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Verad · **07-21-2014, 04:55 PM**

(07-21-2014, 04:41 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I don't get that read from the N/D list, personally. There's quite a few that aren't like that (e.g., Visionary, Child, Judge, Architect, Jester, Bon Vivant) and some that can be taken that way (e.g., Rebel, Critic, Director) but aren't necessarily that way. I think the Gothic-Punk element of the setting is really portrayed in the degeneration system, which drags everyone down into being a callous jerk.

Some of them admittedly vary based on the descriptive text, which is never quite the same between games. You can see where specific authors had far more negative opinions about the N/D based on the wording. Both the Hunter and Demon corebooks stress that the Child can be just as much a stubborn brat as an unsullied innocent, but the Hunter book's phrasing is far harsher: "An immature, selfish creature" compared to "a constant need for attention" in Demon. Similarly, Bon Vivant varies between "Always seeks excess and instant gratification" and "You may have serious matters to take care of, but there's nothing that says you can't have some fun along the way."

FreelanceWizard · **07-21-2014, 05:12 PM**

Oh, yes, there is that. Smile

The flavor text is always a pain in WoD mechanics (never more so than Exalted). I usually ignore that stuff and just use the terms as written, but that comes again from my perspective that personality/morality mechanics should be tools for RP and should get out of the way if they get annoying.

Mae · **07-21-2014, 08:41 PM**

I use a personal greyscale system, where I assign a 'natural/starting state' and then determine a range that I feel the character should be free to move around in that extends towards both black and white. If I find that I'm joining in RP that's closer to the darker side, the natural/starting state might start to slip that direction, and if the opposite happens, she can start moving towards the white.

If I were to put it in numbers, with 1 being white and 20 being black, Kara sits at 12, with a range of 4 to 14 -- her natural state, she's a bit lacking in morals and can slip to a bit worse, but she has potential to be a pretty good person.

Aya · **07-21-2014, 08:43 PM**

In more seriousness... Smile

The demands on an alignment system really depend upon the setting, and the intent of the campaign being played (which are shaped but not pre-determined by the game and setting themselves).

I have been critical of the DnD Alignment system in a few posts, but in reality I think their alignment system fits the typical play of the game very well (and the simplified version of 4th Edition, fits it just as well too).Â When a game is largely focused on hack-and-slash, and the tug and battle between good and evil, then clear demarcation lines become not only valuable, but sometimes necessary to keep the flow of action and story clean and crisp.

In a world where the hosts of good and evil fight it out in person, and through mortal champions, those caught in between the two poles and aligned with neither bear a classification of their own: "neutral" serves this role handily, while I think the authors of the game take too much effort to try to carve out an idea of "neutral" philosophy, the alignments themselves serve a crucial and necessary purpose.

Where this begins to break down is when campaigns move away from the black-and-white, away from the over-arching story of good and evil and into territory where personal belief, susceptibility, and to where the very real line between belief and conviction is tested.Â The DnD alignments are, in a sense, a sort of "loyalty", and cannot fill out in any great detail the actual philosophy of those who bear them.Â In one sense you can always expand upon a character's beliefs and driving philosophy, but almost inevitably this will introduce complexity that belies the nine traditional alignments and make it difficult to pin a character to one, as must be done for game mechanic purposes.

Because of that tension, and the incompleteness of these alignments, I generally prefer free-form alignment.Â Character's actions and decisions will have their ramifications, in most campaigns doing bad things tends to have a way of coming back on those who do them, without need of an alignment system.Â It also pulls the internal conflict for those characters who feel the very real tug between doing what's best for themselves, and doing what they believe to be the right thing into the forefront much more effectively.Â While a paladin who feels a pull toward vigilantism, or ending a potential future threat before it can become more powerful, or even the very human pull of forbidden lust, and this can provide excellent drama as a result, it often feels pinched by game-mechanic effects that the strict alignment system carries with it, while a free-form alignment system both makes the transgressions more likely to be committed, and their eventual ramifications more subtle (and potentially more interesting).

In the end, though, there really is nothing in any alignment system that cannot be dealt with by good GMs, and good players.Â No matter how strict, no matter how free, no matter how important or trivial, those who craft their characters and make their decisions, and those who control the world in which the character exists, can mold their stories how they wish, massaging mechanics if and when necessary.Â In that sense, every alignment system is just as flexible as it needs to be.Â (Which, in the end, may make my entire post rather uninteresting Smile

)

Roswyn · **07-21-2014, 10:08 PM**

(07-21-2014, 03:28 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: My favorite alignment system (and my favorite RPG) is the one in Shadowrun. That is to say, there isn't one. All characters are various flavors of criminals, and no rules hinge upon your morality. You just do whatever you think your character would do in a situation.

There are however two stats which are used to track it somewhat. Street Cred is essentially your character's reputation. This can come from a number of sources, but it generally means your character is reliable, trustworthy, will help you out in a pinch, won't snitch, etc etc. It is gained through play, and can be used in various etiquette type rolls, or to convince people of things, but it can also be negative, as it makes it harder to have your character walk around the world unnoticed. Saving an orphanage might be good morals, and good street cred, but it makes it that much more likely your character will be noticed by someone you'd rather not be noticed by.

The other statistic, is notoriety, which is how brutal, destructive, criminal, evil, or just plain ruthless your character is. For example you might gain notoriety by killing someone who doesn't pay up after a job, or killing hostages in order to help escape from a botched raid. It can be used to help with intimidation attempts as well, as people will be scared shitless of what will happen to them. Like Street Cred it also makes your character more recognizable.

