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Avira · **11-17-2015, 11:45 AM**

The topic might be sensible to approach. But Let's all remain constructive here!Â Thumbsup

So to start, everyone have a different view on the matter. As a side statement before digging up. I am not talking about ERP here.

My point is that a lot of the language people try to use in the actual IC context seems to be coarse and harsh language. Allow me to use the example of the quicksand here, best place to get walk up or just have the joy of observing on going role play.Â

So in Quicksand you generally see the story teller type of role player and the amateur veteran type (That's how I call them in my book), and some other type that are minority.

So what I did noticed is the words such as " Whore " and " fuck " do come back often. Accented violence from modern language that seems to be more popular.

A new word that made it's big popularity is " cunt ".

I personally find this kind of use for words in IC context out of their place and kills the fantasy. Modern words got their place in RP but in a game like Final Fantasy? I personally think not. I miss the classic expression like "Blood hell" or "Lap dog". The moderns words seems more appropriate in a sci-fi or modern setting, to my humble opinion.Â

So tell me what you think about this RPC? Are against it or for it?
Do you have examples that would help the conversation?

~Avi

Oli! · **11-17-2015, 12:15 PM**

"Fuck" has been used since at least 1475. Under Etymology, a mention from the year 1310 is also present.

I can't find a definitive year for "Whore," but it has been used by Shakespeare, placing it at least between 1590 and 1613, but it is likely much older than that.

"Cunt" is older than both, from 1325 (or older; further on down the page, there's a case for it being used in the year 1230).

By contrast, "Lap Dog" is in fact younger than all of these (approx. 1640), and is predicted to not have had its current meaning until 1950.

"Bloody" as a swear word is also on the younger side, hovering around 1676, and you can't have "Bloody Hell" without it.

Words like what people use are what people would have used back then. The problem is that modern literature uses one's suspension of belief to trick us into believing that some words are more period appropriate than others, even though this is not the case in history. If anything is contributing to the idea of people's speech seeming "too modern," it is likely the grammatical structure used, rather than any word in particular.

Honestly, if we wanted to go with full-on accuracy anyway, people in Eorzea wouldn't even be speaking English, they'd be speaking whatever common language your Enter key translates into when you press it and your character speaks in the setting. So you can honestly just assume that they're using [contemporary language-appropriate swear word] whenever you type "Fuck" and press enter.

Might also want to slap a NSFW tag on this thread.

ChaosMAJORA · **11-17-2015, 12:17 PM**

I understand where you're coming from here. ^_^

Let me open by saying that, firstly, I agree. I feel like - at least to begin with - people who RP start by using character archetypes, quirks and language that they're most familiar with until they "find their character's voice". I feel that RP should encourage adopting the colloquialisms and nuances of the setting, and it's important that people are led to this in a neutral manner.

For example, if someone RPing with me was to use the phrase "Fucking hell", I'd probably - in the same context - use the phrase "By the Hells" myself. I feel like, rather than pointing out OOCly in the same instance that someone is 'wrong' for doing it, it's better to ease them into knowing what 'should be said'.

I want to point out that I in NO way mean that people shouldn't be free to RP as they see fit, but I DO think it's worth trying to know a character better. RP, in my opinion, isn't so much about 'inserting self' into a world, but more about creating a life in it, and being them in their setting with their experience!

Sorry to blog - the long and short of it is that I agree with you, OP. I think it's worth encouraging others to use expletives that fit the setting, just so it makes the whole RP process work a little more smoothly. ^_^

Edit: To respond to Oli! right quick: I feel the concern is the use of what we IRL would see as a 'colloquialism' or 'cursory language' being used in a setting that is not our own. ^_^

Oli! · **11-17-2015, 12:27 PM**

(11-17-2015, 12:17 PM)ChaosMAJORA Wrote: To respond to Oli! right quick: I feel the concern is the use of what we IRL would see as a 'colloquialism' or 'cursory language' being used in a setting that is not our own. ^_^

This is something I addressed in my latter paragraphs; if we were to really follow this thought out, people in this setting aren't even speaking our language. The words that we use are not particularly "modern," and as I stated, would have found purchase in the rough real-life historical period of the setting in which we play.

What hasÂ differed between then and now is sentence structure and (sometimes) meaning. Words, however, are older than we think.

ChaosMAJORA · **11-17-2015, 12:39 PM**

Factually correct, so I won't disagree there. ^_^

How do I put this...perhaps the concern isn't so much whether the words have a place - or even a home in the Ezorean dialect, which as youÂ rightly stated may be the case -Â so much as whether they'd be used in the same context as we would use them RL? I'm certain I've noted NPCs saying "Bloody Hells", "Bastard" or "Whoreson" - I suppose those wouldn't be too outlandish to hear in RP...

