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Ashianna · **02-08-2015, 06:31 AM**

Hey there! A friend and I decided to give a couple of seekers a try. Admittedly, I have played a Keeper in the past, but not a Seeker. This site has definitely been very helpful in learning what little bits of lore the devs have given us as well as the general consensus of how the RP community feels about Seekers. As we flesh out more of our story though, a couple questions popped into my head that I was unsure on the answers.

First of all, our characters are part of the Wolf Tribe. We were curious to find out if there were any other wolf tribe rpers out there Smile

Secondly, I know there are many that have their miqo'te either not part of a tribe or having moved on to adventuring. I like the tribal (Seekers) and family (Keepers) aspect of the miqo'te and so I have been working with my friend to flesh out our background possibly involving their tribe. He has decided to play a nuhn. One question that arose when reading through some of the lore, is a nuhn's only job to be a breeding male? I would assume that he helps to support the tribe as well, but my friend wondered how being a nuhn would effect being an adventurer. His thoughts were that the nuhn would need to stay with the tribe, considering his role within said tribe. We had the thought of having it a be a large enough tribe that their are possibly two nuhns, which I have read is possible. Perhaps having two nuhns makes it easier for one to go off and do some adventuring? How do those that go with the tribal rp go about explaining their absent from the tribe?

As for myself, I was curious about when a Tia challenges a Nuhn. I have read that if a Nuhn is defeated, if he survives, he becomes a Tia while the other becomes Nuhn. Is it common for one to perish in these challenges? While W'aisha's father was a Nuhn at the time she was born, I didn't figure that he would still be one at this point. I didn't want to kill him off in the Calamity either. Would her father still being alive and being a Tia make sense?

Lastly, as far as romances go, I know that the Keepers are more often likely to form attachments. I don't assume that it is impossible for a Seeker to form similar attachments, but how would they handle such? Mating seems like it would be out of the question unless the Tia decided to venture out on his own and form his own tribe, but from what I have read, that isn't a terribly easy prospect. How do Seekers handle romance?

I know it may seem that I am focusing on a certain part of the Seeker culture that has at times sparked a heated discussion, but it isn't my only focus. I have read a lot of what has been discussed on the forums here and know there is so much more to them. These are just the only areas that I really have any confusions with.

Chris Ganale · **02-08-2015, 06:51 AM**

Let's keep in mind that I have one Seeker and from all the various lore discussions I've read, my take on Seeker lore is a pale mockery of the accepted interpretations.

I have always considered breeding male to be the sole job of the nunh, because if you look at Forgotten Springs, that guy just sits around and doles out quests all day and lets his two tias do all the work of the day-to-day running of the tribe. But this doesn't seem to be the commonly-accepted interpretation and I will admit that my view on this is rather one-dimensional. I would not think that being a nunh would allow the flexibility to be an adventurer at all. A tribe being big enough for multiple nunhs just means that the breeding females are divvied up between the two (or more) nunhs, not that they can treat the nunh job like shift work.

As for the nature of challenges, I have always assumed that they're not intended to be mortal in nature. But I've skimmed several dozen male Seeker pages whose histories mentioned having partaken of or witnessed a to-the-death challenge. So to me, it makes perfect sense if your character's father is still kicking around as a tia.

I'm not at all qualified to answer the question of Seeker romance because my one Seeker is an extreme anomaly in that he's had a romantic idealism from his childhood, and therefore didn't view things in the traditional tribal nature.

Virella · **02-08-2015, 08:25 AM**

Personally I've always thought Nunh males are too precious for a tribe to let them go off adventuring. After all the Nunh has challenged the previous one to become the breeding male, and I doubt they never get 'promoted' to Nunh out of the blue.
Not to mention I expect Nunh males take their duty very seriously and wouldn't have a sudden wanderlust due to this.
I can't imagine the females wanting to have an adventuring Nunh. He would have less time to breed, if not putting his tribe in unnecessary danger due to his adventuring. After all, they do want that breeding male around to ensure the tribe's future!

It is all a simple matter of taking your character's ideas in mind. If they ended up being a Nunh, they would had wanted to be such, and accepting the perks and disadvantages of being one.Â

Tia's on the other hand seem perfectly capable of going out on their own, although I'd still imagine Miqo'te are very tight-knitted with their community by default anyhow!

Naunet · **02-08-2015, 11:48 AM**

Aaah, your last question has been the subject of much sociological discussion amongst my own little Seeker tribe group! Smile

Â It's actually a pretty interesting thing to think about, as surely the Seeker culture would lead to some subtle or significant differences in their worldviews.

I think there are many ways to take it, something that could probably be said for almost everything related to Seekers. Each tribe is going to have their own unique twists on how to handle things. It is possible that with the role of the Nunh being what it is, relations between him and the women of the tribe may be more contractual. He has his duty, and the women understand and respect that duty. One could treat it a bit like marriages back in old Europe used to be - of a business nature, rather than a feeling one. It's a role the tribe respects, and a role the NunhÂ respects. That latter part is an important distinction to me, as I think our tendency is to look at a the Nunh as "the guy who gets all the ladies", when it's entirely possible that the Seeker's cultural perspective does not allow for such a selfish idea. Sure, maybe there's a few Nunh's like that, but it's more likely that the role of Nunh is seen as a duty, rather than an opportunity to chase tail.

However, consider that the Nunh may also need the support and approval of the women in order to be successful at his duty. Also, Seekers are social, human-like people that clearly have emotion and develop emotional connections. Therefor, it's also an equally valid interpretation to approach the Nunh-tribe relationship as much more personal. Perhaps the Nunh needs to win over the women before he can truly succeed at Nunhship. Perhaps inevitably, the Nunh will have favorite(s), or perhaps he won't. Perhaps his desire for the Nunh title was born out of a desire to be with a certain member of the tribe. Perhaps this might cause strife amongst the tribe, if he is not as equally attentive to his duties. I think that level of detail is really up to the interpretation of the roleplayer and how their own character would respond to the role.

I have a character who used to be the Nunh, up until the point he died at Carteneau at least. In the Hipparion Tribe that we roleplay, his role in the tribe was not really one of social or political leadership but of fatherhood. Not only was he responsible for ensuring future generations were born, but he was also responsible for the careÂ of said future generations. Who looks after the kids when the women are out hunting? The Nunh. Who's the one interacting with and teaching the kids moral and social lessons when they're too young to go on hunting trips? The Nunh. It's not that the women are inattentive, but they certainly have many, very important responsibilities. The Nunh's greatest responsibility is towards his kids.

That's just how I played it, though. Smile

Rosamund · **02-08-2015, 12:34 PM**

(02-08-2015, 11:48 AM)Naunet Wrote: The Nunh's greatest responsibility is towards his kids.

I don't have any answers to the original questions as I've wondered the same myself, but I wanted to say that's a lovely interpretation you have there. Although I'm still learning about Seeker lore, I was leaning towards something like this for Inarah's sire. The U tribe women at least do seem to spend most of their time hunting so I think it would make sense.

Myxie Tryxle · **02-08-2015, 01:04 PM**

While I'm playing a Keeper and not a Seeker, I have encouraged extensive discussion on these topics, particularly when the game was re-releasing and lots of folks were trying to figure these questions out. Links to previous discussions on the subjects:

Breeding Behaviors

I had one about Sun Seekers and their nunh challenges but I either can't find it or it was deleted for being too speculative. Suggesting that the 96% of Seeker tribes we don't see might behave differently from the 4% we do see rubbed some folks the wrong way in a strict-adherence-to-lore sense.

That said, given that we only really get lore about one Seeker tribe, I say you're free to expand in whatever direction makes good sense and encourages good roleplay. Given that humanity spawned tribes as different as the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Aztecs, Incas, Japanese, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, republics, empires, kingdoms, democracies, etc. I find it impossible to think that every Seeker tribe has the same customs and cultures as the one we see in game. Similar maybe, but there's plenty of room for improvisation, especially when each tribe reveres a different totem animal (Edit: They may also revere different members of the Twelve, leading to different cultural values). Given that you're playing wolf tribe, you could draw from documentaries on wolves, with their pack structure and only the alpha male and female allowed to breed. That would of course lead to a small, tight knit tribe, or perhaps a network of packs and more nunhs than your average Seeker tribe, making it easier for tias to become nunhs.

From previous discussions, I feel the best way to get a handle on how the tribe structure would work is to watch documentaries on animal species with harem structures. If you look at lions (in particular as they are cats), gorillas, and elephant seals, the dominant males tend to breed only when females come to them and present receptivity. Between protecting their claim, patrolling their territory, finding food, and sleeping, they don't have an abundance of free time for chasing tail, nor any need to do so. It's a foregone conclusion that it will happen when the female is receptive. The notion of a nunh as a run-around playboy chasing tail to me is completely false, the knee-jerk reaction of how a human would behave given sudden supposed sexual liberty, not how a member of a species with the Miqo'te's biological heritage would view it. The nunh's got way too much at stake not to be diligently guarding his claim. To me at least, the idea of an adventuring nunh makes no sense at all. If he's away from the tribe, someone else is going to take advantage of that situation to usurp his position, either covertly or directly. (Of course if you're going with the pack structure I suggested, if the nunh could convince a small pack to all take up adventuring, that's one possibility. He maintains his position and authority by leading his pack on adventures.)

That said, if you want to play Seekers that deviate significantly from the cultural norm of their own tribe, do it! Should lead to some interesting conflict, and conflict is the heart of a good story. Just flesh out how your characters are different from the cultural norm of thier tribe and why, and try to find RPers who understand the conflict from a Miqo'te perspective rather than a human one.

Ashianna · **02-08-2015, 02:07 PM**

Thank you so much for the replies! I very much agree that the "the Nunh gets all the women" mentality is a bad one. We certainly don't look at it that way. When we decided on miqo'te and the Wolf tribe it was because we both have a great respect for animals and wolves is one of our favorites. To me, the tribal mentality of the Seekers and Keepers reminded me a great deal of prides and packs and I have the feeling when we get around to defining our little tribe we might pull a bit from those ideals.Â

(02-08-2015, 06:51 AM)Chris Ganale Wrote: As for the nature of challenges, I have always assumed that they're not intended to be mortal in nature. But I've skimmed several dozen male Seeker pages whose histories mentioned having partaken of or witnessed a to-the-death challenge. So to me, it makes perfect sense if your character's father is still kicking around as a tia.

I'm glad to here this. I have played characters in the past that had parents that were no longer living, dying in some tragic way. I do realize the Calamity definitely sets us up for such, but I didn't want the focus to be on lost parents or some other tragedy. Besides, having living family ties in ones background makes for interesting rp later onÂ Cool

As far as the subject of Nuhns, I believe part of the reason he picked a Nuhn character is he was under the assumption that only the Nuhn's were allowed to have any kind of involvement, romantically or otherwise, with the females of the tribe. I hope I wouldn't be too far out of line to say that it is possible for a Nuhn to become attracted to someone specific, but they would still have to continue their duties to the tribe. As far as Tia's go, is it possible for them to also find such attractions? From my reading of the above linked thread as well as others, am I right to understand that there might be feelings between Tia's and another female, just as long as there are no children that come of it? We wanted our characters to have some kind of connection, what that is yet we are still figuring out. Hopefully some of these questions will help us to come up with some kind of meaningful connection between the two.

On to the subject of adventurer and a nuhn, I very much agree with what all of you have said. It makes sense that the nuhn would need to stay with the tribe. I have seen that their are some nuhn rpers and I am curious how they handle such. Does the adventuring side not come into play in their rp or are these nuhns that have moved on from their tribe to an adventuring life? I would think that doing such would brand them an outcast or make them a tia as they have been defeated or replaced. Tia's certainly seem to have more freedom!Â

I will continue to read up on anything I can fine and I do thank you all for your responses so far! I look forward to our continued discussion. Smile

K'nahli · **02-08-2015, 02:25 PM**

I agree with a lot of what everyone has said here. To me, the title of nunh is one of duty, honour and respect. He has proven himself to be the strongest(male at least) warrior in the tribe and as such, has the privilege of passing on his own lineage to the next generation. The idea of a nunh suddenly getting up and adventuring doesn't strike me as normal. Given that I'm sure nunh's would require a certain level of maturity and respect alongside their physical strength in order to have even been perceived as "worthy" of attaining the title, I can't imagine that one would just walk out on his tribe for selfish reasons without relinquishing his title at the very least.