The thing I like about this system is that it's organic to the gameplay experience, everyone starts off as a mostly rookie shadowrunner. It also helps with the problem in some RPGs where a character might be a murder-machine, but have bad social stats, and thus can never intimidate and scare anyone. In Shadowrun, after a while, just the whisper of your characters name might have the Guards drop their guns and surrender, and the employee's not even consider hitting the alarm button.

It only really works well within the context of the game though. Though it could be adapted I suppose.

....Off topic but I am totally down for some 4th ed on skype or something lol.

Kage · **07-21-2014, 10:17 PM**

(07-21-2014, 10:08 PM)Roswyn Wrote:
(07-21-2014, 03:28 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: My favorite alignment system (and my favorite RPG) is the one in Shadowrun. That is to say, there isn't one. All characters are various flavors of criminals, and no rules hinge upon your morality. You just do whatever you think your character would do in a situation.

There are however two stats which are used to track it somewhat. Street Cred is essentially your character's reputation. This can come from a number of sources, but it generally means your character is reliable, trustworthy, will help you out in a pinch, won't snitch, etc etc. It is gained through play, and can be used in various etiquette type rolls, or to convince people of things, but it can also be negative, as it makes it harder to have your character walk around the world unnoticed. Saving an orphanage might be good morals, and good street cred, but it makes it that much more likely your character will be noticed by someone you'd rather not be noticed by.

The other statistic, is notoriety, which is how brutal, destructive, criminal, evil, or just plain ruthless your character is. For example you might gain notoriety by killing someone who doesn't pay up after a job, or killing hostages in order to help escape from a botched raid. It can be used to help with intimidation attempts as well, as people will be scared shitless of what will happen to them. Like Street Cred it also makes your character more recognizable.

The thing I like about this system is that it's organic to the gameplay experience, everyone starts off as a mostly rookie shadowrunner. It also helps with the problem in some RPGs where a character might be a murder-machine, but have bad social stats, and thus can never intimidate and scare anyone. In Shadowrun, after a while, just the whisper of your characters name might have the Guards drop their guns and surrender, and the employee's not even consider hitting the alarm button.

It only really works well within the context of the game though. Though it could be adapted I suppose.

....Off topic but I am totally down for some 4th ed on skype or something lol.

More offtopic but i bought the 5th? ed book cause Nat told me about it and I want a game ; ;

LiadansWhisper · **07-22-2014, 01:19 AM**

(07-21-2014, 08:43 PM)Aya Wrote: In more seriousness...

The demands on an alignment system really depend upon the setting, and the intent of the campaign being played (which are shaped but not pre-determined by the game and setting themselves).

I have been critical of the DnD Alignment system in a few posts, but in reality I think their alignment system fits the typical play of the game very well (and the simplified version of 4th Edition, fits it just as well too).Â When a game is largely focused on hack-and-slash, and the tug and battle between good and evil, then clear demarcation lines become not only valuable, but sometimes necessary to keep the flow of action and story clean and crisp.

In a world where the hosts of good and evil fight it out in person, and through mortal champions, those caught in between the two poles and aligned with neither bear a classification of their own: "neutral" serves this role handily, while I think the authors of the game take too much effort to try to carve out an idea of "neutral" philosophy, the alignments themselves serve a crucial and necessary purpose.

Where this begins to break down is when campaigns move away from the black-and-white, away from the over-arching story of good and evil and into territory where personal belief, susceptibility, and to where the very real line between belief and conviction is tested.Â The DnD alignments are, in a sense, a sort of "loyalty", and cannot fill out in any great detail the actual philosophy of those who bear them.Â In one sense you can always expand upon a character's beliefs and driving philosophy, but almost inevitably this will introduce complexity that belies the nine traditional alignments and make it difficult to pin a character to one, as must be done for game mechanic purposes.

Because of that tension, and the incompleteness of these alignments, I generally prefer free-form alignment.Â Character's actions and decisions will have their ramifications, in most campaigns doing bad things tends to have a way of coming back on those who do them, without need of an alignment system.Â It also pulls the internal conflict for those characters who feel the very real tug between doing what's best for themselves, and doing what they believe to be the right thing into the forefront much more effectively.Â While a paladin who feels a pull toward vigilantism, or ending a potential future threat before it can become more powerful, or even the very human pull of forbidden lust, and this can provide excellent drama as a result, it often feels pinched by game-mechanic effects that the strict alignment system carries with it, while a free-form alignment system both makes the transgressions more likely to be committed, and their eventual ramifications more subtle (and potentially more interesting).

In the end, though, there really is nothing in any alignment system that cannot be dealt with by good GMs, and good players.Â No matter how strict, no matter how free, no matter how important or trivial, those who craft their characters and make their decisions, and those who control the world in which the character exists, can mold their stories how they wish, massaging mechanics if and when necessary.Â In that sense, every alignment system is just as flexible as it needs to be.Â (Which, in the end, may make my entire post rather uninteresting )

You really need to keep in mind that every alignment system - regardless of the system you are looking at - is created with the idea in mind that the GM/DM/Storyteller will be making the ultimate call as to whether something causes an alignment shift. Â As such, there has to be wiggle room and things left undefined, because every GM is different.

I find that the more expanded information on D&D alignments actually provides a really nice framework within which I can build a character's story. Â Sometimes having absolutes isn't a bad thing. Â Sometimes it can make for a more interesting story. Â Smile

Cato · **07-22-2014, 02:27 AM**

Role-play ceases to be enjoyable for me when it comes to the point where every little thing is micro-managed and planned out in advance. I'm very much a fan of morally grey characters who seek to do the right thing despite having made some questionable decisions during their lives.

I don't feel as though I need to rely upon an alignment system to accomplish that, though.

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Alignment Systems in RP

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes