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Sounsyy · **01-16-2014, 10:59 PM**

(01-16-2014, 10:20 PM)ansemaru Wrote: I thought summoning/killing a Primal disrupted the flow of aether, rather than destroying aether forever. The issue would be the massive concentrations of it that then disperse over very specific locations, rather than "massive concentration>oh that aether is gone forever".

Also, now I've got another question. If the Primals were created as the servants of the Twelve, why are they so universally regarded as the pinnacle of evil? As far as I know, they never rebelled like the Scions in Ivalice... Or, for that matter, why would the Twelve create servants that disrupt the world and damage its balance of aether/Hydaelyn so much?

Actually, are the Twelve even aligned with Hydaelyn?

Well the Twelve used to war amongst each other. Considering the Primals hatred for one another, I would imagine that they were the Twelve's instruments of war. Which could mean that the beastmen tribes were in fact made by the Primals as a means of warring amongst other Gods' Primals.

And it's never explicitly stated that the Twelve are good. We just worship them. Doesn't make them good haha. The Garleans certainly don't see them as good.

ansemaru · **01-16-2014, 11:05 PM**

It's kind of weird, to be honest... There's nothing telling us the Twelve are benevolent, or even what we think they are. And honestly, the fact that they could be summoned just the same as Primals makes it seem that they're not what people accept at face value at all!

I mean, it's sort of a staple of FF at this point that religious authorities and gods aren't necessarily trustworthy, and more often than not end up being antagonists. The Church of Saint Ajora, Yevon, the Occuria, the Fal'Cie, the Warring Triad... at this point, it's honestly more shocking to find a wholly benevolent religious organization or deity than one that is antagonistic or at least dangerously apathetic to the plight of mankind. I know it's easy to say "oh, the Primals are the evil gods in FFXIV", but at the same time, isn't that like assuming the Scions in FFXII are the ultimate evil?

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 11:30 PM**

(01-16-2014, 11:05 PM)ansemaru Wrote: It's kind of weird, to be honest... There's nothing telling us the Twelve are benevolent, or even what we think they are. And honestly, the fact that they could be summoned just the same as Primals makes it seem that they're not what people accept at face value at all!

I mean, it's sort of a staple of FF at this point that religious authorities and gods aren't necessarily trustworthy, and more often than not end up being antagonists. The Church of Saint Ajora, Yevon, the Occuria, the Fal'Cie, the Warring Triad... at this point, it's honestly more shocking to find a wholly benevolent religious organization or deity than one that is antagonistic or at least dangerously apathetic to the plight of mankind. I know it's easy to say "oh, the Primals are the evil gods in FFXIV", but at the same time, isn't that like assuming the Scions in FFXII are the ultimate evil?

The biggest difference in this case is that there doesn't appear to be a truly "organized" religion. Â There are very few houses of worship, and Nald'thal, for instance, has a particularly grim aspect to him if you poke around Ul'dah for any length of time. Â It's hard to make it a worldwide conspiracy when there's no organization conspiring. Â The gods divorced themselves from mortal affairs like, 5 astral eras ago, due to the damage they had caused at that time.

Goodfellow · **01-17-2014, 06:02 PM**

(01-16-2014, 09:41 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Elementals are within every rock, tree, and river. Whether or not they choose to reveal themselves is another matter. And in most cases, even the Elementals within the Twelveswood don't reveal themselves unless angered. But they are there. They whisper to those who will listen.

So, you're saying (and I'm being convinced that) the Elementals are more akin to nature spirits in Shinto or African animist religions than to any pantheon of gods, right?

FreelanceWizard · **01-17-2014, 06:36 PM**

Based on what lore I've seen, that would seem to be the case. In the level 35 WHM quest, the questgiver notes that the trees and the elementals are one and the same. I think it's likely that the notably higher activity of the elementals of the Shroud compared to other locations is due to the high concentrations of Aether there, but that's purely speculation on my part.

ansemaru · **01-17-2014, 10:55 PM**

I undertook an effort to research into the state of the elementals as understood by the people of the Black Shroud last night. This will be a little image-heavy, but I did get confirmation of at least one of my suspicions in regards to the Calamity's role in the elementals and their role in the forest.

[Image: jSozkQG.png]

What is clearly confirmed by multiple conjurers across the Shroud is that the Calamity did in fact weaken the elementals considerably. The greenwrath, while not entirely absent from the world, is far less of a tangible threat and much less likely to be used against intruders... but Gridanian culture persists in upholding traditions based around the idea that outsiders are a threat and an invitation to the forest's wrath, and must be made to submit to the will of the elementals.

Flickering Ember · **01-18-2014, 10:27 AM**

1. Since Elementals are the land basically, do they exist in other regions of the world? They seem to only be talked about in the context of the Shroud and they seem to be the equivalent of nature spirits but the Shroud isn't the only place that is 'nature.' There are different kinds of nature, even.Â

Is it that Elementals exist in other regions of the world but it's not a part of their culture to pay any heed to them? Maybe their ways have weakened and silenced their own regions' Elementals? And perhaps that could be why Gridanians seem so xenophobic?

2. How does one become a Hearer? They're described as Conjurers but not all Conjurers are Hearers. So is it that they somehow become one while learning to be a Conjurer? Or is it that people are born Hearers and are drawn to becoming Conjurers because of their ability?

FreelanceWizard · **01-18-2014, 10:48 AM**

Great catches on those dialogue snippets, ansemaru. Smile

I had vague recollections of some of those that informed my "elementals are far less powerful in 2.x than they were in 1.x;" seeing the actual NPC dialogue is very telling. There's also Alphinaud's reiteration of that in the main scenario quest, so people outside of Gridania are aware of it, too.

It remains my supposition that the Gridanians continue in their traditions because of strong inculturation and a belief that the elementals will return to their prior strength as the forest is healed -- which makes aiding and protecting the forest an even higher priority than it was before. 5 years can't undo millennia of tradition and religious beliefs. Smile

On the flip side, though, this means that Gridanians are at least sometimes using "the elementals wouldn't like that!" as an excuse to be jerks.

(01-18-2014, 10:27 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: 1. Since Elementals are the land basically, do they exist in other regions of the world? They seem to only be talked about in the context of the Shroud and they seem to be the equivalent of nature spirits but the Shroud isn't the only place that is 'nature.' There are different kinds of nature, even.Â

Is it that Elementals exist in other regions of the world but it's not a part of their culture to pay any heed to them? Maybe their ways have weakened and silenced their own regions' Elementals? And perhaps that could be why Gridanians seem so xenophobic?

Given the presence of elemental sprites in other areas, I think it's safe to say that elementals are probably everywhere. We know that they're stronger in the Shroud than anywhere else (even diminished as they are in 2.x); the why of that is, IIRC, not really known. I'm sure some Gridanians feel that the profligate ways of the other city-states are why their elementals are silent. Outsiders were often oozing with woodsin and so were a threat to the Shroud and Gridania, which probably just reinforced that perception. In 1.x, outsiders were more or less banned from the city (if they even found it or lived to reach it) due to the wrath of the elementals, and those who were allowed in had to undergo a ritual to purge their woodsin. As for those in the other city-states, there's little need to pay heed to elementals when they don't do a whole lot (for whatever reason). Only Gridania has ever really had a significant relationship with elementals.

As it often does in XIV, it comes down to a matter of perception and degree. Smile

(01-18-2014, 10:27 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: 2. How does one become a Hearer? They're described as Conjurers but not all Conjurers are Hearers. So is it that they somehow become one while learning to be a Conjurer? Or is it that people are born Hearers and are drawn to becoming Conjurers because of their ability?

I seem to recall some quest text indicating that one is born a Hearer. Per their quest line, all Conjurers have the ability to sense and feel disturbances in the Aether around them, but that's not the same thing as being a Hearer. At any rate, if you can heal the whispers of elementals and feel their pain, that might lead you to become a Conjurer to help them; it's also possible you had no idea what that was and discovered your talent while training to be a Conjurer for other reasons.

LiadansWhisper · **01-18-2014, 03:39 PM**

(01-18-2014, 10:48 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Great catches on those dialogue snippets, ansemaru. I had vague recollections of some of those that informed my "elementals are far less powerful in 2.x than they were in 1.x;" seeing the actual NPC dialogue is very telling. There's also Alphinaud's reiteration of that in the main scenario quest, so people outside of Gridania are aware of it, too.

It remains my supposition that the Gridanians continue in their traditions because of strong inculturation and a belief that the elementals will return to their prior strength as the forest is healed -- which makes aiding and protecting the forest an even higher priority than it was before. 5 years can't undo millennia of tradition and religious beliefs. On the flip side, though, this means that Gridanians are at least sometimes using "the elementals wouldn't like that!" as an excuse to be jerks.

I think it's safe to say that some Gridanians have used that as an excuse for as long as Gridania has existed. Â I mean, it's human nature, tbh. Â

Greenwrath is apparently still enough of a threat, however, that Raya-O-Senna and A-Runh-Senna were trying to complete a very important ritual to avert it during the WHM questline. Â So it's still a threat, if a less common/present threat than it was prior to the Calamity.

