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LadyRochester · **06-24-2015, 08:15 AM**

Mind you, this is more of a question to get opinions.Â

While I don't condemn those that completely split OOC achievement/IC application, I admit I am not too keen on the notion.

I play a character that's supposed to be highly skilled in the magical arts, and I can't take her seriously as a mage unless I have all magic classes at 50 (now 60).

I don't mind people who claim to be powerful and are at high levels, but I can't take a level 20 character who claims to be more powerful than my own seriously, and it makes me slightly uneasy when they claim they are on the same level. However, I am not bothered by those who have a class to 50 and RP as if their characters were terrible at that skill/don't even know it. I know I don't apply all my classes to 50 icly, otherwise I do think it would be a tad too OP.Â

I understand some roleplayers don't have time, as I said, this is a matter of personal opinion. I am biased since I lean towards the DnD system, where the player's achievements are used to make their character grow.

I only think this when it comes to leveling, not raiding. I also don't mind it if they are low-level OP characters that are meant to be killed/villains, as they are easily discarded. I am referring to main characters.

Please Â keep the discussion open and respectful, I shouldn't ask this, but I've seen many threads go down the drain due to poor wording/misinterpretations.

Magellan · **06-24-2015, 08:33 AM**

This is why I prefer dice and simplified char sheets with any combat related rp. Because otherwise... people just cheat. Suddenly become capable of things they hadn't been capable of before.

Dice keeps people honest. Dice, or heavy OOC communication before the conflict.

However, Â I personally don't think ooc level matters, Â only authenticity of how you've played ur character up to that point.

LadyRochester · **06-24-2015, 08:37 AM**

(06-24-2015, 08:33 AM)Magellan Wrote: This is why I prefer dice and simplified char sheets with any combat related rp. Because otherwise... people just cheat. Suddenly become capable of things they hadn't been capable of before.

Dice keeps people honest. Dice, or heavy OOC communication before the conflict.

However, Â I personally don't think ooc level matters, Â only authenticity of how you've played ur character up to that point.

I do prefer rolls. Especially when matched with character sheets. I'm talking about non-roll based combat though, which seems to be rather popular.

Gegenji · **06-24-2015, 08:39 AM**

I find, in an RP experience, that I rarely actually look at the person's actual class and level unless it's being called to attention. Or they're not hiding/unsheathing their class' weapon which makes the former kinda obvious. In fact, the only reason I level some characters at all is for the wider spread of clothing options (Judge's outfit is almost exclusively level 50 gear minus the helmet, and the sword I want him to use when he gets DRK leveled is from the Saucer and also level 50). Without it, I would be happily content to only level dudes just enough to get the basic quality of life stuff and that's it.

The only time I personally see the levels mattering is when you're tying mechanical things with the fluff of storytelling. It's much easier to show off you're a powerful caster if you can bust out a Holy or drop Flares. I played a Pirate Captain NPC once that was supposed to be flashy and agile (dressed up a Ninja), but the only effects I could actually display in game was stealth and the dagger spam. I hadn't even unlocked the Mudra to drop the AoE field or the short range teleport jump that would've added to the flair of things. And his "crew" consisted of a low level Lancer and... one other class that escapes me right now.

And yet this group still emoted doing over-the-top things and setting the stage for some more RP. It's all about suspension of disbelief, I suppose. If you cleave close to keeping tabs on the mechanical, it's definitely going to be harder to believe this little CNJ is supposed to be a great healer when all she can do is 200-or-so healing with her Cure I. Nor can she add weight to her words by dropping a 2k Cure II to cement said claim.

However, I'm of the opinion she really doesn't need to - her power should come through her storytelling in an RP scenario more than what her level or gear looks like. If she can convincingly portray that she's a great and powerful healer despite being level 5, then I'm willing to roll with it. On the flip side, it's difficult to take seriously someone who RP's they're a great and powerful master-of-all-things with no explanation beyond them having actually leveled the class to cap.

That all said, I can totally understand the situation since - as mentioned - it's hard to "show, not tell" when you're limited on what you can show based on level and gear restrictions. It's hard to cling to the idea of your character being a durable wall of meat when you get into a party for RP and you have lower health than someone playing a caster class. And it's hard to show how mighty your aetheric skills are when the most powerful thing you can do is summon a basic Carbuncle.

Your only discourse, then, is to rely solely on your writing skills and doing the best with what you have available. I mean, before MCH was added, we still had folks RPing that they used guns... which likely was just as difficult to pull off considering there were no actual usable guns in the game yet.

Magellan · **06-24-2015, 08:42 AM**

(06-24-2015, 08:37 AM)LadyRochester Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 08:33 AM)Magellan Wrote: This is why I prefer dice and simplified char sheets with any combat related rp. Because otherwise... people just cheat. Suddenly become capable of things they hadn't been capable of before.

Dice keeps people honest. Dice, or heavy OOC communication before the conflict.

However, Â I personally don't think ooc level matters, Â only authenticity of how you've played ur character up to that point.

I do prefer rolls. Especially when matched with character sheets. I'm talking about non-roll based combat though, which seems to be rather popular.

There is no ultimate decider for non roll based combat, so yea... you run into people building enough power levels to slay a Primal when they are sitting at lvl one.

They have not signed on to an agreed set of rules so they go as far as their imagination allows... which can be pretty far.

I avoid combat rp unless I'm comfortable with the other rper, or unless there are established groundrules.

EDIT: @ Gege: I had someone comment icly on my characters archery, because they checked to see I was oocly an archer. But... I had my bow hidden. I was oocly archer because it was a higher lvl class, therefore access to more clothes.

Icly, my character explained they'd never touched a bow in their life. They preferred to do their talking with their fists. The other person seemed sorely confused ^^;

LadyRochester · **06-24-2015, 08:45 AM**

(06-24-2015, 08:39 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I find, in an RP experience, that I rarely actually look at the person's actual class and level unless it's being called to attention. Or they're not hiding/unsheathing their class' weapon which makes the former kinda obvious. In fact, the only reason I level some characters at all is for the wider spread of clothing options (Judge's outfit is almost exclusively level 50 gear minus the helmet, and the sword I want him to use when he gets DRK leveled is from the Saucer and also level 50). Without it, I would be happily content to only level dudes just enough to get the basic quality of life stuff and that's it.

The only time I personally see the levels mattering is when you're tying mechanical things with the fluff of storytelling. It's much easier to show off you're a powerful caster if you can bust out a Holy or drop Flares. I played a Pirate Captain NPC once that was supposed to be flashy and agile (dressed up a Ninja), but the only effects I could actually display in game was stealth and the dagger spam. I hadn't even unlocked the Mudra to drop the AoE field or the short range teleport jump that would've added to the flair of things. And his "crew" consisted of a low level Lancer and... one other class that escapes me right now.

And yet this group still emoted doing over-the-top things and setting the stage for some more RP. It's all about suspension of disbelief, I suppose. If you cleave close to keeping tabs on the mechanical, it's definitely going to be harder to believe this little CNJ is supposed to be a great healer when all she can do is 200-or-so healing with her Cure I. Nor can she add weight to her words by dropping a 2k Cure II to cement said claim.

However, I'm of the opinion she really doesn't need to - her power should come through her storytelling in an RP scenario more than what her level or gear looks like. If she can convincingly portray that she's a great and powerful healer despite being level 5, then I'm willing to roll with it. On the flip side, it's difficult to take seriously someone who RP's they're a great and powerful master-of-all-things with no explanation beyond them having actually leveled the class to cap.

That all said, I can totally understand the situation since - as mentioned - it's hard to "show, not tell" when you're limited on what you can show based on level and gear restrictions. It's hard to cling to the idea of your character being a durable wall of meat when you get into a party for RP and you have lower health than someone playing a caster class. And it's hard to show how mighty your aetheric skills are when the most powerful thing you can do is summon a basic Carbuncle.

Your only discourse, then, is to rely solely on your writing skills and doing the best with what you have available. I mean, before MCH was added, we still had folks RPing that they used guns... which likely was just as difficult to pull off considering there were no actual usable guns in the game yet.

This is quite a sensible response, I like it. And yes, I don't support characters who are"powerful just because" regardless of their level. It does boil down to writing skills, but I am still biased against low-level characters regardless of their writing skill at times. I believe that part of the fun of RP is watching your character grow IC and OOC, but I know many do not share this opinion.

I'm a level 50 BRD and Sasha would never use the bow--Ever. IF she did, she'd... Fail miserably. I try to keep my options open towards those who are low-level, but I would be lying if I said I didn't have a harder time taking them seriously--Unless they are villains or it was pre-arranged OOC.

Hammersmith · **06-24-2015, 08:52 AM**

I Â don't tie my char's accomplishments or abilities to in game mechanics.

Hammer's a siege smith and a gearhead, but most of his real "power" sits in his ability to grease the wheels of a war machine and get large-scale logistical work churning out weapons and war supplies on a large, ugly, mass blacksmithing scale.

There's no in game equivalent class for that. Â Blacksmithing exists, but it's not going to stock a platoon's armor racks anywhere in game. Â It means he knows a bit about black powder, but doesn't mean we now have trebuchets or cannons in game outside of the Ishgarde instances.

Conversely I'm working on culinarian with Hammer, and he is NOT A GOOD COOK (Unless it's meat). Â He enjoys singing and song but I'm never going to call him a bard and will probably never level the class. Having (some) of the points of a class does not require you to have that class leveled.

In short a char's life experience isn't defined by game mechanics. Â Really you can claim anything and bam, it is. Â The trick is, as it always is in RP, knowing what not to claim and embracing the flaws/shortcomings/lack of knowledge in your char and making THAT fun as well.

Dis · **06-24-2015, 08:57 AM**

I'm of the opinion that OOC game mechanics should be their own thing, and RP skill and player experience should be the most important tidbit to pay attention to. Â My character is a world traveler (or was, she's settled on Eorzea as home), and came into the game with her previous experience. Â That said, initially, she was very poorly adept at using the skills on Eorzea, despite her experiences in other places. Â Even cutting down that aspect of her character, Meallaire, which is who Glioca was before she 'changed' after the Calamity, was over 200 years old thanks to Aether boo-boos. Â She had experience. Â Just because my character level was 10, that shouldn't negate either the work I'd put into her backstory, nor the work I'd put into her as a character. Â

That said, I do understand what you mean, and from a D&D perspective, character level being equated with experience is perfectly understandable. Â That's how a character grows, and you have life/world experience as you adventure and complete tasks, interact with the world, etc. Â In this case, those interactions are strictly with other players, and not with the pre-set NPC's designed by the Dungeon Master. Â As such, you have to account for time role-played as the equivalent of your character's 'experience', rather than the game mechanics displayed by popping Cure II after a particularly riveting post.Â

The perspective is definitely something I understand, but not something I can agree with, because you're basically cutting out a section of role-players who come to the game strictly to role-play, and maybe level their character only casually, and so aren't as high level as others. Â There are some good low-level gear sets that look good on characters, and so being forced to max level in order to display how 'strong' you are isn't very fair. Â Especially for those who spend most of their time RPing, and very little time involved in the PvE aspect of the game due to time constraints, etc. Â

I think there has to be that suspension of disbelief to afford fairness to those who prioritize one aspect of the game (RP) over the other aspects of the game (PVE, PVP).

LadyRochester · **06-24-2015, 09:00 AM**

(06-24-2015, 08:52 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: I Â don't tie my char's accomplishments or abilities to in game mechanics.

Hammer's a siege smith and a gearhead, but most of his real "power" sits in his ability to grease the wheels of a war machine and get large-scale logistical work churning out weapons and war supplies on a large, ugly, mass blacksmithing scale.

There's no in game equivalent class for that. Â Blacksmithing exists, but it's not going to stock a platoon's armor racks anywhere in game. Â It means he knows a bit about black powder, but doesn't mean we now have trebuchets or cannons in game outside of the Ishgarde instances.

Conversely I'm working on culinarian with Hammer, and he is NOT A GOOD COOK (Unless it's meat). Â He enjoys singing and song but I'm never going to call him a bard and will probably never level the class. Â Having (some) of the points of a class does not require you to have that class leveled.

In short a char's life experience isn't defined by game mechanics. Â Really you can claim anything and bam, it is. Â The trick is, as it always is in RP, knowing what not to claim and embracing the flaws/shortcomings/lack of knowledge in your char and making THAT fun as well.

See, I never said anything about high level characters not having flaws. Flaws are absolutely necessary for a character, OP characters are boring and annoying to RP with. My stance is that between two good RPers, if they are fighting (without rolls and no OOC arrangement) I will not be able to take a level 20 character as seriously as the level 55 one.

I once had someone oocily make veiled threats towards my character, claiming she had been "an expert ninja and dancer and sorcerer" because she was "trained all her life".

She was level 18.

She was threatening my level 50 character OOCily.

I'm sorry, perhaps I am horrid, but I find that laughable at best. Perhaps it was the unprovoked veiled aggression that left a bitter taste in my mouth towards such individuals.

Does it mean I would never allow my character to get beaten by a low level character? Absolutely not. In fact, she has lost many fights and has been nearly killed by low-level characters. But I believe that for such scenarios, there has to be an OOC agreement beforehand (and trust), while I am more open to a level 50 random seeking a fight with my character.

Gegenji · **06-24-2015, 09:09 AM**

(06-24-2015, 09:00 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: I once had someone oocily make veiled threats towards my character, claiming she had been "an expert ninja and dancer and sorcerer" because she was "trained all her life".

She was level 18.

She was threatening my level 50 character OOCily.

Would her claims be any more substantial is she had Ninja and Black Mage leveled to 60, though? Unless you're heavily summarizing what she's saying... it sounds like she's trying for "respect my power because I say so." Something that, in my opinion, would be grating regardless of level. Even if she leveled the classes OOCly, she only has an OOC claim to them unless she had quite the narrative involved on how she mastered both magic and ninjitsu while still also having time to become a super-great dancer.

Jaran · **06-24-2015, 09:11 AM**

(06-24-2015, 08:57 AM)Glioca Sargonnai Wrote: I think there has to be that suspension of disbelief to afford fairness to those who prioritize one aspect of the game (RP) over the other aspects of the game (PVE, PVP).

It does sorta even itself out, doesn't it? Most PVEers get more exclusive shiny things to show off, most RPers have more people to show their shiny things off to.Â

As much as I'd like to answer the initial question with an "it doesn't matter at all" ... it kinda does.
I get where the other side is coming from (and I know that good RPers usually won't do this) but if I bust my ass to get something, I often do so because I'd like to use it IC or implement it into my character. It feels cheap, to me, to have a person say 'yeah, well me too!' when they didn't do the work to get there. This can be anything from levels to items to mounts to minions. Take your pick.

Kurt S. · **06-24-2015, 09:11 AM**

I guess I'm of a different branch here.Â

I mean if I level someone I'll try to reflect all those hours I spent to get there. If I have a crazy rare weapon, I claim it as a replica at best, something inspired by but not really the actual thing.Â

That demon armor he's toting? Totally an inspired design by this armorer he knows. But the point is I reflect it and not just hide it to make it look like your everyday run of the mill steel set because RP said so. I didn't spend hours upon hours of run and runs of WoD just to hide it or not use it.

Of course when it comes to skill level, I try to reflect that too, give or take cut it in half. Sure, Kurt's a warrior, he can swing an axe and all and he's got the inner beast shtick. But can he control it? No. Does he fight like a fighter? Hell no, he's an animal, screw finesse. Granted, I've only combat rp'd a handful of times.Â

I try to level what's relevant to the character. She's a lancer? Well by god, Imma level DRG to 60 on her and no other classes than the bare necessity to get to Dragoon.

Even if it means several characters instead of that one god character I spent hours and hours 50/60'ing classes he's not even gonna use or reflect IC. But that's probably me being fickle, I tend to get bored looking at the same face day in and day out.Â

So yeah what level they are OOCly is kind of important at least for how I play my characters.

Magellan · **06-24-2015, 09:14 AM**

(06-24-2015, 09:00 AM)LadyRochester Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 08:52 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: I Â don't tie my char's accomplishments or abilities to in game mechanics.

Hammer's a siege smith and a gearhead, but most of his real "power" sits in his ability to grease the wheels of a war machine and get large-scale logistical work churning out weapons and war supplies on a large, ugly, mass blacksmithing scale.

There's no in game equivalent class for that. Â Blacksmithing exists, but it's not going to stock a platoon's armor racks anywhere in game. Â It means he knows a bit about black powder, but doesn't mean we now have trebuchets or cannons in game outside of the Ishgarde instances.

Conversely I'm working on culinarian with Hammer, and he is NOT A GOOD COOK (Unless it's meat). Â He enjoys singing and song but I'm never going to call him a bard and will probably never level the class. Â Having (some) of the points of a class does not require you to have that class leveled.

In short a char's life experience isn't defined by game mechanics. Â Really you can claim anything and bam, it is. Â The trick is, as it always is in RP, knowing what not to claim and embracing the flaws/shortcomings/lack of knowledge in your char and making THAT fun as well.

See, I never said anything about high level characters not having flaws. Flaws are absolutely necessary for a character, OP characters are boring and annoying to RP with. My stance is that between two good RPers, if they are fighting (without rolls and no OOC arrangement) I will not be able to take a level 20 character as seriously as the level 55 one.

I once had someone oocily make veiled threats towards my character, claiming she had been "an expert ninja and dancer and sorcerer" because she was "trained all her life".

She was level 18.

She was threatening my level 50 character OOCily.

I'm sorry, perhaps I am horrid, but I find that laughable at best. Perhaps it was the unprovoked veiled aggression that left a bitter taste in my mouth towards such individuals.

Does it mean I would never allow my character to get beaten by a low level character? Absolutely not. In fact, she has lost many fights and has been nearly killed by low-level characters. But I believe that for such scenarios, there has to be an OOC agreement beforehand (and trust), while I am more open to a level 50 random seeking a fight with my character.

But their life didn't begin at lvl 1. Their training didn't begin at lvl 1. Their story began long before the ooc player ever set foot in Eorzea. Â That's why it's called a BACK story.

Ooc lvl has absolutely nothing to do with it. Dnd rp is not the same as mmo rp

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 09:17 AM**

It doesn't count for everything, but I'm going to be more inclined to have Dogberry take the boasts of a level 50 in Dreadwyrm more seriously than a level 15 in Plundered set.

Magellan · **06-24-2015, 09:20 AM**

(06-24-2015, 09:17 AM)Dogberry Wrote: It doesn't count for everything, but I'm going to be more inclined to have Dogberry take the boasts of a level 50 in Dreadwyrm more seriously than a level 15 in Plundered set.

So the Scions shouldn't be taken seriously because of Â the clothes they wear?

Poll: How important is OOC level/Achievement? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Not important at all.	55.56%	60	55.56%
Somewhat important.	37.04%	40	37.04%
Very important.	7.41%	8	7.41%
Total		108 vote(s)	100%

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