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Zetchryn · **04-17-2015, 05:25 AM**

Well, seeing as how there's already a shitstorm going on, what's another?

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NSFW discussion
Tonight I was approached on the subject of ERP. No, not approached FOR ERP, but was being asked about it, legitimately. We had a nice long conversations about the limits in RP, what individual people are comfortable with, and ways to approach the topic. I write smut on commission, so either side of the argument doesn't bother me, and I'm confident enough in my sexuality that I can talk about sex, and various things relating to it, without getting embarrassed. That being said, I know that ERP is a sensitive topic for a lot of people, and many people skirt around adult topics completely, not realizing there are alternatives or good ways to get around it. Let's talk about this for a moment.

Adult themes in roleplay are fine. A'zireena is a semi-polyamorous bisexual Miqo'te, and I've never hidden that before. She is also open to sex with her partners. I OOCly am comfortable writing out the scene, but I always give options. The first and most obvious option, is to simply fade to black. "As A'zireena smiled at her lover, reaching out to caress their side, she purred softly in delight. Tonight was going to be fun." And End. That's it. They have sex, great, moving on.

The second option, which this individual thought was the only option if you got to an adult scene, is of course to write it out. Now, I often get asked, many times "Do you get off on this? Do you get aroused?" And my answer is almost always a firm 'no'. Â I do not engage in this manner in order to get off, I do this RP both for whatever development can be had in there, and so specifics can be established. But this is hardly the idea for everyone.

And the third option is to 'analyze' it. You sit down OOCly and talk about what happens in the bed. Were they rough? Were they not? Would they react if 'x' happens? Do they say anything? And then you take his information and move on after the scene.

Ultimately, however, if you are engaging in romantic/mature themes, communication with your RP partner is ESSENTIAL. Always find what level your partner is comfortable with, and work from their wishes too. But never engage is something you don't desire.

Thank you all for reading, have a wonderful time.

Sin · **04-17-2015, 05:49 AM**

I don't see how this could cause a shitstorm.

It shouldn't.

Some sound statements in your post. Hopefully it helps anyone curious about the methods of romance in roleplay but uncomfortable speaking on the subject.

***Maril*** · **04-17-2015, 05:54 AM**

Shitstorms may yet be avoided!Â

I quite like your post, it explains things as I also find they are and gives a helpful advice. I very much agree that communication is very important, and I don't think it can really be said enough. Just because something isn't done for the sake of affecting the persons behind the characters doesn't mean it can't get uncomfy and awkward. It's always better to talk with the other part(s..) in the situation than to suffer through something like that.

D'eshel · **04-17-2015, 06:14 AM**

This always boggled my mind and let me to believe that a good number of roleplayers are either hypocrites or just plain goofs.

On one hand, we have people like OP has mentioned in the beginning of her post - who treat ERP like they have witchcraft in medieval times. Sure, I get it, you don't really have to like it, but it -is- roleplay. Other people do it to further develop their characters and that's the only part that should concern you.

The hypocrism part is that most of the time, these people come up with the "mature theme in a not-M-rated-game" argument.

Now hold on just a minute.

If you're uncomfortable with sex, how come you're comfortable with people roleplaying out violence, alcohol, drugs, abuse or even torture? How the hell is torture ten times worse than sex in your eyes?

All I'm saying is, I never understood these kinds of people and the arguments they come up with are often just plain dumb. Oh and on a sidenote, let's not forget the people who actually ERP but side up with the people I described above just so they wouldn't lose "their street cred".

This is a really, really big problem that doesn't seem to be solved over these years. Roleplayers suffer from a lot more abuse and (in some cases) hate than from non-roleplayers. How the hell can anyone be okay with that? It's just roleplay, for crying out loud. All of you on that side, I think you should read the basics of roleplay and then rethink the matter.

^P.S: Of course I hope that we don't have these kind of people on RPC, it was just a general shoutout. ;s

Nebbs · **04-17-2015, 06:42 AM**

I thought it was a good take on things from the OP, I had not thought about that last one of OOC talking through the nature of what happened.

Generally I would say on any none mainstream RP type scene, ask what the others are comfortable with .. and also importantly say what you are comfortable with. Then play to the lowest common denominator.Â

I have been around and done many variations, and will only do what suits the character/RP and am perfectly happy fading to black as it is the RP what interests me not the sex. Though intimate RP does add extra dimensions I find (does not have to be sex).

***Alothia*** · **04-17-2015, 06:58 AM**

I'm a big fan of communication and working through the ERP options as well.

I see ERP as just another side of RP. You have people who enjoy all different styles of RP. That encompasses this aspect of it as well.

The thing that I think is most important is being courteous to your partner. If you have an RP partner with a firm line that says, "I want to fade," then fade. Don't keep pushing it further and further until you've gotten them to the point of no return. Don't make them feel guilty because of their choices. Ask if they're willing to discuss what went on between the characters if it's important to development. Â Try to understand their circumstances.

If you run into people that do ERP, do not shame them for that. If it doesn't float your boat, you don't have to engage in it. But people who do engage in ERP are not inherently bad, as some posts on the RPC will lead you to believe. I believe that it is just another facet to RP, and it canÂ lead to deeper story and plot, just like anything else.

I suppose it all boils down to the main rule of don't be a dick. Seriously. We all have our own limits and boundaries. Respect each other and each other's limits. Be nice to people. If we can all do that, the community would be a much better place.

Melodia · **04-17-2015, 07:14 AM**

I echo the sentiments expressed here. You have to definitely be aware of the comfort level of the other person and be willing to discuss OOCly that level. It avoids awkward situations and can actually open up better rp opportunities with people in one way or another if you have that discussion. Maybe they don't want the full scene, but as a result you have other adventures that bring you closer. Or maybe that bond is tighter with the full scene. Everyone has a different level and communication is paramount.

I've makde no secret of how I flirt and rp with Melodia and those discussions with people have forged stronger frinedships than I might have had otherwise if I'd have forced my style on the other people.

Kudos to the OP for a thoughtful and well said post.

Dante Abigor · **04-17-2015, 07:47 AM**

I think its less that people think this subject is abhorrent as much as people feel socially obligated(on the internet lol) to go "Eeeeew, somewhat explicit things that doesn't involve virtual murder! Must point at it and scream wiiiiiitch!" then run away while saying to their friends how much they hate something they likely haven't even tried, etc.

Then later on in hush hush they probably fantasize about doing it like fanfic writers of XYZ.

Personally I have nothing against it as long as it isn't shoved down my throat, and like the OP pointed out, there are OPTIONS to go about it. Few things can get as touchy in RPs faster than something intimate, and even fewer things are considered more intimate than the subject of sex.

Not even sure where Im going with this anymore without it turning into a mini rant. Good post OP.

Hammersmith · **04-17-2015, 08:36 AM**

Like a lot of things: What others do outside of interacting with you is not your business to moderate untill it begins to directly intersect with you. Â People bumping uglies is a good example of this given that it inherently involves entangling others, which means it's always going to intersect with someone else's sensibilities just by doing that. Â Always.

And that's fine, assuming you're respectful, communicative, and not a complete asshat.Â

Unfortunately this kind of stuff often attracts predatory assholes, emotionally manipulative creeps, and worse. Â It's one of the reasons I burned the ERP bridge decades ago and didn't look back. Â I've seen it go terrible, terrible places when it goes wrong and, being the anxious, paranoid, eternally unwilling to to anything exciting automated AI that I am, I've kept my RP focused on non-romantic, non-ugly smushing interaction accordingly.

And that's me. Â Avoiding something because I've seen it wreck people.

Which isn't to say: IT can't add to a char, or build a better story. Â Romance exists for a reason people. Â Use it. Â Abuse it. Break it.

Don't be a shitlord with it though. Â Talk with whoever you're wrapping up in this story of yours, or if you get wrapped up in someone else's. Â Talk. Â Fucking talk. Â Understand what's going on, why, and for what reasons. Â Don't crush on people because you're typing words to them, don't mistake attention for romance, don't assume you're entitled to treat someone like a chatline sexbot whenever you're jonesing for a grope.

Nerds are some of the most passionate people in existence. Â They're also often some of the most lonely and as such are the most likely to get manipulated by those passions, needs, wants, and imagined meanings. Â

Communication solves all Â a lot ofÂ these problems. Â It can make the entire Fade to Black concept of this work. Â And work well. Â Hilariously well. Â But not understanding consent or treating an RP partner like a quick ego/id boost dispenser makes you a predator, a prick, and a proper fucklord who probably needs to re-evaluate why they've sidled up to the RP scene.

All RP communities have these issues. Â I've had this talk....so...so many times in my blackened eons as an elder-thing that also happens to RP in groups and communities.

There's always at least One Guy who doesn't listen and abuses others to get that quick, stupid, worthless thrill of using people as disposable things that serve their purposes

Don't be that guy. Â Go have fun. Be safe. Be sane. Â Be Fucking Consensual.

***Alothia*** · **04-17-2015, 08:42 AM**

(04-17-2015, 08:36 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: Unfortunately this kind of stuff often attracts predatory assholes, emotionally manipulative creeps, and worse. Â

Â Be safe. Be sane. Â Be Fucking Consensual.

THIS. So much this.Â

If you've ever seen that post going around on Tumblr about toxic RPers, I find that they use this as a medium for their manipulation.

I'm going to say it again, if you don't want to do it, STICK TO YOUR GUNS. Do not let anyone try to convince you to go past your comfort zone. If someone does, you don't need to RP with them. Period.

If they can't respect you enough to hold to your hard lines, they don't respect you in other aspects, and you shouldn't be getting that close to them. Because let's be serious, your RP partners are people that you get close to.

As an addendum, if any of you are going through something like this and want to talk about it, my PM box is always open. I'm happy to talk about the situation and what you can do about it. I was in a situation like this myself recently, and I know how it feels.

Blue · **04-17-2015, 08:52 AM**

As a strong ERP opposer (bear with me), and speaking as nobody else but myself, I for one stay away from it for personal tolerance reason. Personal experiences of my OOC childhood have brought me to grow scorn for sex in its entirety. I accept that people do it, mind you, nothing wrong with that. I accept less that they do it out in the public. If in real life I see two kissing, or I stumble on a sex scene on TV, I look away or change channel. Yes, it bothers me that much, don't ask... it's not as much as being prude, as being struck on the wrong nerves due to again, personal traumas of the past.

That's why, while the acknowledgment of people ERPing does not bother me, finding it in /say on my chatlog just because I dared so much as to enter a zone bothers me. I'd kindly ask that whatever you do, you do it in /p, /t, or whatever other channel, because you can never know the level of sensibility of those around you. Sure, I can walk away, and I will, but chatlog doesn't work like that. Your line is going to stay in sight for a bit before I manage to push it away from my sight and my mind. And I'd also rather not blacklist every single player I catch RPing sexually-related emotes (it'd quickly hit the blacklist cap if I did, I cannot seemingly walk into the Quicksand without reading a person ICly sharing with his/her friend his/her latest games with his/her lover and their genitalia. I get it that it's "bar talk", but when I walk in a bar I never hear that stuff outloud. People lower their tone and talk exclusively with the friends at their table about it. This can be translated in /p or /t talking), as I might want to RP with them in the future and find out they're good people.

It's not much that I ask. After all, my LS RPs the MSQ, and we know the community doesn't like it. So we strictly RP it on our linkshell channel. It's common courtesy to be aware of others' sensitiveness and take it into account when carrying out what we like to RP.

TL;DR: When RPing, try and consider the /say channel as an IC "loud enough to have everyone around you hear it", and don't use it to describe things that IRL you wouldn't say that loud. Not everyone has your same sensibility on these topics and maybe they'd rather not read what you're doing with your SO.

ArmachiA · **04-17-2015, 09:04 AM**

Oh, ERPs.

Most Roleplayers feel like they are contractually obligated to say they don't do it wherever they think Non-Rpers can see simply because roleplay already has such a strong stigma already. "Outsiders" perceive us as ERPers by default, so we have to prove we aren't.

In recent years, I've actually started seeing more roleplayers just accept that other people aren't going to get it and admit it's a part of their RP experience and that's good. No sense lying about it. It's around, people do it. If it's consensual, then all is fine and dandy.

Someone said above that they had seen ERP wreck people and I'm inclined to agree, actually. I've seen it too. There's a strange kind of bonding you have when you ERP with someone, even when you don't really take things OOC - kinda like having a one night stand with a friend you never thought you'd sleep with. That happened and now that's part of your friendship. Some people are able to laugh it off and stay really close friends in spite or (or even because of, since you know you can trust that person) it, but I've seen ERP go some dark places. People you thought were fine suddenly taking everything OOC, predatory behavior disguised as character growth (In men AND women), pushing for ERP too fast or pushing for ERP when someone is more comfortable fading to black. It all happens. I've seen it unravel friendships.

Does that mean I avoid it? Nah. I've ERPed in the past and I'll probably ERP in the future. My fiance is generally fine with it, though he can push the big "NO" button if he feels like someone is going to take it OOC. I'm a big believer in communication. It's the most important thing. It doesn't fix everything, but it helps. It helps a lot. ERP is a personal decision and if you don't want to - say so with gusto! Don't let anyone try to convince you you're wrong about it. If you do want to - understand it's something that needs a lot of communication and time to make work with constant back and forth between the two parties as a reminder "This is not real."

Rosamund · **04-17-2015, 09:16 AM**

(04-17-2015, 08:36 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: Unfortunately this kind of stuff often attracts predatory assholes, emotionally manipulative creeps, and worse.

Relationship RP in general seems to attract those types, with or without ERP. That's why, after learning the hard way, I only RP romances with people I know and trust. It's just easier to talk things out and ensure everyone's on the same page if you already feel comfortable speaking to them as a player. Of course there can still be problems but it does lower the odds quite a bit in my experience. Honest communication is the key, as has been said, so if problems do arise you can tackle them before they escalate into something worse.

Bryn · **04-17-2015, 09:17 AM**

Some good points made so far, many of which I agree with.

For my part, I'll say that there's nothing inherently wrong with ERP, provided:

Consent of both (or all! kinky.) parties is firmly established before hand.
It's kept out of public chat channels, because of complications involving rule #1; not everyone wants to see it.
OOC communication is strong and respectful.
There aren't minors involved OOCly.
The IC/OOC divide is kept firmly in place.

Eventually we're going to have to accept that the anti-RP crowd are going to keep crying about how all RP is ERP no matter what we do, because that's the stereotype they've attached to us and like most stereotypes, they have very little basis in reality and are incredibly stubborn to shift. It's best not to try.

For my part, I am an adult role-playing adult characters who possess sexualities. I want the characters I RP to be believable, well-rounded individuals and so I'm not going to shy away from portraying one whole facet of their identity because of some Victorian prudishness foisted upon the RP community by people who aren't even involved in it. Seriously, these people will judge us no matter what we do, and we shouldn't concern ourselves with pandering to their precious sensibilities.

Nebbs · **04-17-2015, 09:17 AM**

I think it is also worth noting that the interaction between people in the real world, outside of RP is not all fun and roses too. To some extent we are part of the developing way that people interact.

Just one more channel and medium for people to connect with all the good and bad that comes with that. That is not an excuse for being irresponsible or for vulnerable people being hurt, just that human nature is quite bad in some respects.

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