Perhaps this is the concern?Â

(As a side note, I also think that gratuitous cursing is a bit of a grey area: really depends on the character being played/what THEY'D say. Just to clear that up in case I'm misunderstood later!)

Oli! · **11-17-2015, 12:49 PM**

(11-17-2015, 12:39 PM)ChaosMAJORA Wrote: perhaps the concern isn't so much whether the words have a place - or even a home in the Ezorean dialect, which as youÂ rightly stated may be the case -Â so much as whether they'd be used in the same context as we would use them RL?

Yes, this is part of the argument. "Cunt" is believed to be obscene at least by Shakespeare's time. "Fuck" has been used sexually since at least 1310. "Whoreson," "Whoremonger," and other such things, are common insults in Shakespeare's plays. "Fuck" has been an adjective / intensifier grammatically since 1528 (and was still used as a descriptor of sorts in the 1310 example). Even the first usage of "I don't give a fuck" is older than the insulting use of "lap dog," surfacing in 1790 and beating it by 160 years.

These words, and their "modern" usages, have been around for a while.

ChaosMAJORA · **11-17-2015, 01:00 PM**

(11-17-2015, 12:49 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 12:39 PM)ChaosMAJORA Wrote: perhaps the concern isn't so much whether the words have a place - or even a home in the Ezorean dialect, which as youÂ rightly stated may be the case -Â so much as whether they'd be used in the same context as we would use them RL?

Yes, this is part of the argument. "Cunt" is believed to be obscene at least by Shakespeare's time. "Fuck" has been used sexually since at least 1310. "Whoreson," "Whoremonger," and other such things, are common insults in Shakespeare's plays. "Fuck" has been an adjective / intensifier grammatically since 1528 (and has still been used as a descriptor of sorts in the 1310 example). Even the first usage of "I don't give a fuck" is older than the insulting use of "lap dog," surfacing in 1790 and beating it by almost 200 years.

These words, and their "modern" usages, have been around for a while.

There's the key then, I acknowledge: the word's modern usage, and whether or not the same usage is relevant in Ezorea.

That actually brings me to a bit of a 'middle ground' in this thought track; have we sufficient evidence to suggest - or even confirm - that these colloquialisms/curses have historical grounding in Ezorea's lore? Or are our characters, by wordsÂ based on our OOCÂ tongue,Â givingÂ them a place by evolving the dialect in a very real, and fairÂ way?

I believe I see what you're getting at: whether or not the word "fuck" has a place in Ezorea may not be the issue, so much as whether or not a word meaning the same, usable in the same setting may be 'the norm' - in which case, we merely use "fuck" as a placeholder forÂ the 'Ezorean'Â word!

I'm sorry to drone on, butÂ this is nothing short of fascinating to discuss - as a Literature graduate. ^_^

Avira · **11-17-2015, 01:09 PM**

(11-17-2015, 12:27 PM)Oli! Wrote: This is something I addressed in my latter paragraphs; if we were to really follow this thought out, people in this setting aren't even speaking our language. The words that we use are not particularly "modern," and as I stated, would have found purchase in the rough real-life historical period of the setting in which we play.

What hasÂ differed between then and now is sentence structure and (sometimes) meaning. Words, however, are older than we think.

It is a valid point. But therefore lies one problem, not only it resembles every day talk, but those words may be use a profanity against terms of service as well. Not me who would report that anyway since I am the first one to be able of talking nasty.

However I got a feeling that the choice of words structure lies a bit within the Light versus Heavy role player. Which is why I suit myself as medium level role player. I will do common mistake or status of the light role player. But I believe the language or choice of words that I personally enjoy, or cherish. Would lean to side what the heavier role player with vouch for.

Movies are the best example that will reflect such thought. A deep immersion versus a light immersion. At least my knowledge this is one way to represent-ate it.Â

You have a good knowledge of the history of English language, without any doubt, Oli!.

Leanne · **11-17-2015, 01:13 PM**

This is rather interesting, and a point I actually use ICly with Leanne, not only for cursing, but for other modern words.

We must remember, we create words to convey something. A rather infamous example, the word selfie, a rather recent addition to our dictionary, created to convey the meaning: A silly photo of someone making a duck face x3

Leanne is traveler, and as such, she hears a ton of different words and slangs being thrown here and there, some she never heard, sometimes adopting them because...hey, it conveys something! Perhaps doing such, others shall also adopt the word. And so others shall adopt from those who adopted from Leanne. And so it goes, and it goes...

Oli! · **11-17-2015, 01:18 PM**

(11-17-2015, 01:00 PM)ChaosMAJORA Wrote: That actually brings me to a bit of a 'middle ground' in this thought track; have we sufficient evidence to suggest - or even confirm - that these colloquialisms/curses have historical grounding in Ezorea's lore? Or are our characters, by wordsÂ based on our OOCÂ tongue,Â givingÂ them a place by evolving the dialect in a very real, and fairÂ way?

I believe I see what you're getting at: whether or not the word "fuck" has a place in Ezorea may not be the issue, so much as whether or not a word meaning the same, usable in the same setting may be 'the norm' - in which case, we merely use "fuck" as a placeholder forÂ the 'Ezorean'Â word!

I'm sorry to drone on, butÂ this is nothing short of fascinating to discuss - as a Literature graduate. ^_^

There's no real way to know whether or not there is a word that represents such things, because we aren't provided with a glossary or complete Eorzean language for people to use. As a result, this isn't really anything that can be argued on any objective grounds. All we have are people's personal flavor preferences; this is why I'm going on a historical basis, because any sort of argument that boils down to "I like these words because they sound better" isn't really going to go anywhere constructive, and will eventually become circular if people are set in their ways.

(11-17-2015, 01:09 PM)Avira Wrote: It is a valid point. But therefore lies one problem, not only it resembles every day talk, but those words may be use a profanity against terms of service as well. Not me who would report that anyway since I am the first one to be able of talking nasty.

However I got a feeling that the choice of words structure lies a bit within the Light versus Heavy role player. Which is why I suit myself as medium level role player. I will do common mistake or status of the light role player. But I believe the language or choice of words that I personally enjoy, or cherish. Would lean to side what the heavier role player with vouch for.

Movies are the best example that will reflect such thought. A deep immersion versus a light immersion. At least my knowledge this is one way to represent-ate it.Â

You have a good knowledge of the history of English language, without any doubt, Oli!.

I can't argue against the Terms of Service. It's generally accepted in most RP communities that if you're going to curse like a sailor, you take your mutes / bans like a champ and move on.

Light versus Heavy is also a subjective viewpoint; some people view Light v. Heavy as a measure of how much timeÂ one spends roleplaying. Others view it by how developed one's character is. Others view it as how much they stick to the lore, how many things their characters have done, how many events they've been to, how many characters they have or roleplay, and many, many other things. Some people might even use Light v. Heavy to determine the type or quality of the language that they or others use.

So even then, we can't use that as a measure for what words seem more appropriate than others. As someone who (I guess?) considers themselves a "Heavy" roleplayer, even though I don't use these words myself (mainly because my characters don't curse), I won't really care if someone else does.

Virella · **11-17-2015, 01:23 PM**

If you cannot stand curse words for one reason or the other? I'd suggest simply flicking on the profanity filter again. Surely it will not block all, and eh, even the NPCs can be pretty lewd if not cursing like sailors, but it may stop some of if it if you don't wish to see it.

Honestly, as long it fits the character, setting, and it ain't done to just sound edgy ooc? Go for it!

Kage · **11-17-2015, 01:28 PM**

[youtube]CS--izSnbNk[/youtube]

"Thal's Bloody Balls"

Would you agree that for some people 'bloody' would have been seen as something that is a colloquial term (RL inserted into Eorzea) and probably would have continued to see it as that way until it was seen by a player in-game or at FanFest?

ChaosMAJORA · **11-17-2015, 01:37 PM**

By the look of things, I suppose this really does boil down to "RP as you feel you should, and be mindful of others where appropriate" - like most things concerning RP! I can agree on that much, anyway.

I second many here regarding use of profanities simply because 'my guy doesn't', and whereas I can see how abundant use might kind of 'remove from the experience' of some, I can see how it might also add to the experience of others.

Can I just say thanks for this really insightful thread? It's given me plenty to think about, and has been really intriguing to discuss! Laugh

-no longer matters- · **11-17-2015, 01:38 PM**

I play a character that can be pretty lewd in terms of Spech as Oli has already pointed out those words are much older than people think, and have had a lot of the same context for a very very long time as well.

If for some reason you don't want to RP with me because, my character is a street urchin and speaks much like someone who lived a hard life on the streets (Crass language, lacking the best manners, etc.) then it may be best to avoid me and others that have similar characters all together.

Also the language I use does not place me from light to heavy roleplayer, nor does typos The time you spend IC is what places you from Light to Heavy.

As Virella pointed out you also have the option to turn your profanity filter back on.

That said there's so many varying speech patterns in this game and terms that don't match the settings "Time Table" if you were to try to compare it to our own. So being prudent about speach patterns as long as someone isn't talking like a Ninja Turtle is a bit finicky.

Aaron · **11-17-2015, 01:45 PM**

I use real curse words in game . Haven't got a complaint and i've done it for months .

Then again think about it, how would -you- look like telling a random a curse words not lore accurate ?

Exactly , you're better of just rolling with the thunder imo.

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[NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes