RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Eva · **04-15-2013, 11:14 AM**

Looks great!! Thumbsup

I have one [hopefully quick] question. I saw this note under the page for NPC's:

Quote:This section is NOT for "NPCs" in your character storylines, as they are still considered "Player Characters."

I have been considering, after updating Eva's page, adding a few pages for a couple of the NPC's that exist in her backstory or elsewhere: her father, her former boss, her late fiancÃ©, etc. Is there a setting that can be toggled to prevent these from appearing on the "Player Characters" list or is that something that could be amended (something like Player NPC's maybe?) or alternately how do you think this would most eloquently be handled. Thanks in advance!

Kerr · **04-15-2013, 11:44 AM**

(04-15-2013, 11:14 AM)Eva Wrote: I have been considering, after updating Eva's page, adding a few pages for a couple of the NPC's that exist in her backstory or elsewhere: Â her father, her former boss, her late fiancÃ©, etc. Â Is there a setting that can be toggled to prevent these from appearing on the "Player Characters" list or is that something that could be amended (something like Player NPC's maybe?) or alternately how do you think this would most eloquently be handled. Â Thanks in advance!

^^ This. I was also wondering about something like this as well. Is there a way for alts or persons relevant to our Main's to have a page but not show up in the PC categories?? How would something like this work or what would you Wiki Masters recommend we do in these cases?

Deirdre · **04-15-2013, 07:36 PM**

(04-15-2013, 11:14 AM)Eva Wrote: Looks great!!

I have one [hopefully quick] question. I saw this note under the page for NPC's:

Quote:This section is NOT for "NPCs" in your character storylines, as they are still considered "Player Characters."

I have been considering, after updating Eva's page, adding a few pages for a couple of the NPC's that exist in her backstory or elsewhere: her father, her former boss, her late fiancÃ©, etc. Is there a setting that can be toggled to prevent these from appearing on the "Player Characters" list or is that something that could be amended (something like Player NPC's maybe?) or alternately how do you think this would most eloquently be handled. Thanks in advance!

(04-15-2013, 11:44 AM)Kerr Wrote: ^^ This. I was also wondering about something like this as well. Is there a way for alts or persons relevant to our Main's to have a page but not show up in the PC categories?? How would something like this work or what would you Wiki Masters recommend we do in these cases?

I thought something like this might come up, which is why I put that note there.

If Story NPC's (As in the characters that are NPC's in your storyline) are added along with the Player characters, things are going to look terrible and confusing, people will not know who is who.
Now, if they are added to the NPC's, then there is also the confusion as to what is in game (since the current list of NPC's is going to explode once 2.0 is released) and what is RP'd. There is unfortunately no toggle option for either.

Another option that may be looked in to is the possibility of having a separate section for NPC's within storyline.

The biggest problem I know will come up with it is usage and maintenance. We don't want to be creating pages people will not use and create the clutter of the last wiki. It's hard enough to get people to update their own wikis, many people are not going to bother updating extra pages like NPC's in their storyline. And really, why make an extra page if it's just a short little blurb about the character?

For now, I think if you are making character NPC's that you will not be roleplaying on a heavy basis (If you are roleplaying them actively, then it should be labeled an alt, and therefore made under the 'Player Characters') then maybe write a little biography for that character in your own characters wiki, to keep things organized.

Rhio · **04-15-2013, 08:39 PM**

Great work, wiki team! I am suitably impressed.

Eva · **04-15-2013, 09:23 PM**

I would think a separate "storyline NPC" section would make a good deal of sense. I suspect these will be more than little blurbs about supporting characters - at least the characters I'm thinking of have had a lot of life breathed into them. I also felt this might come with the advantage that some PC's share a common bond with certain storyline NPC's and that NPC might have a sort of "shared ownership" and its wiki page updated by both/all involved parties.

I'm also not sure it necessarily would need its own section (not sure why anyone would want to look up a list of everyone's storyline NPC's) but some sort of a tag or something that would keep it off the list of Playing Characters or a little notation at the top of the page to indicate that this is not an actual PC.

I admit I don't know too much about structuring a wiki and the extent of what I've done is just creating/updating my own character page thus far. If this is not something that is really feasible, I suppose I can just put the relevant information under spoiler tags for the sake of keeping the page itself clean.

Deirdre · **04-15-2013, 09:36 PM**

(04-15-2013, 09:23 PM)Eva Wrote: I would think a separate "storyline NPC" section would make a good deal of sense. I suspect these will be more than little blurbs about supporting characters - at least the characters I'm thinking of have had a lot of life breathed into them. I also felt this might come with the advantage that some PC's share a common bond with certain storyline NPC's and that NPC might have a sort of "shared ownership" and its wiki page updated by both/all involved parties.

