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Akeno Asukai · **12-11-2017, 06:20 PM**

Now, I know this is a topic which has popped up in a number of circles and games -- as espionage, spying and gossip are often pretty popular around role-play communities. With this topic, comes the "time-old question" of: how should one proceed to eavesdrop on a public conversation?

I've had several interactions with characters I've spied on in the past as well as characters spying on myself. In some other games -- such as WoW -- the issue is generally resolved with simple game mechanics such as Stealth; unfortunately, XIV does not offer much for a "true" stealth and I've encountered loads of people who will still see you.Â
Â Â Â My inquiry is in regards to what people consider proper etiquette for spying on someone in a public venue. I've had several instances where people have altered their conversation/behavior when alerted OOCly to my eavesdropping as well as ICly to an emote stating that I am eavesdropping. This has caused me to often disregard this when faced with public settings however, I will walk closer to targets or simply move to stand nearby -- so as to give a more reasonable hearing range.Â

What I am curious about is how this community feels about eavesdropping withoutÂ emoting or whispering directly that a character is doing such? How does one feel about eavesdropping with an emote onlyÂ and no whisper? How about with a direct OOC whisperÂ regarding the eavesdropping?Â
Â Â Â I'd also like to hear if others have had successful run-ins with people notÂ altering their behavior once they are alerted to someone listening in?Â

Sophia_Grave · **12-11-2017, 06:28 PM**

There's not really a clear answer.

I've RP'd a career spy since 2.0 and I've been met with the entire gamut of responses. Everyone's going to have their own opinion on how it should be handled. It worked best when both parties were aware in my experiences.

Therion The Witch · **12-11-2017, 06:30 PM**

Probably an unpopular opinion...

In my opinion. If your public, outside of a house and saying something in the public.. assume everything you have said CAN and WILL be used against you in the future.

No need to consent to it, you consented to it already by speaking publicly. However that is my personal opinion of it. If you need to ask consent for everything in role-play its no longer role-play.

I notice, that some people have issues with this. However, the problem with that is as soon as you ask they 'go quiet' and stop talking about such sensitive things that could affect their character.

I've even had it where "Hey, can I listen to you?" "Sure." IC: "I think we should go someplace a bit more quiet."

lol.. its like: "Why even roleplay?"

Although Open Roleplay seems rather .. quiet lately i'm afraid. =/

Sophia_Grave · **12-11-2017, 06:58 PM**

(12-11-2017, 06:30 PM)Therion The Witch Wrote: Probably an unpopular opinion...

In my opinion. Â If your public, outside of a house and saying something in the public.. assume everything you have said CAN and WILL be used against you in the future.

No need to consent to it, you consented to it already by speaking publicly. Â However that is my personal opinion of it. Â If you need to ask consent for everything in role-play its no longer role-play.

I notice, that some people have issues with this. Â However, the problem with that is as soon as you ask they 'go quiet' and stop talking about such sensitive things that could affect their character.

I've even had it where "Hey, can I listen to you?" "Sure." IC: "I think we should go someplace a bit more quiet."

lol.. its like: "Why even roleplay?"

Although Open Roleplay seems rather .. quiet lately i'm afraid. Â =/

Well the issue with that is (not that I agree with this response) that not every RP session that happens is considered 'open' and that some people are happy to use locations in the game as private spaces just as a type of 'setting placeholder'. For example, the Pearl Lane is really the only area in the game (among one or two others) that fit the 'shady alley' setting. I personally know people who have used it as such without it actually being the Pearl Lane. I mean, I think that's pretty fair? Some people really like to have a visual setting to stoke their RP creativity. If they didn't, we wouldn't need to RP in the game at all, really.

The point is, you never know the circumstances of an RP session unless you ask and talk to the RPers. That's the challenge with playing any sort of subterfugal character. You're always going to need OOC permission, but you also have to keep it interesting. Outside of that, you'll have to rely on OOC trust that the other person wants the same things out of the experience so you can do what you trying to do, and that's in very short supply when it comes to walkups or RPing with strangers.

Therion The Witch · **12-11-2017, 07:47 PM**

(12-11-2017, 06:58 PM)Sophia_Grave Wrote:
(12-11-2017, 06:30 PM)Therion The Witch Wrote: Probably an unpopular opinion...

