 PM)LandStander Wrote: Healing magic helps speed up the process of healing, but its not a fix all. "Oh, my arm got ripped off. I'll just put it where it should belong and then cast magic, and ta-daa, arm is better!"

In fairness, that does depend on how you view healing magic working -- and there's a lot of different views on it, as the big thread on these forums represents. Smile

How curative magic works is definitely something the participants in an RP fight need to work out in advance, and that includes the implications of the choice made in the context of the fight.

Ninian Lune'ciel · **11-03-2013, 12:39 PM**

(11-02-2013, 02:41 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I don't roleplay combat unless the game engine allows me to actually attack the person. In games with a dueling option it makes things a lot more exciting than having an emote-fight.

In games without a dueling option, like XIV, combat is handled through short fics and forum RP.

In game options are always useful, though it presents issues for characters who may not be of level or in the right type of gear for the sake of their character's appearance. While vanity items (will) fix this issue to some extent, there are in game mechanics that still limit roleplay. In FFXIV, a Black Mage may specialize only in ice magic, which may allow them to play their character in emotes, but would ultimately ruin in the class in any battle situation.

Using emotes to fight is no different than using emotes in any other type of roleplay, just that you need to think a bit more objectively about your characters movements and actions in regards to the person you're roleplaying with.

Val's link has incredibly well worded explanations of everything that should be in an attacking and defending post, and it makes me happy I decided to start this discussion.

On a separate note however, I wanted to know if anyone with any experience in these sorts of D20 systems has any opinions, balance-wise on what I've posted. Or even if they feel like it's too much to be played in-game and should be simplified a bit more. I'm really trying to go for simplicity, but still retaining a certain degree of player input.

FreelanceWizard · **11-03-2013, 01:12 PM**

(11-03-2013, 12:39 PM)Ninian Luneciel Wrote: On a separate note however, I wanted to know if anyone with any experience in these sorts of D20 systems has any opinions, balance-wise on what I've posted. Or even if they feel like it's too much to be played in-game and should be simplified a bit more. I'm really trying to go for simplicity, but still retaining a certain degree of player input.

Please take this as an honest critique! I'm not trying to be mean. Blush

Looking your system over, I notice it doesn't take level into account -- and that's fine, of course, if that's what you want to do, but it also means that everything has to be viewed from the perspective of purely chance and that a D20 has a flat probability distribution (i.e., every roll has an equal chance of coming up as any number).

When you consider that and that criticals require triple the other player's roll, you can't crit if your opponents rolls a 7 or better unless Counter comes into play (in which case you can't crit on an 11 or better if the -4 Defense is next round, or 8 or better if it's this round). That means that, 70% of the time (50%/65% on a Counter), you can't possibly crit, no matter what you roll -- and even then, your chance of a crit is pretty low. As a result, planning your action choice based on the possibility of a critical is never a good idea, because the possibility of it happening is so remote.

If you further add into that the non-stacking duration and effect of the penalties, as well as the fact that the only way to disable someone is by dropping their HP to zero, the best course of action is always to take an action that maximizes your Defense or does damage, as that's the only way you have to end the fight or to protect your HP. As a result, the best course of action is to Strike on attack and Guard on defense. Feigning only improves your likelihood to hit by 15%, and a rational actor on defense will know that Guard is always a net positive -- if you don't Feign, it makes them harder to hit, and if you do, it negates its effects. A Break can't do damage except on a very rare crit, so it serves no purpose except as a defense against Counter.

On the defensive side, Guard is always the best choice. While Evade seems useful, using it opens you up to Feigns that increase the likelihood of HP loss -- and since level's not an issue, you have no real way of predicting the likelihood of being hit, so opening yourself up is fairly dangerous. Counter is never a good idea, because crits are rare (and rarer still if you Counter, since you take a -4 to your roll, which means you can only crit if your opponent rolls an 8 or less, which is only 5% better than it normally is).

So... in aggregate... I think the big issue of the system is that the flat probability curve of the d20, combined with no other fixed modifiers or visibility to actions chosen to help people predict their likelihood of being hit, means that there's an irrelevance of alternatives; Strike/Guard is the best, safest course of action. There's a couple of ways around this if you want to keep the three actions. One way is to have a "Rock/Paper/Scissors" system, wherein picking the "winning" action of a pair gives you a big bonus (+3? +5?) and tying or losing gives no bonus. The actions should have no other effects. That way, there's a reason for people to pick other actions. Another option is to allow people to, instead of doing damage, stack up the amount they hit by as a bonus to a subsequent attack or defense; that way, people can take advantage of "high risk/reward" actions like Counter if they make some lucky rolls. A third option is to change to a die with a probability curve. 2d6, for instance, centers on 7 with higher and lower numbers increasingly rare. That gives people something to consider in their actions, since they know their opponent will most likely roll a 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9. You might also consider having actions stack durations or effects, or have lingering effects; for instance, Break comes useful if it stops the current and next defensive action, as opposed to just the current one.

Ninian Lune'ciel · **11-03-2013, 03:15 PM**

Please don't think I'll take criticism as a personal insult. That's exactly the reason why I wanted outside opinions. You've even given me the percentage based math of it, so you've helped me more than you know, Freelance.

To address some of your issues, I was intending this to be a system free of levels. While it's always a topic for debate in MMOs, I feel like FFXIV's more fluid level system makes it difficult to really place (especially experienced) characters at any given level. While I have my IC ways of justifying those sorts of aspects of the system, primarily how I plan to stage these types of fights, I'm hoping that much to be a non-issue.

For criticals, I actually have the number exactly where I want it to be, being roughly 30% of the time. Something has always urked me about the 5% chance of rolling 20s (even doubling or tripling your critical range seems blah -.-). At 30%, especially with a (rough) minimum of 7 actions per battle, it keeps them at least statistically significant. For this reason, I wanted critical effects to certainly be beneficial, though not terribly ground breaking.

The biggest fix I need to make are on individual skill actions to make sure they are at least moderately balanced. Feign is one of my larger issues, as you've been able to point out, though I personally do like counter. The chances are always moderately low, but it's the only defensive ability that allows you to deal damage, making it a calculated (and stylish) risk.

I'm trying to avoid a 'rock, paper, scissors' game, as that relies on the trusting the moderator not to pick a side. Using that d20 system the Grindstone uses, it eliminates all possible cheating, as moderators in this system are just to factor in the mechanics.

But hm, mechanics. I've been considering replacing feign entirely, as the mechanic seems a bit too simple and easy to simply not use, though it does actually prevent your enemy from using critical fairly well, lowering that already decently small window. I don't love it, but I can't bring myself to hate it, either.

Along with Evade, those moves play some role in affecting critical chance, but I want to make sure it's enough for what else they do. I'm considering making break deal damage on non-critical hits, just to add more 'offense' to my 'offensive abilities', but it seems a bit sad to change the mechanic. It would require making strike grant some other buff, but I feel like I'll be making it too complex at that point.

Edit: Oh! and while I do like lingering effects, my take on a minimalistic system means not having to keep track of too much. I have abilities that bleed into the next round, but I'm trying to limit it to that.

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