I'm also not sure it necessarily would need its own section (not sure why anyone would want to look up a list of everyone's storyline NPC's) but some sort of a tag or something that would keep it off the list of Playing Characters or a little notation at the top of the page to indicate that this is not an actual PC.

I admit I don't know too much about structuring a wiki and the extent of what I've done is just creating/updating my own character page thus far. If this is not something that is really feasible, I suppose I can just put the relevant information under spoiler tags for the sake of keeping the page itself clean.

If it's just tags (for example like how a page is tagged as 'female') then there is no point to it either. This is only creating stray, loose pages that don't have any real categorization. That's not something we want in the wiki, as it will become chaotic again.

To make it feasible at all it would have to be organized in it's own page, but again I only see a few people (like maybe Kylin, with a long list of story NPC's) making legitimate use of it. It's understandable a few people would make use of it, but because a few people would make use of it does not really warrant making a whole new section for such a thing. Again, people have troubles updating their own wiki's having another section like this I feel is just going to get to the point of stagnation.

Personally, I keep the descriptions of my story NPC's in my profile. The paragraph has enough in it that people are curious, and enough depth that people understand what I'm getting at.
In theory I think it's a great idea, but I really see a very limited amount of people actually making use of this. It seems like there would just be more pages for people to get lost in, as opposed to the imformation being right there about your character, and your story.

Eva · **04-15-2013, 09:43 PM**

Perhaps put it to a vote and see if maybe more than a few of us would make use of it? Â I really don't see the harm to be honest and would prefer to avoid nested spoiler tags on my page if at all possible.

Moltove · **04-15-2013, 11:16 PM**

*puts a foot in the door* Not to side with anyone, but I never really noticed how bad the disorganized Wiki was until I pawed through it quite a bit the other day. Yikes.

I'm sort of in favor for keeping PC-NPC's just a blurb on our main profiles. I can see the need for a separate page for them, as we all go through our character's histories at varying levels, however at the same time, I remember only once clicking on a NPC page, off of Kylins, then immediately hit my back button, as I figured it would take me hours to get through =P

After that I guess I haven't really clicked on others PC-NPC things. Mostly out of uninterestedness as most of them are unavailable and won't be used in a story arc for that character (except for Kylin's crazy family).

But perhaps there could be either a compromise or fix in the future?

Deirdre · **04-18-2013, 03:48 PM**

The poll was closed yesterday, voting pretty much finished the day before, and the results are in.

Of 36 voters, 11 (30.56%) wished for a PC NPC page on the wiki, and 25 (69.44%) did not. I do not believe that is a high enough percentage to add something like that to the wiki, and so we will refrain from doing so.

Other Alternatives to Separate Pages for Non-Alt PC NPC's

Spoiler Tags: Contain long paragraphs of information within spoiler tags to avoid wiki clutter.
Creative Content Organization: There are plenty of ways to code a wiki for content organization. Please google 'wiki formatting code' or check the helpful links on the wiki.
Parsing Down Data: A PC NPC plays a small roll, if possible parse down data for the wiki and keep other data for possible inquiry in to the character, if made.

Thank you everyone who voted and commented for your feedback.

Gerik · **04-18-2013, 04:45 PM**

I dunno, I think 30% of the people who voted is kinda significant. I mean, if it can be done easily and without much inconvinience, why not? But I don't know much about coding.

Blade · **04-18-2013, 04:59 PM**

Would it be possible to maybe run a different poll? Maybe one asking something along the lines of if people would specifically be opposed to adding a section for NPCs?

I could foresee a situation where, for example, someone might be in favor of having a section like this, without intending to use that situation for their own character. Given that we're trying to keep the quality of pages up, someone who focuses mostly on their main character and less on alts and storyline NPCs, might not use this feature. They might, however, still be reading about other people's NPCs, which would drive the number of people in favor up.

I imagine that there would be more people okay with adding this as a category than those who would actively use it, much like I imagine more people would favor having a lore section on the wiki, than those who would contribute articles to it.

Aysun · **04-18-2013, 05:13 PM**

Redacted - Kylin and Blade have said it better.

Yssen · **04-18-2013, 05:20 PM**

30% is still a minority all things considered. While I do think it would be nice read about NPCs of all sorts, I am not sure that they deserve their own wiki pages. The stories we are telling are not about them. They are about our individual characters.

For example, I like Ysa. She is interesting to portray, and the crazy as hell head space she lives in is interesting. She does not, however, deserve her own wiki page. I think that the wiki will become a bit cluttered if we were to have pages dedicated to each individual NPC we as players happen to create. I have one exception to this. I think that pages dedicated to NPC organizations or groups that have been created collaboratively and have effects on a significant number of PCs across the community would be fine. (Though this can be accomplished by using the literature section of the current wiki.) The vote is taken and done. We should accept the results as they currently stand. There is nothing really to be gained, but unnecessary division by overreacting simply because the vote did not go the way we as individuals may have liked.

-Yssen

Kylin · **04-18-2013, 05:24 PM**

I've promised myself to largely stay out of this debate for fear of being accused of showing favoritism to one side over another. I have my own personal opinion, but I really don't want to focus on that aspect. I've kind of been caught in the middle of this though (lots of chats in the background) and so I decided to leave some words of wisdom about the greater scheme of things. After all, I'm starting to see the past repeat itself in a way. Anyone can take this 'wisdom' or leave it, as I won't overrule any decision made either way. But I think people should hear this at the very least...

Once upon a time 3 years ago, the RPC was ruled by an RPC Council and a Charter. Everything was decided by majority vote. And by everything, I mean just about everything. There were polls to hold polls and end polls. Any amendment to the charter required a poll. If the RPC had a bathroom, we'd likely have had a poll as to what brand of toilet paper to use. As with any community, there was a minority that often got overlooked as a result of these ruling polls. This minority eventually got fed up with feeling like outcasts and, sadly, left the RPC and never looked back. Some of these RPers still exist today and even now look at the RPC with contempt because of the past. One can easily make the statement that those people 'need to get over it.' And while I agree with that to an extent, one can't hold them at total fault for their bitterness. It's only human nature after all. They felt like they didn't belong and that the RPC wasn't inclusive of all the different styles and beliefs like it promoted itself to be. Perhaps this was true, perhaps not. One can make the argument either way.

Fast-forward three years. The people who left because of those feelings have still not returned (despite returning to the game and RP in general), and may never return to the larger FFXIV RP community ever again, regardless of the vast changes that have been made since their departure. They still remember the past RPC not representing their needs and wants, and they want no part of that entity. This is sad, because some of these individuals are incredibly talented artists, writers, and Rpers who would have the ability to take the RPC to even new heights than it's already reached.

What's my point in all this? Sometimes, 'majority rule' isn't always the best option. Sometimes, it's perfectly fine to accommodate the minority without at all negatively impacting the majority. The end result is everyone being happy and getting what they want out of the community. I've already heard several people question whether they want to continue to support the wiki at all. That's not something I like to hear. And it's not healthy for the community that people feel that way at all :/. The minority is already being pushed away and history is slowly repeating itself. Do we really want to repeat the mistakes of the past? Just to satisfy personal beliefs as to how something that doesn't have a huge impact on the overall population should/should not be? I've learned over the years that there's usually more than enough room to accommodate most RPers. Sure, there are some circumstances where demands can't be met. But when the demands can be met without any real negative impact, why not go for it and make the minority feel like they still belong? There's already been some degree of a rift growing between certain sectors of the RP community and even something as small as this debate seems to be causing that rift to grow.

Just something to think about...

Blade · **04-18-2013, 05:39 PM**

(04-18-2013, 05:20 PM)Yssen Wrote: 30% is still a minority all things considered. While I do think it would be nice read about NPCs of all sorts, I am not sure that they deserve their own wiki pages. The stories we are telling are not about them. They are about our individual characters.

For example, I like Ysa. She is interesting to portray, and the crazy as hell head space she lives in is interesting. She does not, however, deserve her own wiki page. I think that the wiki will become a bit cluttered if we were to have pages dedicated to each individual NPC we as players happen to create. I have one exception to this. I think that pages dedicated to NPC organizations or groups that have been created collaboratively and have effects on a significant number of PCs across the community would be fine. (Though this can be accomplished by using the literature section of the current wiki.) The vote is taken and done. We should accept the results as they currently stand. There is nothing really to be gained, but unnecessary division by overreacting simply because the vote did not go the way we as individuals may have liked.

-Yssen

The poll was to see how many would use it. It wasn't a poll to determine overall people in favor or against the idea. As I said, I doubt 30% of the RPers will contribute to each individual lore section. But it is still important for that section to be there, as it might find benefit to greater than those 30% who are the ones editing it.

In general, wikis work on the basis of a minority of writers, who write for the majority's benefit. This is the case for just about any large wiki. These are the numbers that I feel should have been expected, for something that would've been used.

I don't think people are planning to make a page for every single one of their NPCs, either. So NPCs are worth only mentioning, others might have their own significant stories, etc, that would merit elaboration.

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