In my opinion. Â If your public, outside of a house and saying something in the public.. assume everything you have said CAN and WILL be used against you in the future.

No need to consent to it, you consented to it already by speaking publicly. Â However that is my personal opinion of it. Â If you need to ask consent for everything in role-play its no longer role-play.

I notice, that some people have issues with this. Â However, the problem with that is as soon as you ask they 'go quiet' and stop talking about such sensitive things that could affect their character.

I've even had it where "Hey, can I listen to you?" "Sure." IC: "I think we should go someplace a bit more quiet."

lol.. its like: "Why even roleplay?"

Although Open Roleplay seems rather .. quiet lately i'm afraid. Â =/

______

Well the issue with that is (not that I agree with this response) that not every RP session that happens is considered 'open' and that some people are happy to use locations in the game as private spaces just as a type of 'setting placeholder'. For example, the Pearl Lane is really the only area in the game (among one or two others) that fit the 'shady alley' setting. I personally know people who have used it as such without it actually being the Pearl Lane. I mean, I think that's pretty fair? Some people really like to have a visual setting to stoke their RP creativity. If they didn't, we wouldn't need to RP in the game at all, really.

The point is, you never know the circumstances of an RP session unless you ask and talk to the RPers. That's the challenge with playing any sort of subterfugal character. You're always going to need OOC permission, but you also have to keep it interesting. Outside of that, you'll have to rely on OOC trust that the other person wants the same things out of the experience so you can do what you trying to do, and that's in very short supply when it comes to walkups or RPing with strangers.

_______

I don't see the fun of being a shady or mysterious character if your neither shady nore mysterious. If its not open. Why are they open? They could always RP in group, but that doesn't really draw attention. So your saying a character should publicly role-play in a shady alley but not expect any shady individuals to listen to them or catch wind of what they are saying? That does not sound really like role-playing to me, that just sounds odd. You are playing in a shady alley for a reason right? There are also a few alleys in the Goblet and even all of the districts which seem out of place where a shady individual could hang out. Honestly though, I think one of the biggest disappointments to FFXIV is the cities not being connected to the districts. I would of loved to have inn rooms around the city and it actually feeling more like a player-city. However, these are all opinions.

It is also no different from being in a bar and overhearing people. Even if your not actively spying on them you can still overhear them IC. Should they not expect to be heard? What if you were just listening to them at a bar and came to sit by them? I mean, you might think its different.. but not really. In the end, the consent thing for open role-play is silly at best. I think its mostly due to inexperience that it bother's people. However, I notice a great many people doing less and less open role-play and hiding in districts and houses now or doing only linkshell things. Which is an alright alternative, but it does get rid of a lot of the chaos and randomness that really can make role-playing fun.

Although.. yeah again! OPINION =)

It just reminds me of people role-playing darker characters, and bragging about how dark they are and how much void powers they have. Then when they learn someone found out about it they scream: "WHERE DID YOU GET THAT INFORMATION!!!!!!111 You must have read it off my bio!" Well.. word passes i'm afraid. Maybe you should not have been so obvious? Also the fact that some times people can simply assume and make up things. For example I remember telling a lie about a character IC to get them ICly in-trouble in another game's RP. It caused a sh*tstorm, because my 'lie' ended up being a truthful thing.. weird enough.

Sophia_Grave · **12-11-2017, 08:34 PM**

Well, yea.

We have the whole consent "rule" because the trust isn't there when it comes to walkups. The trust isn't there because RP has no real rules and people do it in very different ways that don't necessarily mix well. In a perfect world, sure, we'd all trust each other to make RP fun for everyone all the time and there's be an appropriate amount of give and take. But that doesn't happen as much as it should and as a result, characters like ours are simply always going to be more difficult to play in that scenario.

And yea, it sucks. Consent is just as abuseable as trust but at least you learn early whether someone is wasting your time rather than finding out halfway through. We all have RP horror stories and have had our time wasted or have been taken advantage of. This is why we can't have nice things.

Erah'sae · **12-14-2017, 09:56 AM**

My take on spying in character.

a.) don't do it unless you have a good IC reason to (this usually means you've interacted with the group before, or are hired by another group they're interacting with, etc.)
b.) don't use game mechanics to hide yourself.Â Don't use the gatherer stealth skill, physically hide behind the tree.
c.) poke folks to askÂ "Hey are you all really there ICly." if it's not a common public spot. (read: if you catch them in the wild at a campsite or some such.)
d.) Emote.Â You need to give some indication that you're physically there and not someone idling around as a non-RPer.Â Â Jot things down, tilt your head or raise your eyebrows in time with something said.Â Â
e.) Suck it up and deal with the repercussions if you're caught.

I tend to prefer open / world RP to closed.Â I'm of the belief that closed "no one should overhear it" RP should be done in private locations, party or non-overhearable methods.Â It's a minimum impact on the open world and the immersion of others thing to me.Â Just really a polite thing to do when in public locations and you don't want your RP to be overheard/interactable with, or taken ICly.Â Â

Open chatter in public places in public channels, to me, is a tacit invitation of interaction, otherwise why bother RPing in the open world?Â Â

But I'm an old fart, so take it with a grain of salt.Â I grew up on the dreams of virtual worlds.Â Dreams which have largely been tossed to the wayside by the masses.

rinlai · **12-14-2017, 11:07 AM**

A lot of people in the RP community have been incredibly pacified to the point of avoiding confrontation or conflict at allllll cost, but still wish to RP characters who are 'evil, or 'shady'. This is a big reason why a lot of people advise wanting 'consent' to eavesdrop into public RP or the like. My take on it is to RP in the world as it would be a world.Â
If someone is spying on you, and you are in public--using text channels that are public, then you don't get to decide if people can spy on you or use what you say against you, if that's how you feel then RP in party chat. When you go Ic, you have to accept that you are entering a world where you aren't in control. If you wish to be 100% in control, then just write a book.

I've dealt a lot in people who RP around darker themes and such, and you can't quite trust people to not meta-game, so when you involve yourself in these things my advice is to always cover yourself as stealthy ooc as you would ic. Do your best to hide yourself from both the character and the player, as it is the only assured way there will be no meta occurring.Â

The ninja skills like stealth are a thing in-game, and people use them often to try to be sneaky and hide in plain sight, but there are various ways to combat this. One being aether, a signature that every living being gives off--if people use tools such as goggles that reveal said aether, then it would penetrate the stealth and reveal a body there (And item that comes to mind is Sharlayan Goggles). In addition, there are things like Flash, or you could crate a bright light source. This bright light source would be cast upon an invisible unit, and display a distinct shadow behind them. If their body cant be seen but still exists, then it'll cast a shadow which can be seen. Also the classic, water; if it's raining or you go to a snowy area or muddy area, you would see their foot prints while in stealth or snow.Â

So even if someone does go full rogue stealth, Ic, there are many tools that can be used to combat that.Â

My ending advice is to simply do it, don't ask and don't worry; play your character as you would in the world and protect yourself from meta both ic and ooc'ly. It's the burden of those who RP in public to acknowledge that they rescind an amount of control over the scene and the characters involved when they do so.

(Also take screenshots and catalog any knowledge you gain while being sneaky, this way you can have proof of your having gained it IC'ly.)

***Teadrinker*** · **12-14-2017, 05:16 PM**

Always communicate OOCly with the person you're spying on. A lot of times just publicly emoting that you're there and present and hearing things won't be enough. Just cover the bases, save yourself a headache.

Warren Castille · **12-14-2017, 05:35 PM**

If you're roleplaying in an open space but don't want to be heard, use /party. If you're roleplaying in an open space but are speaking low enough to not be heard unless someone is right up on you, emote something about talking and then use /whisper. I generally assume that something happening in /say in public is up for grabs and walk-ups.

Eavesdropping is all about intent, though. I'm long on record about a lot of my early roleplaying experience being about power plays and oneupsmanship: Don't sneak around someone just to try and give yourself an advantage without declaring your intention to do that OOC. If you're just using it for an RP hook or something, that's probably fine. I guess my line is this:

Is the information I'm hearing just chatter? Treat it like walk-up roleplay.

