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Warren Castille · **03-09-2015, 08:03 AM**

So the topic of the dreaded E word came up in the fairly-excellent Bleed thread and I figured this might be a conversation also worth having. I'm aware it's a particularly prickly word so I'd like to request that we try to remain civil with one another.

Specifically, I was noticing how "escapism" came up. Lots of people had lots of differing opinions on what the word meant; Is it negative, as by definition? Has language changed over time, and it can now be used in a positive or neutral definition? It's with these questions in mind that I'd like to try and define "Elitism." I wasn't sure whether to put it in the RP or FFXIV section because I'd like to discuss both, but feel free to concentrate on one or the other.

For my part, I think Elitism in roleplay is the expectation that something about your character makes your storytelling inherently superior to those around you. Maybe you're just a stickler for lore and look down your nose at anyone playing a tribal miqo'te with an "uncivilized" accent. Maybe you believe all Sultansworn are banished to the palace. Maybe you believe that only certain races can claim to be from certain nations. Maybe you believe that playing a mundane character makes you better than those playing Crystal-touched Warriors of Light. Regardless of the sticking point, you believe that your rightness makes you somehow higher quality than those around you.

Elitism in gameplay is a bit trickier. When I play in roulettes or something, I expect the members of my team to know at least what their class is capable of. I don't mind if you've never seen the dungeon before, I don't mind if you don't know the mechanics before queueing for a trial. It drives me insane to see people who don't know what they're doing, though. Doton being dropped on bosses. Huton not being cast. Heavy Thrust missing. Paladins missing oaths, monks missing fists. I don't expect everyone to push the limits of their job. Inability to perform due to lacking insight to a particular encounter is fine; Inability to perform because of a lack of prowess or familiarity with the class is something I've never been able to tolerate. In that sense, I am definitely an elitist.

So with that in the open, let's get this thread locked in record time.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-09-2015, 08:17 AM**

Since I'm still somewhat new to MMO gaming, I'm not sure if what I've gleaned from the word 'elitist' is accurate. It speaks to me of a person who is knowledgeable, intuitive, skilled and well equipped (good PC/console/thing, as well as a good internet connection perhaps) but yet expects everyone else to operate at the same level regardless of their circumstances, talent or experience. When this expectation is not met, they either try to help others get there (to the best of both their and the other person's abilities) or mock/dismiss them for not being good enough.Â

There's both negative and positive in there, so when I read someone calling another an elitist, I try to take note of the context and the tone of the rest of what is being said.Â

Perhaps it is ignorance or obstinate contempt, but I find the very idea of a 'roleplay elitist' laughable to a pain in my sides. There are roleplayers who I deem good, and those I deem...not so good, but I could never look at a roleplayer and SERIOUSLY call them...elite. Nope!Â

Those who designate themselves as such make me laugh even harder -- seriously, it cracks me up to tears.

Enteris · **03-09-2015, 08:18 AM**

Reporting the thread.

On topic...

In terms of elitism in roleplay, I question if the definition really has to include thinking yourself better than another. For example, in my own roleplay, there are certain things I expect out of those around me (sticking to the lore in general, no god moding, etc.) that if they don't exhibit in their roleplay, I get discouraged and discontinue my roleplay with them. For those roleplayers out there that go way out in left field (Harry Potter in Eorzea, daughter of the Sultana, or even just bending the lore a biiiiit too much) I tend to stay away from them as best I can... not because I think my roleplay or roleplaying ability is better than theirs, but simply the styles and desires are different and wouldn't mesh. Were I in to Harry Potter or any of the other listed things, I would roleplay with said players and they could very well be stellar roleplayers.

My PvE views align greatly with yours. I'd have to agree pretty much through out with what you said.

Kage · **03-09-2015, 08:21 AM**

(03-09-2015, 08:03 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Elitism in gameplay... Heavy Thrust missing. Inability to perform because of a lack of prowess or familiarity with the class is something I've never been able to tolerate. In that sense, I am definitely an elitist.

Hear hear!

Though... Heavy Thrust doesn't miss anymore~ it just doesn't get a buff now if you don't get the flank. So if you want more DPS, tanks, please still give Dragoons space for positionals!

Also, seriously people need to stop thinking Foe's Requiem lowers Bard DPS or that you can do 1000 dps. *nod*

It's interesting now how people now require you to link the weapons or drops in X turn (*cough*T9*cough*) if you are in a Farm T9. Granted, there's a reason why. When that soldiery message pops up, no one heard of anyone being on an ALT or being in last phase... you expect everyone there to have had a drop/the achievement because you are in a Farm party.

Not to say that this guarantees you know it. But it at least separates you from having never seen the end of the fight people.

Steel Wolf · **03-09-2015, 08:26 AM**

So I've actually seen, like, over the course of my many Roulettes, other Warriors ticking off Infuriate before throwing their Tomahawk...at which point the rest of the rotation is lost to me since I have to focus on what the hell I'm doing...but I do often wonder...am I doing this thing wrong? Am I a bad because I don't Infuriate before the next engagement?

I mean, I do Infuriate when I'm about to face a large mob if I haven't built up Wrath so I can Steel Cyclone all the things, but on a single target? Wut?

People want to RP wif meh. I love that feeling. It's like being hugged. But then when I wanna RP people are off doing other stuff. Unrelated, right? But then I wonder if the day before the RP we had was just bad or uninteresting. I mean, it was a conversation, right? Nothing major to come outta that...but am I a bad because this player doesn't wanna see me again?

What about the myriad names on my friend list? Folks whom I saved in hopes of having another experience like the first meeting...who I never hear from again. Am I bad? Or just shy?

Elitism is a wriggly thing to parse, because it becomes this spectre in the mind of what-ifs and maybes...at least speaking from my point of view. Is it all perceptual? And whose perception do you trust? Or can we truly just say "Fuggit" and poke people or move on going at single targets without turning on Infuriate?

Personally, if I'm not being offered advice (which is different from a "hilarious" "git gud" macro or an Alliance claiming carrying another), I assume I'm operating optimally enough, and perhaps other folks are just too damn busy with their own stories or own FCs or Linkshells to poke a Wolf sitting in their friend list.

Ultimately, you just gotta be you. :3

Warren Castille · **03-09-2015, 08:30 AM**

Hm. I've been thinking of the word as derogatory for so long that it's just automatically assigned the negative connotation for me! I wouldn't think of someone in great gear who goes over strategies and helps people out as "elite" in the same sense - I think someone can be a good player without needing the shinies to back it up, and I think that having shinies doesn't equate you with being good either. Interesting to read Berrod's take on it.

@Enteris - I also don't think that coming to terms with different RP philosophies (something I try to reference as much as possible when talking about RP) is the same as being "elitist" either. You mentioned people roleplaying Harry Potter in Eorzea: For you and your personal philosophy, it doesn't mesh so you avoid it. My Strawman Elitist would be the sort to start a fight in /shout while telling them how dumb and awful they are.

@Kage - I didn't mean missing due to accuracy, I meant Heavy Thrust not being a part of a rotation at all. The bane of 1-2-3 dragoons is something that makes my eye twitch. Same thing for black mages spamming ice magic.

I do think item linking and achievement linking has a specific sort of place; When people were doing weekly Extreme farms for the weapons it was handy to know who knew what the fuck, especially since soldiery bonuses didn't exist yet. The wheels come off the wagon, though, when your PF says "Please know past Heavensfall" but you want proof of victory on top of it.

Gegenji · **03-09-2015, 08:36 AM**

(03-09-2015, 08:03 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Doton being dropped on bosses.

Fun fact, I do (did?) this. I don't know if it falls under the purview of the others, though. Forgetting Oath and Defiance, for example, are main staples of the class - if you're tanking, you're going to want them on because they're more or less required to maintain enmity over your DPS unless you're running full STR gear or something. Your basic combat rotation comes next in the line, mostly because it's usually just a 1-2-3 deal barring a couple unique exceptions and the next step usually lights up to further cement the "DO THIS" mindset.

Doton versus Raiton, however, is more of a DPS maximizing thing. And, truth be told, I was using Doton because I thought it was actually worth the extra DoT damage. Get Huton up pre-pull, Doton, then Kassatsu into Suiton->Trick Attack. Then I used Raiton if I wasn't refreshing Huton/Doton and Trick Attack was still on cooldown. That was my Ninjutsu rotation, rather than the apparent "proper" rotation of Huton, Suiton, Kassatsu->Raiton, then Raiton forever when not refreshing Huton/Suiton.

There's a distinction that, I think, needs to be made between knowing the basic mechanics of one's class and maximizing their DPS. Expecting the former is not Elitist, expecting the latter is. I had enough of folks demanding macros and "proper" rotations playing my Hunter in WoW to ensure I was doing world-ranking damage on raid bosses, I really don't need the same thing occurring in my daily roulette.

(That said, I'm totally dropping Doton out of my NIN rotation since it's one less thing to maintain in the double-rotation if it's not worth it over Raiton. Blush

)

Kage · **03-09-2015, 08:40 AM**

(03-09-2015, 08:30 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Hm. I've been thinking of the word as derogatory for so long that it's just automatically assigned the negative connotation for me! I wouldn't think of someone in great gear who goes over strategies and helps people out as "elite" in the same sense - I think someone can be a good player without needing the shinies to back it up, and I think that having shinies doesn't equate you with being good either. Interesting to read Berrod's take on it.
...

@Kage - I didn't mean missing due to accuracy, I meant Heavy Thrust not being a part of a rotation at all. The bane of 1-2-3 dragoons is something that makes my eye twitch.

Man sorry it's 5:30am in the morning and that idea completely whooshed over my mind until you said it. That is... quite stupid yep. Heavy Thrust needs 100% uptime.

To be honest, I've always seen the word 'elitism' or 'elitist' as one having a negative connotation. Usually people who start to take on the elitist title view their opinion as the 'best' or 'better' and believe others to have an inferior position. Thus, they also want to dominate everyone else with whatever particular idea they have. For example, in gameplay, the top 5% of BLM will do 600 DPS in endgame. Now all BLM must do 600 dps. (Random numbers out of my ass.)

Warren Castille · **03-09-2015, 08:43 AM**

I drop Doton on stuff all the time, but that's due to me being a scrub-tier ninja and forgetting my mudra orders. I had some useless mnemonic devices to help remember them (down/up for Katon, since I was blowing things up, up/down for Raiton because I was calling down lightning... Um... down/left/up for Huton, because... Tornado? Up/right/down for Doton because... uh... Rocks fall, everyone dies? Up/down/right/left for Suiton because... uh... NES button combo!)

The one that would blow my brain out of the back of my head most was Doton thrown in the center for Garuda sub-57%. You get maybe 3 ticks out of it. Then it's invuln during Aerial Blast, and you get maybe one more tick before she moves. JUST CAST RAITON.

***Alothia*** · **03-09-2015, 08:44 AM**

On Roleplay
I think that elitism is something very different from having standards. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with choosing to RP with certain people because you have a certain vision for storylines for your characters, a certain standard for grammar and spelling (which I tend to do because I'm an English teacher and I have to read enough poorly worded stuff on a daily basis that I don't need it in my free time), or a certain standard for writing in general.
Elitism happens when you feel the need to disparage other people because of them not choosing to adhere to the same standards as you. I've known people like that, and they make other people miserable. Look, you're allowed to like what you like. You're allowed to play with the people you want to play with. But if you make other people feel like shit because their choices aren't your choices, you're not 'elitist', you're an asshole.

On Content
Again, I have split feelings here. Sometimes, people are trying to relearn a role. For example, I hopped on my WHM the other night to heal Garuda EM. Thank the Twelve I was with my FC mates, because I had no clue what I was doing. If I had to put up with people in DF yelling at me because I'm trying to work something out that I hadn't touched since 1.0, I'd be really discouraged. I understand that some people do roulettes and whatnot thinking that it's going to be a quick run. But what about people who don't have static groups with which to run things? They've got to learn too. You telling people that they're doing their job wrong isn't helping anyone.Â
I agree that people should have some knowledge of what they're doing before they enter a dungeon. I've complained to my friends over skype about someone who doesn't seem to understand. But I also know that it takes a few seconds to help someone out in a nice way, versus leaving them to sit in a queue for another half an hour because you decided you wanted to bail.
I actually had this happen to me, because I wasn't using Flare in my AOE rotation when there were groups of 3. The tank quit on us, and didn't even try to explain in a nice way what I was doing wrong. Then, we sat there for another 30+ minutes because there were no other tanks.Â
I honestly think that taking a few extra seconds out of your time to be a nice person is a lot better than coming off as an 'elitist.' But then again, that's part of my problem I suppose. I'm much more of the camp that you should just be nice to people in general.

Melodia · **03-09-2015, 08:44 AM**

Regarding elitism in roleplay, I can say that it's there. It exists. And I am not speaking of those choices one makes in whether or not to rp with someone because they dislike their choices of rp (i.e. "they erp therefore won't rp with them") Those are choices. What I mean is, perhaps a group of folks rp and have a nice rhythm....a synchronous atmosphere. And along comes Joe Roe. His style may be rusty, maybe has a lot of mispellings or maybe he just feels like a loudmouth. My experience has shown that said group will find a way to move Joe Roe out of the rp as it's not "up to snuff". It may be a "polite" move to keep him out or may be the cold shoulder completely. The move is not elitest. It is the reasoning behind it that is.

