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Eva · **03-22-2010, 12:41 PM**

EDIT: If you don't have the time to read through the entirety of this thread, Faust has come up with a sufficient 4-word summary for everything that follows:

"Don't be a copycat."

Inspired by Mason's inquiry in the other Male M'oquito thread (quoted near the end of this post), I was wondering what sort of cliche storyline elements other folks have seen over the years so we know what we're getting into. It's conceivable that something unique and fresh from one server might be cliche and overdone from another.

I can only speak to Sylph, but I'm interested to see what other servers have seen, gotten tired of, etc.

One of the most cliche storyline elements, at least early on, were demonic possessions (not like Kindred, but like evil spirits). This of course led to a lot of dispute over who was really responsible for crimes committed. It was really only cliche because it was done by 2 or 3 people concurrently fairly early in our LS's history. After that it was somewhat taboo, and the moment someone mentioned 'demons' (again not in the 'Kindred' sense), people groaned and complained. We did have a mass murderer let off a half dozen times for playing the demon card, and for earning various other members' pity. That got pretty old fast too.

Prison breakouts seemed to take a close 2nd, because of course everyone knows that prison is easy to break out of, and while it's super cool to get incarcerated, once you're behind those bars it's pretty lousy RP. We had gone through a phase where we actually banned prison escapes because of this. Seems a little extreme, I know, but it was becoming bandwagon, and the RPers who were helping guard the prisons (myself among these) were getting put off by how ridiculous this trend was becoming.

We had some female characters RPing a full pregnancy out within the span of a week or two, in one instance involving a demon (again, not Kindred).

We had a guy with wings whose wyvern could somehow talk. (this didn't last long)

We had a couple of people who were 1000+ years old (which soon thereafter was regarded by most of the community as, "3000 years old, really? They have a nice padded cell for folks like you.") They continued RPing it, and they were probably the only ones that believed it.

For some odd reason we had a lot of corruption in the San d'Orian cathedral. Apparently San d'Orian priests are often evil or something. Was kind of a bum rap for people that were serious about that sort of RP.

We had a number of half-breeds. My own character was meant to be only half elvaan. This was unique 6 years ago and I had a lot of fun backhistory to go with it. Since that time, I think 6 or 7 others came forward, including one who was a taru-mithra hybrid (which prompted a guideline that hybrids should not involve taru/galka).

There are probably a good dozen or so that I'm not thinking of at the moment which I'm sure others will append, but this is a pretty good sampling of what we'd seen in Crystalline.

Please feel free to share your own experiences!

And to address the original point:

Mason Wrote:What do you guys think about fast restoration? How about constant escapes from prison/guards?

Fast restoration seems plausible as there are curative magic spells and such. Something like a missing limb or other serious injury being cured miraculously might not float, depending on the circumstances. The prison escapes I covered above, and speaking from a personal perspective, RPers should not set out to commit crimes that they would get caught and incarcerated for extended periods of time for without being willing to put that character into 'downtime' for that duration.

Durandal · **03-22-2010, 12:41 PM**

We did have a few Mixed Breeds come and go. It was a pretty passionate subject, in fact. To the point where some characters just chose not to believe the claims of another being mixed. I never had a problem with it, and in fact, my character 'dated' one.

My favorite one though, as witnessed byt eh screenshot I posted in the gallery thread, was the long lost/exiled/ill born/bastard child Heir to the thrown of Sandoria.

**03-22-2010, 12:42 PM**

IMO, it didn't really matter to me how cliche or not something seemed, as long as everyone involved with it was having fun. (:

Eva · **03-22-2010, 12:42 PM**

That was the issue though. A lot of times such overdone (or over-the-top) RP does kill the fun for many of us. Also when an idea is creative and original, and then others jump on the same bandwagon and do the same thing, it sort of trivializes the original concept. I have known people who've gotten extremely irate at having their own unique ideas assimilated (and often subsequently bastardized).

**03-22-2010, 12:43 PM**

It's sad to say that one should pretty much expect their ideas to be taken and rehashed later on, especially if it was involved with a winning formula. Imitation's the highest form of flattery and whatnot, and it's just easier to play along and help out than sit around and be angry about it.

Just me, though.

Eva · **03-22-2010, 12:44 PM**

Some call it the highest form of flattery. Others call it plagiarism. Fine line, I guess.

**03-22-2010, 12:44 PM**

But it's not really plagiarism. D:

Half the things that were listed weren't even cliches, just people with roleplaying styles that weren't very accepted.
Like (admin edit: name removed). He's the only one I know of that had wings and a wyvern that could talk.

Besides, all because you think you're the first to come up with it still doesn't make it not a cliche.
Half-breeds have been a regular thing for the entire fantasy-genre for decades, if I recall correctly.
And there's no guarantee there wasn't someone sitting there looking at your character going 'He decided to do that too? What a bandwagoner'.

I don't like this thread. The whole thing seems like an entirely backhanded way to gossip about people in FFXI, and that's not very nice at all. ):

River · **03-22-2010, 12:45 PM**

A few things that didn't go over real well on Leviathan:

Mixed Breeds (An Elvaan with furry ears and a tail)
Off-planet arrivals; aliens.
Historical/Famous persons[/list:u]

We did approve the following, as long as they were done tastefully:
- Past lives with non-Galka characters
- Long-life (Since we don't know how long certain races lived, some Elvaan or Galka claimed to be over 100.)
- Prison-breakouts
- Spies/Assassins
- Nobility[/list:u]
  
  And I agree that it could be construed that this thread was simply intended to gossip about others. Above, I simply listed what was accepted in my guild and what we had a hard time accepting.

Eva · **03-22-2010, 12:45 PM**

Traydon Wrote:I don't like this thread. The whole thing seems like an entirely backhanded way to gossip about people in FFXI, and that's not very nice at all. ):

This seems to me an overly sensitive response to a legitimate discussion, but I'll defer to forum moderator as to whether this thread should be locked or not. Suffice it to say, I don't think anyone is badmouthing anyone else. I certainly am not. I am pointing out some RP styles that people had complained about in the past. Some styles become cliche more quickly than others. The very first demonic possession we saw was very well done and I think most in the community at the time were impressed by it, until 3 other individuals ran similar plots, and in one instance essentially the exact same thing. While I can't speak for the original RPer, I can understand how he may have been put off by this.

In dealing with this topic, I was actually thinking of an issue with an individual who was RPing a pregnancy over the span of nine months. During this timeframe I believe two other pregnancies occurred and came to completion (one of which resulted in some sort of demon baby but that's neither here nor there). While pregnancy is a naturally occurring phenomenon and any RPer could do it, it felt like others took away from her RP, lessening it by having it span only a few weeks when she was trying to do this. There was also the issue that one of these 'copycats' was particularly rude about it, and would attempt to 'drown out' any RP regarding the pregnancy by immediately bringing up her own. I just recall clearly how livid she was that what she was trying to do was turned into a mockery.

This is very likely going to be an issue we'll have to address eventually, so why not bring it up now?

Nanapariri · **03-22-2010, 12:50 PM**

I've never gone deeply into some of the things I beifly did a similiar Blue Mage type thing, ie the animal bodypart and side effect thing, but it didn't go over very well, and I dropped it when we rebooted and I discovered the "new" or rather current ig Blue Mages were made by a transplanted soul.

Demons etc was the biggest cliche on Asura. I rped with a few but it did get old after awhile and so Sfant Umbra has a no supernatural rule. Besides demons the other reoccuring thing we saw a lot of was immortality of a sort where people kept dieing and being resurrected.

Half-breeds were actually pretty conservative since we had a rule against Half-Taru and Half-Galka in most LS we had since the Lore didn't seem to leave much room for it. As for Elvaan, Hume and Mithra we assumed that was possible but avoided most strange stuff with a simple idea... the child would appear most like the mother with some feature of two of the father excluding tails and fur which was a bit far-fetched for most of us. A good example of this is my character Armonde who is Elvaan/Hume he mostly looks Elvaan accept his ears are shorter.

Kylin · **03-22-2010, 12:51 PM**

This is a very legit thread with very valid concerns. It's not meant to be "bashing" on anyone from FFXI, though I can see how it may be perceived as such. All I'll say is try to avoid so many detailed examples and be more vague with them. Remember that some of the people being described may end up here very soon (if not already) and I don't want any of them to get offended/put off when they see their names pop up in examples.

Back on topic though: Just about everything has been done these days in the world of RPing. It's hard for something not to be considered cliche. It's more a matter of timing and the method of implementation in my opinion. The demon stuff on Sylph, for instance, was just bad timing in that it was all back to back. I've always been okay with mixed breeds too, so long as it was done tastefully (a galka with elvaan ears would be untasteful for example).

Verence · **03-22-2010, 12:52 PM**

Names aren't being named and nobody's being called out. I can see how some people might be uncomfortable with such a thread and I really don't blame them. Such is your right and privilege, and it's a completely understandable viewpoint. That being said, recognize that some of us want to RP our characters in ways that other people may not want to. IE, the wings, the half-dragon, the what-have you. But that sword cuts both ways - How does my character respond appropriately to something that, according to my interpretation of game lore, should not exist and isn't possible?

I'm not saying they shouldn't RP it. They're welcome to. But to maintain the integrity of my character's appropriate worldview and responses, I'm probably going to avoid RPing with them - not out of any judgmental attitude or personal distaste for them, I just simply can't keep RPing my character appropriately as my character if the world he lives suddenly, arbitrarily becomes another simply because of someone he runs into on the street. If a character has wings and they just sort of do 'cause it's cool... To my mind they've effectively godmoded everyone they interact with. They force an expanded world setting on everyone around them simply by fact of their existence, one that the people they RP with may not have signed up for at all.

If you're cool with that, you're cool with that, but not everyone is. A similar situation arises when my character runs into the 5th maximum security prison escapee this week - it just stretches the bounds of believability and it's hard to RP with that. It's difficult, it's not fun, it can be frustrating, and I wholly sympathize with people who don't like it. As said - I'm not going to tell anyone they can't, and that it's bad. Different people, different RP styles. But I will ask them to make sure that anything 'off' they do with their character is cool with their community and with the people they RP with before they drop the bomb. It's just a matter of consideration.

In view of all this, I think this thread has a perfectly legitimate use - Discussing overdone or generally speaking poorly handled plot and character points so that people can avoid them if they so choose in order to keep the RP smooth and people having fun. If you want to ignore all this, great! Go for it. Just don't expect the people who voiced concerns to be eager to RP with you. And that's fine - the community is larger than a few small groups. A few people always don't see eye to eye and as long as they're civil about it, there are no problems. As long as we keep this attitude in mind and don't make it "Gawd, you won't believe what this one idiot did" then I think we'll be okay.

Verence · **03-22-2010, 12:53 PM**

Sorry for the double post and doubly sorry for the wall of text, but as I'm sure you've all gathered by now this subject is something I've had loads of experience with and feel somewhat strongly about. I had to get the above out of the way before I shared my own examples. The following is straight out of the Canta Per Me character creation guidelines and are all things I've seen overdone or done poorly.

Canta Per Me's character creation guidelines Wrote:Some things that may seem like a great idea at character genesis turn out later to be potential pitfalls to roleplay. None of these are ironclad Ã¢Â€Âœdo not doÃ¢Â€Â rules, but are more presented to make new roleplayers aware of possible hurdles to their easy and enjoyable roleplaying. If you have a concept youÃ¢Â€Â™re dying to try out thatÃ¢Â€Â™s inseparable from one of these, by all means try it!

The Lone Wolf Ã¢Â€Â“ Who wouldnÃ¢Â€Â™t want a strong, independent character who could care less if the world around them went up in smoke? ItÃ¢Â€Â™s an appealing idea, and one that can lead to a very stand-out character if done well. On the other side of the coin it often leads to difficulty getting involved in roleplaying sessions as your character stands on the sidelines, being independent. Lone Wolves are often unfriendly, and chasing away other characters with a stern look is loads of fun right up until you realize that now you have no one to roleplay with.

The Dark Past Ã¢Â€Â“ Tragic, dark, or villainous pasts is a great way to add a lot of zest to a character in a hurry. ItÃ¢Â€Â™s also a potential way of making other characters uncomfortable, especially if your characterÃ¢Â€Â™s history is alluded to often. No oneÃ¢Â€Â™s life is idyllic, so donÃ¢Â€Â™t shy away from conflict or hard times if that's the angle you'd like to take; just keep a mind towards moderation. A character with loads of baggage can scare off others and become difficult to roleplay.

Vengeance Ã¢Â€Â“ A timeless theme, and a powerful one. It can serve as a very strong motivator for your character... And an obsession that keeps them from taking advantage of what is going on in the community. Other characters will probably not care about your characterÃ¢Â€Â™s vendetta unless it involves them too, or they come to care about your character as the result of roleplay interaction. Even then they may shy away from taking a direct hand in exacting payback.

Amnesia Ã¢Â€Â“ A popular choice; after all, it saves you the trouble of coming up with a backstory, generates an interesting quirk, and gives a motivation all at the same time! Three for the price of one, right? The difficulty is that no backstory can actually become a handicap as you attempt to flesh out your character, find reasons for why they are the way they are, and dig for things they can talk about. ThereÃ¢Â€Â™s a danger of it cheapening your roleplay, doubly so since as above mentioned, chances are nobody will care that your character is amnesic until they get to know them.

Other Origin Ã¢Â€Â“ This is the only one IÃ¢Â€Â™ll directly condemn. Saying that your character comes from another planet, another dimension, Everquest, or modern day Earth changes the world setting of VanaÃ¢Â€Â™Diel into something else. It means that either your character is insane or that VanaÃ¢Â€Â™Diel is part of a metaverse Ã¢Â€Â“ something beyond the scope of Final Fantasy XI. This is something to be avoided (unless your character is in fact a nutter and simply thinks theyÃ¢Â€Â™re from somewhere else).

To this list, I'd add:

The Orphan - I didn't add this to the CPM list because, well, wars kill a lot of people. Plenty of people are going to have dead family members in the wake of a massive, savage, years-long war. We had a lot of people with no real family to speak of in CPM and given the setting, it seemed appropriate enough. In other settings, though... It can be incredibly common and it gets a bit weird when more people had their entire family murdered/disappeared/etc than not. Generally speaking, most people 0-40 have living parents.

The Kleptomaniac - They are a Thief, and they steal things! They pick pockets and break into houses! Why? ...'cause they're a Thief/Rogue/analogous jobclass and that's what they do, right? Well, not necessarily... Job classes tend to describe fighting style, not define personalities (though it's true certain personalities are drawn to certain job classes). We've established that the character is a Thief, but why do they steal everything in sight? All characters of this type that I've seen never seem to quite think that far. Do they do it for the adrenaline rush? Did they have a hard upbringing and seize any and all opportunity they see? "Because they're a Thief" isn't a legitimate reason - stealing is risky and dangerous, not something to be done on a whim "just because". Plus, all the pickpocketing can grate on other players as everyone in the area has their pockets systematically rifled through.

The Walking Autobiography - Often coupled with The Dark Past. It's perfectly understandable and quite common among new RPers - Someone comes up with an interesting, in-depth background for their character and they just can't wait to share it! So their character shares, at length, their life story, hopes, and dreams with whatever random passerby strikes up a conversation. Now, some people are like this. If your character is, great! Talkativeness can be an endearing trait. A lot of people aren't, though. Someone you sit next to at random on the bus isn't likely to spill their entire life story to you just because you said "hi". Pace yourself, think about what your character would and wouldn't be comfortable sharing in the given situation, and how appropriate it is for them to talk about themselves at all.

The PokÃƒÂ©maniac - I want to be the very best, like no one ever was! Okay, okay, bad joke. But common concept. I've seen this done well nearly as many times as I've seen it done poorly. A character, for whatever reason, is obsessed with being the best. The most powerful mage and the most skilled martial artist are two of the most common. Okay, fine... why? If you can come up with an interesting, compelling reason for their obsession then congratulations on a dynamic, motivated character. If you can't... Well, people don't just suddenly decide "I'm going to be the best damn PHP coder EVAR!" for no reason.

The Spontaneous Savior - A new character arrives on the scene and brings a dire warning of impending disaster. For whatever reason, they are the key to resolving it safely. This can be an awesome jump-start to a plot... IF you run it by the community first, make sure it doesn't conflict with anything, doesn't contradict the setting, and that people are generally okay with it. Don't be surprised or upset if they aren't; people often don't like things getting shaken up out of nowhere by someone they haven't RP'd with before. You can easily wind up the following situation.
Char #1: "The world's suddenly in danger for a reason I just made up, and I'm the only one who knows how to save it!"
Char #2: "...Who are you and why wasn't it in danger before you showed up?"

I've only run into possession twice - one made a lot of awkward situations for the linkshell. The other was very subtle and interesting, surprising everyone when the truth finally came out. There have also been a couple of incarcerations in CPM history, but to my knowledge there was only ever one breakout and they faked it to look like a death, then the escaping character moved to a different city under an assumed identity until things were eventually resolved with some backdoor diplomacy. Not terribly cliche, and I had fun watching that plot develop since the char in question was my char's adoptive little sister.

We never had any halfbreed characters, but I was opposed to them until I read about Enid Ironheart. According to game lore, all the in-game maps were drawn by Gwynham Ironheart, a Bastokan hume... And his half-Elvaan daughter Enid Ironheart. With a halfbreed built right into the lore like that, the LS decided they were possible but rare due to low fertility rate to explain why so few of them are seen. We also decided Tarutaru and Galkan crosses weren't possible due to the former's stature and the latter's technical asexuality. I don't really accept WotG as precedent for canon since it contradicts the rest of the game in several places in ways not explainable by time travel.

Nanapariri · **03-22-2010, 12:53 PM**

Quote:The Lone Wolf Ã¢Â€Â“ Who wouldnÃ¢Â€Â™t want a strong, independent character who could care less if the world around them went up in smoke? ItÃ¢Â€Â™s an appealing idea, and one that can lead to a very stand-out character if done well. On the other side of the coin it often leads to difficulty getting involved in roleplaying sessions as your character stands on the sidelines, being independent. Lone Wolves are often unfriendly, and chasing away other characters with a stern look is loads of fun right up until you realize that now you have no one to roleplay with.

It always surprised me how many people go into this sort of character and then are either mad or bored no one likes them. I made Tsumi like this with the goal of making her not well liked and did a little OOC dance when someone else was pissed off at her. Threatening and belitting other characters will make them not like your character just like if you acted that way in rl people would hate you. Also they need a reason to be the way they are and specific walls to really be believable. Just sitting in the corner grumbling about everything is annoying and boring. You need to walk a fine line to find good RP with this type of character showing little crack here and there for it to work and have other people's characters interested in them. I always, if there was a plot that sounded up Tsu's alley, asked OOC if I could come and never was turned down.

Also, if you want the lone wolf to not always be that way create them so they can find a motivation other than "let me find the perfect girl/guy to save me from my lonliness". The fun part of the lone wolf is there was always the persistant character that could break through if they tried enough in the right way which made for some interesting character developement but you need them to get small kernels to keep them digging. I gave Tsu some very definite exploitable things that would allow people to reach differnt levels into the depth of her character.

Quote:The Kleptomaniac - They are a Thief, and they steal things! They pick pockets and break into houses! Why? ...'cause they're a Thief/Rogue/analogous jobclass and that's what they do, right? Well, not necessarily... Job classes tend to describe fighting style, not define personalities (though it's true certain personalities are drawn to certain job classes). We've established that the character is a Thief, but why do they steal everything in sight? All characters of this type that I've seen never seem to quite think that far. Do they do it for the adrenaline rush? Did they have a hard upbringing and seize any and all opportunity they see? "Because they're a Thief" isn't a legitimate reason - stealing is risky and dangerous, not something to be done on a whim "just because". Plus, all the pickpocketing can grate on other players as everyone in the area has their pockets systematically rifled through.

I laughed when I read this because some of my most fun moments in RPing my character Crystarella were from Rping her picking people's pockets but there always was a reason. Generally to get someone's attention or make fun of them. She'd give it back if they figured it out and if they didn't she'd tell them eventually and give it back. I've not seen the "klepto" version of thief before myself but like you said it sounds like poor motivation on background.

EDIT: I almost forgot when she first started out and was just living on the streets she did actually pick a few pockets for money to eat. This also led to some interesting Rps.

Smiling River · **03-22-2010, 12:54 PM**

That's a fairly complete list there. I find it also that many characters tend to start RP somehow related to their family. It's almost a natural place to start a story for a new RP'er but also is a common trend which I don't see being outed as such.

I feel like making little sketches to represent each one of those types, Verence xD

EDIT:

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Cliche RP Elements

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