Quote:
(01-18-2014, 10:27 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: 2. How does one become a Hearer? They're described as Conjurers but not all Conjurers are Hearers. So is it that they somehow become one while learning to be a Conjurer? Or is it that people are born Hearers and are drawn to becoming Conjurers because of their ability?

I seem to recall some quest text indicating that one is born a Hearer. Per their quest line, all Conjurers have the ability to sense and feel disturbances in the Aether around them, but that's not the same thing as being a Hearer. At any rate, if you can heal the whispers of elementals and feel their pain, that might lead you to become a Conjurer to help them; it's also possible you had no idea what that was and discovered your talent while training to be a Conjurer for other reasons.

This is correct. Â Hearers are born, not trained. Â They also appear to be born with a natural affinity to Conjury, whereas most Conjurers must be trained. That is not to say that Hearers don't need training - they likely need more training than your average Conjurer because they may not understand what they are hearing, or what exactly their powers do. In the case of Sylphie (one of the NPCs in the Conjurer questline), her natural affinity for Conjury did not translate to an ability to use Conjury safely. She cannibalized her own aether because she didn't realize that she could/should be using the flow of aether in nature. As a result, she nearly killed herself. There's also a side reference during the quest that Sylphie's mother (who was also an untrained Hearer) may have gone slightly mad from hearing voices she didn't really understand all of her life.

ansemaru · **01-18-2014, 06:24 PM**

There is also an NPC in the Conjurers' Guild who makes mention of being haunted by "voices" but having done nothing to anger the elementals to his knowledge. Is the implication there that he's got the abilities of a Hearer as well?

[Image: i3RbbXR.png]

LiadansWhisper · **01-18-2014, 07:23 PM**

(01-18-2014, 06:24 PM)ansemaru Wrote: There is also an NPC in the Conjurers' Guild who makes mention of being haunted by "voices" but having done nothing to anger the elementals to his knowledge. Is the implication there that he's got the abilities of a Hearer as well?

It could be. Â It could also be that it's undead (you'll note there are voidsent and undead infesting parts of the Shroud, in testament to the sickness in the forest). Â It might also indicate that if you incur the ire of the Elementals, they'll make themselves known - one way or another.

ansemaru · **01-18-2014, 07:29 PM**

Are there any precedents for the undead or Voidsent actively communicating to people through dreams, though? IIRC the only Voidsent that actually gets anything approaching speech attributed to it is Mormo in the THM quest line.

LiadansWhisper · **01-18-2014, 07:37 PM**

(01-18-2014, 07:29 PM)ansemaru Wrote: Are there any precedents for the undead or Voidsent actively communicating to people through dreams, though? IIRC the only Voidsent that actually gets anything approaching speech attributed to it is Mormo in the THM quest line.

It might not be in his dreams. Â He could be literally hearing the voices of the voidsent skulking around his home. Â He says it's "waking me in the night," which would imply that they're loud enough to wake him from sleep (as opposed to being a dream).

ansemaru · **01-18-2014, 07:54 PM**

Okay, revising my question: have we any precedent for the Voidsent doing that? They seem to primarily stick to dungeons and dark places of the world unless specifically summoned, and the worst that show up in the world at large are trickster imps. We know that the elementals are evidently incapable of warding these creatures off, so it's not surprising that they wouldn't be able to drive them away from this man, but at the same time I really have to wonder how likely it is for Voidsent to sneak into a person's home, wake him, and depart without him seeing them.

I'd honestly put more faith in this NPC being an untrained hearer than on the idea that he's got secret Voidsent breaking into his home. Occam's Razor and all that.

LiadansWhisper · **01-18-2014, 07:59 PM**

(01-18-2014, 07:54 PM)ansemaru Wrote: Okay, revising my question: have we any precedent for the Voidsent doing that? They seem to primarily stick to dungeons and dark places of the world unless specifically summoned, and the worst that show up in the world at large are trickster imps. We know that the elementals are evidently incapable of warding these creatures off, so it's not surprising that they wouldn't be able to drive them away from this man, but at the same time I really have to wonder how likely it is for Voidsent to sneak into a person's home, wake him, and depart without him seeing them.

I'd honestly put more faith in this NPC being an untrained hearer than on the idea that he's got secret Voidsent breaking into his home. Occam's Razor and all that.

It could be either, but, Voidsent are not just in dungeons. Â There are various sorts of voidsent across the Shroud. Â They tend to congregate in "darker" areas, yes, but that doesn't mean that they don't move, or that there isn't a wound in the Shroud that either draws the Voidsent there or is created by them.

But yes, he could be an untrained Hearer, and like in the case of Sylphie, mortals born with the ability can misinterpret what they are hearing.

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