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Melkire · **07-08-2015, 02:16 PM**

I'd like folks thoughts on this. This might also be a helpful thread to continue the discussion started here.

Here's my understanding of the titles:

1. The adventurers present at Carteneau who were sent forward in time by Louisoux are considered "Warriors of Light," per 2.0 starting MSQ (see: banquet scenes, Cid's special 2.0 dialogue for 1.x players).

2. Those adventurers and other individuals seen in 2.0's introduction to Hydaelyn after the MC acquires his/her first crystal are known and referred to as "Hydaelyn's Chosen" frequently throughout 2.x and 3.0. This seems to correspond so well to those who possess the Echo that the two seem almost interchangeable; if you are one of Hydaelyn's Chosen, you likely possess the Echo. In any case, that there are many of these individuals, and that not all of them are adventurers, is something confirmed both by Minfilia's existence and a 3.0 MSQ lore drop courtesy of Iceheart and others.

3. There is some ambiguity over whether the MC of 2x./3.0 is one of the Warriors of Light from 1.x or not. This is to accommodate the difference between 1.x players and 2.x-only players. In any event, the 2.x/3.0 MC is eventually acknowledged as a Warrior of Light, even if only as a new one. This makes it seem that "Warrior of Light" is more a title than anything.

4. The companions of the 2.x/3.0 WoL MC who aid him or her at various points throughout the MSQ - the assault on Castrum Meridianum and the Praetorium, for example - are acknowledged as highly-skilled fellow adventurers. It is heavily implied that these particular individuals are also Hydaelyn's Chosen. Whether or not they are Warriors of Light is up in the air. They are NOT, however, the Bringer of Light, which we're getting to right... now.

5. The title of "Bringer of Light" is specifically given to the 2.x/3.0 WoL MC, and canonically speaking there is only one such individual. This also aligns well with the 3.0 MSQ spoiler that...

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EDIT: I've avoided touching the subject of "Hydaelyn's Blessing" because I'm not sure whether it's ever definitively stated exactly WHAT that refers to: whether it's the Echo, or the Bringer of Light's enormous capabilities that Midgardsormr seals away, or just Hydaelyn going "YO, DAWG, YOU'RE MY HOMIE." See Sounsyy's post here for more.

EDIT 2:

A useful diagram drafted up by an anonymous soul. Blame them for anything wrong with it.

[Image: vdrOIrn.jpg]

Sigil.9054 · **07-08-2015, 02:37 PM**

Good information. My character (A newbie as of 2.0) was referred to in a story as a WoL, which I thought was odd, so this post is exactly what I needed to clear that up.

Would you mind linking the lore drops you mentioned? I'd love to read more on the matter and whatever else is covered.

Kage · **07-08-2015, 02:43 PM**

I made a thread about some of this earlier in the year after the 2.5? patch. Essentially when Midgardsomr comes in etc.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=9753

I haven't had time to parse but there's also this thread when I asked the same thing on the official forums.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...g-Spoilers

FreelanceWizard · **07-08-2015, 03:13 PM**

Yeah, that's pretty much how I view it. You have increasingly small subsets of people until you get to the One and Only Hero, the Adventurer/the Bringer of Light/the Warrior of Light/the Awesome Dude of Awesomeness. Smile

(That last one may be dramatic license on my part.)

Remember: player characters are a tiny subset of the overall Eorzean populace. Yes, playing a PC with the Echo who's also a highly skilled adventurer means you're playing something rare among Eorzeans, but not among player characters, since they're already rare.

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Virella · **07-08-2015, 03:23 PM**

Interesting Topic!

However I got the bring a few things up for speculation, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

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&

The Church speaks of maddening whispers by the Dravanian Horde, how people turn to heresy. Would this mean Ishgardians possess the Echo on a large scale base?

Gegenji · **07-08-2015, 03:27 PM**

(07-08-2015, 03:23 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: Interesting enough, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

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MQS ending spoilerIs Estinien an Echo gifted individual as well? He speaks with Hreavaglr when the greatwyrm is clearly talking in the tongue of the Dravanians.

And with him turning into Nidhogg. HMM. HMMMM. Count me a bit confused currently?

Also

The Church speaks of maddening whispers by the Dravanian Horde, would this mean Ishgardians possess the Echo on a large scale base?

I would attribute that to being an ability of some of the Dravanians, not that a large population like that has the Echo. I believe the MSQ moment you speak of also makes a point of explaining that briefly.

Melkire · **07-08-2015, 03:28 PM**

(07-08-2015, 03:13 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:

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2.x spoilers
The question of whether the Echo is the same thing as being Hydaelyn's Chosen is an interesting one. One read of the cutscenes suggests that they are, in fact, the same thing; Minfilia refers specifically to no longer hearing Her voice towards the end of 2.x, and Midgardsormr notes how Her powers are waning and therefore strikes a new bargain (though the nature of the bargain, and whether it applies just to The Adventurer or to all of Hydaelyn's Chosen, isn't clear to me, at least).

However, it's interesting that others with the Echo, such as the Sahagin elder who summons Leviathan and Ysayle, never refer to hearing Hydaelyn's voice. The Ascians also sometimes talk about the Echo and how everyone's lack of understanding of it will be their downfall. So, I wonder if this is a case of Hydaelyn granting the Echo, but it's not what those who have it believe it to be?

The following constitute spoilers very late in the 3.0 MSQ line. Do not open the following unless you have completed 3.0 MSQ (read: you've seen the credits scroll).

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As for the Echo: if you'll follow the links Kage and I made to an older thread, Sounsyy references lore that establishes that the Echo is not exclusive to Hydaelyn's Chosen, though it can be surmised that all of Hydaelyn's Chosen likely possess the Echo.

(07-08-2015, 03:23 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: Interesting Topic!

However I got the bring a few things up for speculation, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

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MQS ending spoilerIs Estinien an Echo gifted individual as well? He speaks with Hreavaglr when the greatwyrm is clearly talking in the tongue of the Dravanians.

And with him turning into Nidhogg. HMM. HMMMM. Count me a bit confused currently?

It's my guess that...

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Virella · **07-08-2015, 03:28 PM**

(07-08-2015, 03:27 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(07-08-2015, 03:23 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: Interesting enough, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

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MQS ending spoilerIs Estinien an Echo gifted individual as well? He speaks with Hreavaglr when the greatwyrm is clearly talking in the tongue of the Dravanians.

And with him turning into Nidhogg. HMM. HMMMM. Count me a bit confused currently?

Also

The Church speaks of maddening whispers by the Dravanian Horde, would this mean Ishgardians possess the Echo on a large scale base?

I would attribute that to being an ability of some of the Dravanians, not that a large population like that has the Echo. I believe the MSQ moment you speak of also makes a point of explaining that briefly.

Hmm. Going to have to rewatch the cutscenes, I will report back soon if I can find something! I think indeed something was said at one point, either in Keeper of the Lake, or when you speak with that one other dragon.

Aysun · **07-08-2015, 03:34 PM**

That little graphic is the best way I've seen it described so far! Would be fun to use it to describe our little snowflakes, especially us 1.0 peoples. Â Like, Aysun would fall into black, red, orange, and green. XD Silly, but to the point.

Flashhelix · **07-08-2015, 03:35 PM**

I seem to remember at least one or two offhand references about dragoons being able to understand dragonspeak, but I wouldn't know the source, most likely quest text from the 30-50 DRG stuff.

FreelanceWizard · **07-08-2015, 03:38 PM**

I guess my larger point was that it's clear that the Echo holds more mysteries than have yet been explained, including what it can do and exactly where it comes from. No one but the Ascians really seems to know much about it, and they're sure not talking. The contradictions in the various lore bits suggest that the story behind it is a lot more complicated than we know thus far...

(07-08-2015, 03:28 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: Hmm. Going to have to rewatch the cutscenes, I will report back soon if I can find something! I think indeed something was said at one point, either in Keeper of the Lake, or when you speak with that one other dragon.

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-no longer matters- · **07-08-2015, 03:40 PM**

I would imagine anyone that RPed an adventurer that wanted to RP Dungeons, raids and trails (with a consenting RP group of course.) would have to at the very least have the Echo so they can't be tempered by the primals.

Melkire · **07-08-2015, 03:43 PM**

(07-08-2015, 03:40 PM)War Siren Wrote: I would imagine anyone that RPed an adventurer that wanted to RP Dungeons, raids and trails (with a consenting RP group of course.) would have to at the very least have the Echo so they can't be tempered by the primals.

Not so. Dungeons don't have any lore which explicitly or implicitly state that Echo is required. Any trials involving primals would either require Echo, a lore-compliant substitute, or a roleplay-contrived substitute (see: Dogberry and Stormwind's Primal Fight events, where if I'm not mistaken a magitek device devised for the purpose of the RP session as introduced as a means of justifying why folks weren't going to get tempered).

FreelanceWizard · **07-08-2015, 03:44 PM**

(07-08-2015, 03:40 PM)War Siren Wrote: I would imagine anyone that RPed an adventurer that wanted to RP Dungeons, raids and trails (with a consenting RP group of course.) would have to at the very least have the Echo so they can't be tempered by the primals.

Technically, you'd only need the Echo to fight primals. Most everything else is within the bounds of what a skilled adventurer could plausibly do, allowing a certain degree of finesse to make the content appropriately generic to do it IC (it's not Tioman you're fighting, it's Some Other Dragon; it's not the same part of the Tam-Tara Deepcroft each time, it's different sections of it and it's a popular place for dark rituals given what it is; and so on).

EDIT: Also, note that Tempering isn't a guarantee. The Company of Heroes and the Immortal Flames both used what I like to call the Brannigan Strategy to fell primals -- send in wave after wave of your own men, using later waves to fight the Tempered from the previous one. It's wasteful, sure, but the battle of attrition eventually takes the primal down.

Virella · **07-08-2015, 03:45 PM**

(07-08-2015, 03:38 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I guess my larger point was that it's clear that the Echo holds more mysteries than have yet been explained, including what it can do and exactly where it comes from. No one but the Ascians really seems to know much about it, and they're sure not talking. The contradictions in the various lore bits suggest that the story behind it is a lot more complicated than we know thus far...

(07-08-2015, 03:28 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: Hmm. Going to have to rewatch the cutscenes, I will report back soon if I can find something! I think indeed something was said at one point, either in Keeper of the Lake, or when you speak with that one other dragon.

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This may not be the whole story, but
When you're talking with Hraesvalgr the first time, Alphinaud (who doesn't have the Echo) comments that while he was hearing words in Dravanian, he could understand them as if they were his native tongue. He surmises this is because of the great wyrm's considerable force of will.

Edit: Actually...

Dragonspeak by Fernehalwes

So, it is safe to say that while a non-dragon may endeavor to study the dragon language, it would be nearly impossible in their short (compared to a dragon) lifespan to even begin to fully grasp the intricacies of it. And, because of this, the only way a non-dragon would be able to understand a dragon is if the dragon chose to speak in the non-dragonâ€™s language, or the non-dragon was blessed with the power of the Echo.

Edit: What brings me to another topic!

How old is the Echo? If indeed the Ishgardian lot possess the echo; because

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Just vague theory crafting at this point, but interesting non the less Smile

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Warrior of Light, Hydaelyn's Chosen, and Bringer of Light

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes