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Skye Noctis · **07-27-2017, 03:57 AM**

Heya folks Smile

Â I have been playing this game for roughly half a year, still levellingÂ slowly to reach the StormBlood areas. So I really only had the time to observe the random RP in Ul'dah Inn and passing groups for a minute each.Â

I have been having this character really since HW release because I had ARR trial and HW gifted during its launch and made a character. Which then played very briefly before leaving it to dust for years, which only recently putting my hands on to this game.

So I went to ask questions, only to be a little disappointedÂ due to the fact that the community mainly revolves around "parking" RP and all of them being the good guys. Which makes random public RP a bit boring without any conflict that can cause interesting RP for character development. There are FC that allow "villains", but that's about it. I really like my social FC that I am right now, have put a lot of effort and dedication into it to change for a RP one.Â
I am mentioning this, only because mine and my friend's characters aren't holy souls, not good guys at all, as if they can be violent if provoked but totally can be in a social community when comes to specific circumstances peacefully. Â (I RPd for years in other games being the good guys, and I got bored of it eventually hence the character'sÂ alignment of choice)Â

So I need a little bit further insight about this matter, to if the information given was true and possibly more that I'm missing.

Lydia Lightfoot · **07-27-2017, 05:00 AM**

The issue mainly arises in the lack of tangible consequences which can be forced upon villainous characters. In any realistic circumstance, most people who do wrong onto others get what's coming to them sooner or later (be it by the law, or merely just by somebody who's fed up with them taking it upon themselves). Note I said most - I'm sure we can all think of examples of some pretty terrible people (or petty crooks, perhaps) who flew under the radar and never managed to get caught.Â

So we're presented with one of two possible outcomes for the villainous character: A) They're going to get caught eventually, or B) They're going to manage to never be caught.Â

If it's B, this will probably only happen if the character is very, very intelligently played (rare - and that's no insult to you or anybody else; the top reason most actual intelligent criminals end up getting caught too is that it's just really very difficult to plan out flawless heists every single time), or the character is very, very lucky (in which case, expect other players to call foul on it, because nobody likes to be told over and over, "sorry, my villain slipped your grasp by luck again"), or, the player is pretty much god-moding (e.g., no matter what the good guys post that they're trying to do to capture the villain, the villain slips their grappling attempts, parries their blows, and then posts throwing a smokebomb and disappearing without letting anyone try to react at all, etc.).Â

In other words, B is just a very unlikely situation to keep plausible over time. So let's look at A.

Could the character, if caught, manage to get free? Sure, that's possible - but it gets tricky, because if it's said to be happening of NPCs (for example, escaped from a Maelstrom prison, or bribed one of the guards to be set free, or knows someone on the judges' panel and was able to blackmail their way into an innocent verdict, and so on), then doing it more than once or twice basically pushes the character into B territory in a hurry (in particular, the "very very lucky" or "god-moding" camp).Â

So, next branch - caught, and can't escape. What happens then? Well, in most pre-modern societies, even moderate villainy is punished by a short drop with a sudden stop - in other words, execution. But, to be fair, even a prison sentence of a mere year would basically mean the character is rendered unplayable during that timeframe, so what's their player to do, either way? Fantasia and rename? Well, there's $20 spent. So, is the newly repurposed character also a villain? Cool, let's take bets on how long it takes for it to cost another $20. And another. And another.

Your mileage may vary, but my own experience is that most villain characters end up falling somewhere into category B, and usually the lucky or godmoding results. The player just flat out refuses to accept any kind of consequences for the character's villainy, and if the issue is pressed, they'll force their side of it by just blacklisting the heroes and moving right along.Â

So, what's to be done for conflict? Well, many roleplayers make use of NPCs, who may be visibly imaginary in the game, and the players simply post on their behalf as if they were there. That way, when the story arc comes to a close and the goods have cornered Iron Toe Joe in his lair, if ol' Joe ends up dead or hauled off to the Wood Wailers to spend his days in a cell thereafter, nobody's out any money over it.

Skye Noctis · **07-27-2017, 05:24 AM**

(07-27-2017, 05:00 AM)Lydia Lightfoot Wrote: The issue mainly arises in the lack of tangible consequences which can be forced upon villainous characters.
(...)
That way, when the story arc comes to a close and the goods have cornered Iron Toe Joe in his lair, if ol' Joe ends up dead or hauled off to the Wood Wailers to spend his days in a cell thereafter, nobody's out any money over it.

Alright, I see from that point of view.
But I only seem to see that both sides of the coin seem quite extreme? Â The villain god-modes (Sweet Mary Deliver me from God-Modders Surprise

) and punishment is execution or permanent jail time. Â Which either of those seemÂ to be very unfun already in RP.
Don't people like just accept the consequences of the fight (ex: stab wound) and be in jail for said a crime for a day or two / a warning from the guard for causing a bar fight?Â

Killing someone I'd say would only be accepted with player's permission, so you would pretty much expect in RP is mugging or bruising fights from a dispute.

These are the examples that I am worried about that people may take way over the top.

Lydia Lightfoot · **07-27-2017, 05:34 AM**

A bar fight, maybe - but plenty of people do roleplay bar fights, and true to form, nobody goes off to the gallows over it. That's also not exactly villainy, though. However, backstories have to come into play, too, at some point: If a barfight broke out at the Carline Canopy (the inn at Gridania), there's no rational reason why the Wood Wailers wouldn't be swarming the place in a matter of minutes. Players just tend to forget about the existence of NPC policing forces because we can't tangibly summon them present. So, the wailers show up, and this one barfight fellow happened to be a wanted man due to a bunch of background stuff (plenty of characters have this kind of background). So in a circumstance like that, it's entirely reasonable that a character might get long-term jailed or executed by the authorities merely for being involved in a barfight (because said barfight brought them under the eye of the law, and they had existing warrants).

You hit the nail on the head when you said "...either of those seemÂ to be very unfun already in RP." That's exactly why players of villain characters often just choose not to accept consequences, but, this leads to players of heroes not wanting to RP with them, because of the whole "it comes across as god-moding to never accept consequences" thing.

On the other hand... devil's advocate here... loads and loads of heroic players also wouldn't accept it if their character got a serious injury or killed, or were kidnapped by a villain and imprisoned forever in an oubliette. So, to be clear, I'm not specifically picking on players who play villains. It's a consistent issue across the board. Like I mentioned in the first post, it's the key reason why there just isn't often a lot of character-versus-character conflict (at least beyond the extent of some fisticuffs). Good guy or bad guy, players aren't willing to accept the outcome.Â

Perhaps more importantly, who's to say that the method of arriving at said outcome was fair? Did we do random rolls? Great, but were the characters actually dead-even equals at fighting, or should one of them have somehow had an advantage on the rolling? Did we write it out, and one player was more accepting of taking hits than the other? I've seen players end up with their heads on fire trying to debate this kind of thing...Â Sad

Skye Noctis · **07-27-2017, 05:47 AM**

So on either case if a guard catches the trouble maker, it is always perma jail time?

I hope that I am understanding it wrong because through out few other games thatÂ Ive tried to rp, that is by far the harshest punishment I've run in toÂ Huh

Otherwise, I am always happy to accept the consequences good guy or not. It has gotta make sense as long both parties agree and I make sure to communicate my decision OOCly before taking any action to offer best RP experience for both.

I think that debates happen on every RP community when comes to the degree of power in RP, its unavoidable.

Just really hoping that I can bring out my character and make her grow through out each RP experience in this game, without just parking against the wall and talk about heroic-monster-killing and daisies. (if you get what I meanÂ Big Grin

Â )

Kaiverta · **07-27-2017, 06:37 AM**

I wouldn't mind if my good guy character got captured, as long as the roleplay leading up to said capture actually made sense and it seemed feasible (and I am SO not a godmodder, let me reassure <3), and being captured didn't result in severely limited RP time (like if there was RP with the capturer and/or his lackeys that was roughly similar in amount to the RP I'd be getting while free with my good guy friends, then it's acceptable).

When it comes to one character controlling another, i.e capturing and holding prisoner, that's when a tiny bit of planning or 'guidelines' sometimes need to be put in place.

Gegenji · **07-27-2017, 08:26 AM**

Technically another issue I've heard regarding people who play villainous characters it that they're kinda forced to pick and choose where and when they do their villainy. Obviously, that makes sense, but... even something as simple as lifting someone's gil pouch in the Quicksand could apparently be dangerous. Not because of the inherent IC danger of thievery... but the overwhelming counter-response.

There's a bunch of people who are playing heroic characters (or, at least, heroic in their own minds), and what better way to show off their great heroism than stopping a bandit or villain in their tracks? So, not only is there the risk of the villain being godmoded at (ex. every hero in the room apparently seeing this stealthy theft, them grabbing you mid-theft or pinning you on your escape without giving you a chance to react)... but just the chance of being mobbed by all the hero-type characters out to show off how heroic they are.

So, yeah. Apparently another reason there aren't too many publicly active villain characters is because they'll get hero-mobbed. Tonberry

... but to keep things on the lighter side, there's nothing keeping you from being able to play a villainous character. One of my Lalafells - Gogon - actually had a big ol' villain arc a while back, and is still one of those "darker" types who is willing to use coercion and underhanded deals and whatnot to get the results he wants. It's just something you plan and likely get a group together to have happen, rather than trying for some open-world villainy.

You want a good example of someone else's villain, Roen and them had a villain-ish character named Taeros and that had a really interesting plot going on that I followed from the outside via their forum posts.

Heemi · **07-27-2017, 08:30 AM**

Lydia, please lighten up. This person seems new and you're obviously scaring them.

Everything she said aside, people are generally willing to work with you if you plan things out OOCly in advance so everyone can get sorted before the situation actually happens, and there are no toes stepped on. If you plan for the villain to get out after a week or so in jail, then the heroes can't complain without seeming like assholes.

Kaiverta · **07-27-2017, 08:40 AM**

(07-27-2017, 08:30 AM)Jajape Jape Wrote: Lydia, please lighten up. This person seems new and you're obviously scaring them.

Everything she said aside, people are generally willing to work with you if you plan things out OOCly in advance so everyone can get sorted before the situation actually happens, and there are no toes stepped on. If you plan for the villain to get out after a week or so in jail, then the heroes can't complain without seeming like assholes.

One character of mine got into an impromptu fight in a public space on a game I was playing, and he ended up injured enough that the bad guys were able to capture him, but I lay down rules (as did the bad guys) that we all agreed on to keep things being fun:

Must have some RP, not just sit without RP for the entire time of capture
No molestation (don't ask - just one of those 'just in case' things)
No severing of limbs lol >>
And only a month's capture

In the end it didn't happen due to another player's nonsense, but yeah. Planning things in that regard is a good thing to do.

Erah'sae · **07-27-2017, 08:42 AM**

I think the best way someone put it about playing an antagonist. Â (Alignment really doesn't matter, you've just got protagonists, antagonists and supporting casts for stories)

An antagonists's purpose in a story is to enhance the story of the protagonist. Â

There are groups where the protagonists are 'villains' but they're generally publicly low key, out of the public eye villainy. Â Their internal stories tend to revolve around achieving goals or avoiding the heroes (antagonists) etc.

I'll post again later on some of the types of issues with types of antagonists in open RP in a bit, but I've got to dart off to work first and get things settled.

Molgo Meringo · **07-27-2017, 09:03 AM**

(07-27-2017, 05:47 AM)Skye Noctis Wrote: So on either case if a guard catches the trouble maker, it is always perma jail time?

I hope that I am understanding it wrong because through out few other games thatÂ Ive tried to rp, that is by far the harshest punishment I've run in toÂ

Otherwise, I am always happy to accept the consequences good guy or not. It has gotta make sense as long both parties agree and I make sure to communicate my decision OOCly before taking any action to offer best RP experience for both.

I think that debates happen on every RP community when comes to the degree of power in RP, its unavoidable.

Just really hoping that I can bring out my character and make her grow through out each RP experience in this game, without just parking against the wall and talk about heroic-monster-killing and daisies. (if you get what I meanÂ Â )

To clarify, I don't think Lydia is stating what currently does happen in RP here, but rather what would happen if we apply the standard laws and rules of Eorzea to our RP situations. And that's what makes it so difficult if you want to be a bad guy whilst being able to enjoy yourself and provide enjoyment for others - I mean that's pretty much what we're all trying to do, right?!

There's an extra issue in that we can't just create throwaway characters here on Balmung as everything is restricted. So if you have one character here then any extreme consequences (jail time, execution) become tricky to RP unless you start dropping some cash on the issue, as Lydia mentioned.

HOWEVER, you seem like you're familiar with RP and you don't seem keen to be the reincarnation of Bahamut in the form of one of the playable races... so I think there's definitely room for you to be a bad guy/gal without instantly getting your head liberated from your shoulders.

In WoW the server I played on had an incompetent (and very corrupt) City Watch, meaning that career criminals often escaped or bribed their way to an innocent verdict - but that was something that it took a long time to build, and the majority of RPers on the server went along with it and sort of suspended their disbelief with regards to the presence of the guards in the city.

I think the answer here (as some others have mentioned) is about who you RP with, where you choose to do it and the consequences you, and they, are comfortable with. It's not easy to be a bad guy, and that's why so few people do it, and even fewer do it well, but I think it is doable as long as you're mindful of the players around you and some of the 'realism' aspects within the world that Lydia pointed out.

Valence · **07-27-2017, 09:34 AM**

I don't quite get why would "villainous" characters have to systematically be A) Caught or B) Escape law.

This seems to me to stem from a very black and white, goodey two shoes view of society and the world we live in, even if said world is Eorzea. No, especially if said world is Eorzea, which is supposed to be a violent, often unfair world.Â

Are we speaking about a psychopathic serial murderer? A voidsent summoning rotten thaumaturge? Well okay, sure. Nobody wants to be around such types. And those characters only exist as true opposites, antagonists for the sake of enhancing protagonists as said above.

But in the majority of case, what about a craven? A weak willed thief? Your run of the mill curthroat? A merc with grey morals? A ruthless bounty hunter? A crooked politician? Why would those have to automatically be subject to some kind of fate dooming them to be eventually ending their lives in prison or dead, or just evading whatever is supposed to be after them?

So, what about all those shades of grey? Why would someone like Lolorito (don't tell me he isn't portrayed a villainous character) would have to be doomed from the beginning?Â

It boils down to the view people tend to have on society and Eorzea. Or everything else for that matter. We are ingrained by movies, novels, books, stories, that most of the time "end well" with good endings. Well, the world isn't like that. Bad stuff happens. Bad guys don't always get "caught". Lots of petty crimes especially, get unnoticed, or even condoned by the society itself. The 5 Eorzean city states are perfect examples of that. The world is grey. People tending toward black aren't necessarily going to be doomed more than someone tending more to the white.

Pure evil characters as I said above? Yeah. Pure white knights might have troubles at times too by the way, but it's not always told because most people play good aligned characters, in stories that often have to end well for them. Those radical white knights tend to be more inconspicuous due to that, but otherwise, extremes tend to shorten the lives of their characters.

More generally, depending on the world you play in, you can place it on a scale ranging from dystopia to utopia. Naturally, good aligned characters would have a harder time in the former, while villains a harder time in the later. Eorzea is probably more on the side of good than bad, but it still remains pretty grey.

I'm saying that as someone that plays a character that is neither good nor bad. Especially not evil (very selfish and anarchist) but her views can vary a great deal from your common adventurer. It has placed me in positions where my character can get dogpiled on heavily by all the party or other characters because they all are good, brave eorzeans. You know, the common trope of playing a rogue in a party of paladins and clerics.

It can be tedious, and pretty demeaning to the character's image for other players since they are pitted against your character and can often see her/him as someone despicable that they don't like.

This vicious circle is incidentally one of the other reasons why most grey characters tend to die out, or just gather in specifically dark or grey FCs/groups.

Erah'sae · **07-27-2017, 09:44 AM**

Now the brass tacks.

Given the IP stated this was for 'public random RP' you have a conundrum. Â It sounds like you are wanting public random antagonistic RP. Â There are many different types of antagonists and all of them have differing levels of issues when faced with the public.

The most banal of these are what my circle has started to dub "stupid evil". Â There's another saying that goes along with this Â "stupid gets you dead." Â These are your more cartoon character levels of evil. Â "I'm going to burn down your bar" or "I'm going to beat up these people." Â That sort of level of banal evil has an issue; Â there is no way to sustain this without invalidating the stories of the 'good guys'. Â If an antagonist of this sort keeps showing up, getting caught, showing up again to rinse / wash / repeat, the only real purpose of this sort of antagonist is to portray the incompetence of the protagonists, or the failings of a system. Â Both of these eventually end up with the protagonists becoming more and more harsh in an attempt to permanently resolve the story or ignoring the antagonist as if they don't exist. Â

Most 'random open RP' villainy, sadly, ends up falling into the above category.

To use Gegenji's 'overwhelming counter response' example of nicking someone's gil pouch in the quicksand getting extreme level so of counter play, this is absolutely expected. Â If you're at at the mall, and someone points and yells at someone running off with "He stole my purse!" you can expect, at the least a good portion of people to get involved if there's no real reasonable risk of personal harm. Â In MMO's you have the added issue that most players are well seasoned combatants so have less fear of personal harm (for whatever reason). Â To not attempt to assist would be to break character for them.

You kind of have to plan around stuff like this. Â To really put people on about this, you need to exert a level of OOC control. Â The simplest example of this is to plant your own target instead of picking someone random.

An example using the same set up that could work. Â RP out bumping into them. Â Apologizing, what have you, maybe spill your drink on yourself, as a distraction / excuse for rushing off. Â Give it a good 5-10 minutes and then have that person declare their coin-purse has been stolen. Â Some people will put two and two together, but you're gone. Â Repeat this process several times with other OOCly willing participants and you may start getting a reputation and congratulations, you're now in a good place to start a story for any who are interested in investigating but without being caught blatantly red handed.

Eventually the antagonist would need to get caught, or the goods returned somehow or the story serves no purposes but to distract from RP already going on.

Then you have the subtle evils / villainy. Â These are beautiful. Â These tent to be more 'supporting cast' than antagonists. Â There are several FC's which entirely fall into this area. Â

Again, Gegeenji mentioned something about this as well. Â These are the manipulators, the 'fixers' the 'problem solvers'. Â From your Rumpelstiltskins, to your politicians, to your corrupt Yellow Jackets, these are those that enhance others stories but with a twist or an unexpected cost. Â Something to further their own gains while not directly acting themselves. Â It has it's own world of issues esp today but I'm out of time for the moment so I'll have to deal with that later.

Kaiverta · **07-27-2017, 09:48 AM**

Well said.

Erah'sae · **07-27-2017, 10:01 AM**

(07-27-2017, 09:34 AM)Valence Wrote: Well, the world isn't like that. Bad stuff happens. Bad guys don't always get "caught". Lots of petty crimes especially, get unnoticed, or even condoned by the society itself. The 5 Eorzean city states are perfect examples of that. The world is grey. People tending toward black aren't necessarily going to be doomed more than someone tending more to the white.

...

So, what about all those shades of grey? Why would someone like Lolorito (don't tell me he isn't portrayed a villainous character) would have to be doomed from the beginning?Â

((other rather interesting stuff from Valance cut, I'm just not quoting it all because it's a long but well constructed post. Â Go read it.))

The problem with comparing this to open RP is open RP is there to get noticed. Â If petty crime open RP happens and doesn't draw a response, what is the point other then chest beating? Once a direct action draws a response, a story begs a resolution.

Lolorito is a grand example of a 'good' kind of antagonist to play. Â He rarely acts overtly, he manipulates situations to his own end. Â If he stays subtle there'll be a lot of grumbling about him but nothing actionable. Â Because he doesn't drop to the level of 'stupid evil' he doesn't warrant a direct punitive response. Â In fact he's positioned himself to where a direct response would probably have the actor fall on the wrong side of the law.

Lolorito is the best sort of example of a RP-able antagonist. Â I wish I'd have thought to mention him in my earlier post.

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