Eltism in gameplay? "What do you mean you don't know what a sac pull is? GTFO noob!" "Oh come on tank if you can't pull more than that, you need to change jobs." "What do you mean you don't charge gil for helping friends with GC supply items? You're way too nice for an MMO....you really ought to consider going back to single player games before you get hurt by others." "I feel like if you aren't grinding out all of the content then you're wating your time in a game like this." "You haven't cleared Moogle EX and you're ilv 120? What the hell is wrong with you?"
These are all actual quotes issued to me at one point or another by strangers and alleged friends. Statements and actions related to PvE elements designed to make me feel as if I were inferior to them as players in one way or another. So yeah....it exists in my world for sure.

Gaspard · **03-09-2015, 08:57 AM**

Le wikipedia Wrote:ElitismÂ is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form anÂ eliteâ€”a select group of people with a certainÂ ancestry, intrinsicqualityÂ or worth, highÂ intellect,Â wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributesâ€”are those whose influence is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.[sup][1][/sup]

Going by that,

In roleplay:

Elitism in roleplay for me is when people more knowledgable on lore / that perceive themselves more knowledgeable actively try to enforce a certain standard of Roleplay Quality. Whether that is in adhering to lore, the quality of your posts, the quality of you portraying a character or how they rank/perceive your character. Elitism can take both good and bad shapes. There's nothing wrong with trying to keep a certain standard and helping others there (if they want said help).

It's good if you truly just try to help people with constructive criticism / feedback and a helping attitude. It becomes obnoxious if you convey a degree of entitlement and superiority to the degree that you believe yourself to be of a higher standard if, infact, you're really not up to snuff yourself. (Especially if it's rooted in arrogance).

In PVE

In PVE I can 'somewhat' understand it, as it's performance based and everyone should have an interest in not 'hampering' their teammates / players. That being said, nobody fell from the sky as a perfect player or with a great understanding of the games mechanics, and the ironic thing about PVE elitism is that you end up discouraging people that would like to 'hang', or get to that level, all the while you probably get chewed out by the 'true' elite, the guys that manage to tackle endgame content in 1-2 days flat.

In the end, both can be positive if they truly aim to up the ante on the whole playing field for everyone (given everyone wants to play at a higher 'field'), it becomes problematic if it's just another way of people taking out their aggression on others because 'Fuck off scrub you're wasting our time'.

allgivenover · **03-09-2015, 09:01 AM**

There's no metric to measure RP on a scale of good and bad, so it's not really possible to objectively call someone an elitist. It's just a term used to bash someone who is vocal about their own RP philosophy and as a result of that is indirectly critical of someone else's RP.

Here's several instances where I've been labeled one though, not all of them are experiences I had in XIV:

Having issue with a sudden retcon of character details that would have greatly changed how mine and others characters acted towards that character
Objecting to canonizing more extreme fetish in group roleplay (and the children that fetish produces)
Not wanting to include those whose RP is very "in the moment" and are unable to follow through in long term plot arcs in my own private plots
Being put-off by characters with super healing powers that are neither Conjury, White Magic, or Scholar magics that attempt to roll into a scene and make regular lore-based healers completely obsolete with little effort
Insisting that RP can be more than just escapism from a tortured life (this one isn't even related to discussion that happened here, surprisingly)
Being a raider out of characterÂ

These are just a few of the reasons I've been called elitist, it's really such a meaningless term when you apply it to RP.

Gaspard · **03-09-2015, 09:15 AM**

While there's no metric to measure RP, there are certain key-points / rules in roleplay that some people follow religiously, and therein use as ways to claim 'Elitism' or denounce someone as 'Elitist'.

Though I've seen it also abused actually. People who take any form of criticism as direct 'Elitism' because, no, you can't ride the last unicorn from middle-earth transposed into FFXIV, call it Pikachu and ram the all-spark into it's chest.

Cliodhna Eoghan · **03-09-2015, 09:17 AM**

i don't think i'll ever view myself as "elite" in either gameplay or rp...i know i do well enough but i don't get to the point where i think my stuff is better than others. far as gameplay goes; this is my first mmo and i'm always open to taking suggestions on how to improve my playstyle (such as rotations and the like).

as far as rp goes....i have been rping a looong time over a lot of different forms but i always feel there's someone out that there that's just a better writer or has a better story compared to mine. i try really hard not to be that self absorbed in my own character's story to try and turn any and all events/conversations until they're about my character. i just want to walk away from an rp session with a tell saying "thanks that was fun" and not bust up lore too hard on the way there....because there's gonna be some bending, if it's something too far out of my comfort zone, (either for lore breaking or other reasons i didn't mention regarding a character or story) i back up, but so far i thankfully haven't had to do that too many times.

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