Nunh's revert back to tias if they are bested in combat which shows it's not some medal pinned to their chest for having at least claimed the title at some point. It serves to represent who you are in the tribe, what your duty is.... still is.

Even if someone left their tribe for their own benefit, if it was going to be for a significant amount of time or to come with the risk of never returning, then I imagine a substitute would be appointed in the meantime.

On the note of challenges, in our(Hipparion) tribe, contests are not intended to be mortal. Frankly, that seems counter productive to it's intent, no matter how barbaric a tribe in particular may be.

As for romance, I don't see why sunseeker's can't fall in love. Just because role role of nunh requires impregnating more than one female, it doesn't necessarily mean that the are polyamorous by nature - but that is debatable. Granted that females and nunh alike need to come to terms with the fact that there is no such thing as entirely "faithful" relationships when compared against our modern perceptions of such, but I certainly would not come close to taking anything of the sort for granted.

Myxie Tryxle · **02-08-2015, 02:42 PM**

One thing I suggested in the post that seems to have disappeared is that challenges, depending on the tribe, wouldn't necessarily have to be gladiatorial combat. For example, if the tribe were based on Vipers, their challenges might not be obvious at all, instead involving very Machiavellian cloak and dagger types of scheming that culminate in one or the other being assassinated.

In the case of wolves, personal combat prowess may take a back seat to leadership ability. Their challenge could involve the nunh and the challenger each choosing a pack of four hunters, and whoever brings down the biggest, fastest, or most dangerous prey wins. Maybe they die taking on a behemoth to prove their worth. Maybe they lose their position because they just couldn't inspire the teamwork necessary to coordinate their hunters.

Depends on how much you demand lore adherence though. Given how lackluster and non-comprehensive the lore about Seekers is, I'd have no issue with someone improvising a little. In my mind just looking at the tribe in the questline is kinda like picking one town, city, or village out of the entire Earth and saying 'all humans are like this.'

K'nahli · **02-08-2015, 02:49 PM**

(02-08-2015, 02:07 PM)W Wrote: As far as the subject of Nuhns, I believe part of the reason he picked a Nuhn character is he was under the assumption that only the Nuhn's were allowed to have any kind of involvement, romantically or otherwise, with the females of the tribe. I hope I wouldn't be too far out of line to say that it is possible for a Nuhn to become attracted to someone specific, but they would still have to continue their duties to the tribe. As far as Tia's go, is it possible for them to also find such attractions? From my reading of the above linked thread as well as others, am I right to understand that there might be feelings between Tia's and another female, just as long as there are no children that come of it? We wanted our characters to have some kind of connection, what that is yet we are still figuring out. Hopefully some of these questions will help us to come up with some kind of meaningful connection between the two.

This depends on your tribe I think. For our tribe, it's more or less forbidden to have physical, romantic contact if you are a tia, mostly out of the concern that it elevates to a point where conception is a possibility/risk.

But otherwise of course they can be attracted to others. They don't suddenly become sentient when they becomes nunhs, haha ^^

(02-08-2015, 02:07 PM)W Wrote: On to the subject of adventurer and a nuhn, I very much agree with what all of you have said. It makes sense that the nuhn would need to stay with the tribe. I have seen that their are some nuhn rpers and I am curious how they handle such. Does the adventuring side not come into play in their rp or are these nuhns that have moved on from their tribe to an adventuring life? I would think that doing such would brand them an outcast or make them a tia as they have been defeated or replaced. Tia's certainly seem to have more freedom!Â

I will continue to read up on anything I can fine and I do thank you all for your responses so far! I look forward to our continued discussion.

I believe that's people simply having different perceptions. Some might think it's fine to assume that they can still be nunh, others might think that - since they were nuhn when they left the tribe - they still keep the name.... others, again, might simply be used to/prefer the sound of it as opposed to going back to tia.

Also there was this one person recently who made a nunh character before becoming completely familiar with the lore but he didn't want to pay for a name change so he made something up to justify it.

Chris Ganale · **02-08-2015, 05:00 PM**

It's just my very-removed observation on the matter, but all the people who I've seen running around Ul'dah with nunh in their name either weren't aware of the significance when they created the character and haven't bothered to name-change, or are completely independent and use it under the "I do what I want" mindset. I've only ever heard of one city-based nunh who actually still is one, but I haven't actually seen the guy.

I mean, when Tahz peaced out from his tribe he could very well have taken the nunh title to boost his image, but not only is that indicative of an arrogance that he completely lacks, he had, by that point, failed fifteen challenges and was completely done with having to put up with that stuff, and just arbitrarily taking the name in the ill-conceived hope that it might give him a better chance to get with a city cat would have basically invalidated all the hardship he'd lived through. He still keeps the tia because he A) is too lazy to come up with an actual last name and B) is too accustomed to having it attached to his name to the point he basically feels that it is his last name.

C'kayah Polaali · **02-08-2015, 05:26 PM**

I fall pretty strictly into the "You're a Nunh? What are you doing out adventuring?" camp, too.

I've always imagined that the role of Nunh was basically to be breeding male, as well as providing care for the kids and acting as a good example to them. That's something that's often overlooked in the "most fit to pass on their legacy" issue with Nunhs, but the lore really states that Nunhs are Nunhs because the tribe is interested in producing the strongest kids. That's got a heavy implication that this is not just about genetics, but about who can produce the best Wolfs (or Coeurls, or Vipers, or what have you). Staying at home to take care of your responsibilities always seemed to be the major part of this.

I know you're playing a Wolf, but Fates Skein wrote a fabulous guide for Coeurs roleplayers that includes a bunch about how Nunhs are chosen, what they do, and what the responsibilities of everyone else in the tribe are. I used this heavily when I created C'kayah (who's not a tribal Seeker, in the sense that he left to adventure, but he is heavily informed by his tribal upbringing). Even if you don't take anything directly from it, I'm sure it would be a great resource simply for the questions it prompts in your mind.

K'nahli · **02-08-2015, 08:02 PM**

(02-08-2015, 05:26 PM)C Wrote: but the lore really states that Nunhs are Nunhs because the tribe is interested in producing the strongest kids. That's got a heavy implication that this is not just about genetics, but about who can produce the best Wolfs (or Coeurls, or Vipers, or what have you). Staying at home to take care of your responsibilities always seemed to be the major part of this.

I think attitude would have a lot to do with it as well. I can't imagine that any sensible tribeswoman would honestly agree into coupling with a nunh whom was hot-headed, arrogant and childish if such a person even made it to that position.

They're simply not respectable traits, even if one is rather strong.

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Kinono · **02-08-2015, 10:37 PM**

Re: Why are Nunhs out adventuring.

Pretty sure if a Tia leaves their tribe specifically under the guise of forming a new tribe, and they have a couple people with them, that's enough to call themselves a Nunh. Perhaps they are looking for a place to settle down.

The strict A-Z tribes are implied to not be the only tribes to exist, just the strongest.

Aa'____ Ab'____ Ac'_____ and so on for every combination are free to be created.

Ashianna · **02-08-2015, 11:22 PM**

I had often thought it was a rarity to see a seeker or keeper rper still be a part of their clan or tribe. While there are the exceptions, like the Hipparion's, I can now see why most miqo'te have gone off on their own to adventure. Being a nuhn or even a tia does make things a bit more restricted. I wonder if a male keeper has a bit more freedom as far as adventuring and making a name for themselves go.

He wants more of an adventurer/mercenary character and I was interested in the tribal aspect of the race. I do believe we can meet in the middle, making their background full of tribal lore, but they are now a pair adventuring together, making their own way in life. Best of both worlds. Hopefully it doesn't sound too cliche.Â Blush

Â Something to think about at least! You all have definitely given us food for thought. Smile

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