Is the information I'm hearing potentially a huge deal, i.e. blackmail material or otherwise dynamic-shifting stuff? Ask first.

I mean, if people are openly talking about how they were sacrificing children to power their demonic ascian powers in a public spot they deserve what they get, but that's just like, my opinion man.

Nako Vesh · **12-14-2017, 09:53 PM**

You can make all the declarations you want about RPing in public being open to, well, public response, but it's not going to stop people from being weird about it. I mean, I agree that if you RP in public you should be ready for walk ups. But people are people, and they're going to be weird and picky about it, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Warren Castille · **12-14-2017, 10:03 PM**

Writing in public and not wanting people to join you isn't roleplay. It's masturbating.

It's a teachable moment.

Edit: Rebuke not aimed at Nako, just the people Nako is describing.

Akeno Asukai · **12-14-2017, 10:47 PM**

So, I've been keeping up in silence on this thread -- reading the responses, tilting my head and thinking of all the semi-useless information I've gathered in the last few days of hanging around in the Quicksand. Yes, the Quicksand. It's a pretty solid hot spot for people boasting about their accomplishments.Â

Now, what I'm getting from the community thus far is that it is still pretty divided however, it would appear (to me at least) that a good portion of the community shares my thoughts: if you're in a public hot spot, using /say and my character is clearly within a reasonable range -- your information is mine. It also seems that while people here aren't necessarily against someone listening in, they do feel that even in public, eavesdropping warrants a response -- whether it be an out of character whisper or an emote directed to the person(s) being watched.

Some points have been brushed over -- such as people being "picky" when it comes to walk-up role-play and it does lead me back to my concerns (which have already happened on Balmung) regarding people who intentionally change their behavior when they know someone is watching them.
Â Â Â I'm willing to chalk this up to a bad experience, but when it's someone who is considered by others (who were close to my character at the time) to be a "major player" and a little unavoidable unless I cut ties in-character with the people specifically linked to this bad experience. How, exactly, does the majority of the community handle this kind of... situation? Do you just abandon the whole eavesdropping on this person? Do you respect their decision and continue to make attempts at eavesdropping on semi-public and public scenarios? I am genuinely curious as to how people prefer toÂ handle these situations -- especially since I have some very public, very unsettling outcomes to this kind of seclusion behavior on other platforms.Â

C'kayah Polaali · **12-14-2017, 11:48 PM**

I've RPed villains in FF since 2.0, and I typically do it publicly. I think it adds to the fun, both for me as the villain having to pay attention to things like who's around, and for the other people around me. It adds flavor. I do expect anything I do or say publicly to be used against me, but this is where it gets into odd territory.

If I want my character to swing a sword at someone, I get to post that they're swinging the sword. I don't get to post what the result is, however. That's up to the other person. That's very well accepted.

But does that only apply to physical fights? Or should it apply to other things? Cops 'n' robbers, off the script, is basically the same as that RP sword fight. It needs to play out - in my opinion - similarly. The spy can use the information they gathered against my character, but it has to happen in that same manner. And this, in my opinion, is why the answer to the question "is communication key?" is yes. Absolutely yes.

At the end of the day, the ideal for RP is that everyone involved in a RP is doing it to make the collective story better. That's why I RP my characters' villainy in public. Likewise, if my character is spying, I'll make some sort of post that at least can indicate that my character is actively there (as opposed to standing still as if I were afk). It makes for a better story. At the same time, we've all probably run into someone who tries to RP to "win". It's one of the reasons why lots of people RP fights resolved with /random - it avoids that possibility in a combat RP. Silent omniscience in a character - whether it's a spy who literally can't be distinguished from an afk person or a villain who decides "no one can spy on me ever" - raises red flags in the same way as a character who always dodges a blow in a fight RP does. OOC communication can mitigate those red flags.

Nako Vesh · **12-15-2017, 08:29 AM**

(12-14-2017, 10:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Writing in public and not wanting people to join you isn't roleplay. It's masturbating.

It's a teachable moment.

Edit: Rebuke not aimed at Nako, just the people Nako is describing.

I get what'chu sayin', but you must have run into far more receptive people than I have! Though I suppose one person in ten learning is better than nothing.

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[Discussion] Spying In Character: Communication is Key?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes