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The mystery of Estinien (AMPLE STORY SPOILERS ENTER AT OWN RISK)


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Dragoons and Ishgard Lore nuts like me must certainly know that the MSQ has tossed quite an interesting curveball.

 

Estinien appears, as an ally, as Azure Dragoon and obsessed with ending Nidhogg. Even after the steps of faith you see him monologing to himself about killing Nidhogg, nothing about say, scheming or having ulterior motives. 

 

 

This would be fine were it not that if you happen to have the DRG quest completed, Estinien will recognize you as Azure Dragoon and assure you that he does not mean to quarrel with you this day. Also it states that the eye of Nidhogg is safe behind Ishgard's walls in vault. 

 

 

So, has what transpired between you and Auberic and Estinien  a secret to everyone else? I'm pretty sure the quest states that Holy See had acknowledged Estinien went rogue. 

 

Estinien full on gives into the draconic influence and you dispatch him (Seems more like he disappears) I don't think Ishgard is amenable to such blasphemy. 

 

So, what are your theories? All I know I have to retcon my background.

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/shrug.

 

Lore goddess ain't got shit. I had a severe "what. the. actual. feck." moment when that happened in the MSQ.

 

If you talk to Alberic post 50 DRG quest, it clearly states that Estinien is the Azure Dragoon no more. "The first time in our nations history without a champion." bleh bleh. I was under the impression that Nidhogg either A) consumes him entirely, aether and all, or B) you do in fact... kill Estinien.

 

Neither eventuality explains his jovial appearance in the 2.55 MSQ. So... I am forced to call retcon. SE must be operating under the assumption that the Player Character has not completed the 50 DRG quest. But even then... if you have completed the 50 DRG story quest, Estinien recognizes you as his fellow Azure Dragoon, as if you were all buddy-buddy like you were pre-Lvl 50 quest. Ugh.

 

On the one hand... good lore on how the Azure Dragoon and Nidhogg's Eye actually work in tandem with each other. On the other... completely makes no sense.

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Neither eventuality explains his jovial appearance in the 2.55 MSQ. So... I am forced to call retcon. SE must be operating under the assumption that the Player Character has not completed the 50 DRG quest. But even then... if you have completed the 50 DRG story quest, Estinien recognizes you as his fellow Azure Dragoon, as if you were all buddy-buddy like you were pre-Lvl 50 quest. Ugh.

 

If you have unlocked DRG but have not completed that quest, he just makes mention that obviously you WOULD be there.

 

There has to be a way to reconcile this, but don't ask me I'm only 35 DRG.

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Oh good, I'm not the only person who was baffled by that. Obviously something happened after the job quests, but who knows what. 

 

I'm almost certain Fern will remain tight-lipped on this. He's got big plans for Estinien. I can feel it.

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I was puzzled by this as well. The only things I've been able to come up with that makes any sort of retarded sense is 

 

A)Once you defeat him in the dragoon quest. You purge the dragon's influence from him, leaving him weak but not dead? Also given the large time laps of seeing him in the Dragoon quest, until patch 2.55 he has now fully recovered from the fight and is back to normal?

 

B)After defeating him, he falls off the platform being left for dead. Though he is found by the Lord's men (then one in the cut scene in the blue armor that Estinien is standing beside. I forget his name.) then they aid him in recovering?

 

C)Maybe Alberic goes back to find Estinien? Finding the man nearly dead, Alberic nurses him back to health? 

 

Those are the only things, that would sound some what logical? Then again the lack of sleep may be playing tricks on my mind. :dazed:

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I don't really find it so shocking at all, really. In the end he was, or is, the Azure Dragoon. When you confront him and he takes on the power of Nidhogg it implies that there's some serious corruption there. Afterwards you channel the Dragoon's power and defeat him by throwing a column of flame at the guy in which he promptly disappears.

 

So either one of two things is happening here in my opinion:

 

1: the MSQ takes place before the final lvl 50 Dragoon quest.

 

2: You defeat Estinien and he returns after his sound thrashing, gets taken in by the Temple Knights who, by all appearances, need every edge they can get against the Dravanians and he IS the Azure Dragoon after all, and disguises his 'bond' with Nidhogg as "the eye is talking to me and grants me some power blahblahblah I can hear his planz"

 

Anyway it speaks more of Ishgard's desperation for powerful allies to me. It also has an interesting hook in that Estinien will either have the chance to redeem himself or to succumb fully into being a monster. Either way you as the fellow Azure Dragoon/Warrior of Light will be there to help or hinder him.

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A)Once you defeat him in the dragoon quest. You purge the dragon's influence from him, leaving him weak but not dead? Also given the large time laps of seeing him in the Dragoon quest, until patch 2.55 he has now fully recovered from the fight and is back to normal?

 

This.

 

Having not done 2.55 Part II content yet, I'm going to chalk up his Azure Dragoon claim to "insane sociopath, not high-functioning."

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No body, not dead. It's my opinion that they had mostly kept most of it under wraps (similar to Nanamo's condition now). I think after blasting him, Estinien had had a change of heart to speak? We knocked him upside the head to get his thoughts in order. He returned to Ishgard and made peace.

 

He won't be challenging us cause well... that's what he did last time. And he got his ass beat.

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So you say, but even if he is the only Azure Dragoon, he still became a heretic which is a GRAVE and unforgivable offence. Don't forget that they are more than content to execute innocents without due evidence. Even if they lost their greatest weapon as a result, I don't think that they'd really risk the Azure Dragoon siding with the dravanians.

 

Unless you're implying that they didn't know of his seduction and simply forgave him for stealing the eye because his intentions were later explained and deemed just.

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So you say, but even if he is the only Azure Dragoon, he still became a heretic which is a GRAVE and unforgivable offence. Don't forget that they are more than content to execute innocents without due evidence. Even if they lost their greatest weapon as a result, I don't think that they'd really risk the Azure Dragoon siding with the dravanians.

 

Unless you're implying that they didn't know of his seduction and simply forgave him for stealing the eye because his intentions were later explained and deemed just.

 

It is entirely possible that they don't know. Despite his loyalty to the church, Alberic still loved Estinien like his own son. And ultimately, Alberic and the Hero of Light are the only living people who know what he did. So it's not much of a stretch to imagine that Alberic covered for Estinien. He may have even made him out to be a hero in his retelling of the Eye situation.

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It is entirely possible that they don't know. Despite his loyalty to the church, Alberic still loved Estinien like his own son. And ultimately, Alberic and the Hero of Light are the only living people who know what he did. So it's not much of a stretch to imagine that Alberic covered for Estinien. He may have even made him out to be a hero in his retelling of the Eye situation.

 

Sorry, my reply did sort of come off as though I were suggesting it was really difficult to believe that much, haha. That wasn't my intention. Though it's still not easy to just take for granted either. If Estinien hadn't learned his lesson from that alone then Alberic surely should have had reservations about allowing him to continue donning the armour and title, for his own sake.

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Alberic went to great lengths to not say -who- stole the Eye. The very first dragoon quest he mentions not to mention who asked the adventurer to go questioning the likely -Ishgardian fugitives'- routes. They only know of a thief not who and he certainly would not have told them Estinien might have been fallen to the Eye's seduction.

 

Alberic loved him as his own son. He took him in and trained him. Yes out of guilt but still people develop those feelings.

 

"Estinien, my dear boy... Whatever becomes of him, he will ever be as a son to me. I pray that he is somewhere out there still...and that he has not wholly forgotten the great man he once was."

 

I'm pretty sure once the Eye is back (unknown if Alberic was able to return it or that Estinien put it back), if he thinks Estinien is back to whom he was once, Alberic would greet him with open arms. Keep in mind, Alberic never disclosed what truly happened, even with the eye theft. Not even to the archbishop.

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That Ishgard would resort to sending coin-starved adventurers after me... I know not whether to laugh or feel insulted.

 

Is literally the first words out of Estinien's mouth upon meeting him. (In both 1.0 and 2.0 versions.) Clearly... Ishgard knows who took the Eye and they want it back. They just don't know why he took the Eye.

 

Also Journal text for "Eye of the Dragoon"

Ser Alberic has enlisted your aid in tracking down the Eye, a priceless Ishgardian relic that has been spirited away by a rogue dragoon named Estinien.

 

So... clearly Ishgard knows. How could they not? Especially after this description of how its kept deep inside Ishgard from the new MSQ:

 

The Eye itself is secreted deep within the Vault. It is kept under heavy guard - surrounded at all times by men and women who have proven their loyalty to the Holy See.

 

So.... how the hell did Estinien walk out with the Eye in the first place? But considering the story tells us he did, in fact, walk in and out with the Eye... I'd seriously doubt Ishgard would be clueless about who done it.

 

To sate my curiosity, I went back to talk to Ser Alberic, having now completed the MSQ. Guess what he says. Give you clue... same damn thing he said before 2.55:

With Estinien having left us' date=' the post of the Azure Dragoon has been vacated for the first time in the See's recorded history.[/b'] If I said that the current state of affairs did not put me ill at ease, I would be a liar. And yet, I am but a lone dragoon, and it is not my place to question. And so I place my trust in my superiors, and defend the See with my life.

 

Note: the Player Character does not count as the Azure Dragoon, despite being chosen by the Eye during the quest. You are just a dragoon, one of many. Estinien is dead or gone according to Alberic. So... WHY IS HE ALL UP IN MY MSQ ALBERIC?????

 

Granted, this whole thing about him somehow magically disappearing into the aether of Nidhogg and returning... completely exempt from all crimes he committed (heresy, treason, theft, attempted murder of an Azure dragoon) is so farfetched it just might be true. But bleh.

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Dialogue from "Into the Dragon's Maw" (lvl 50, final DRG quest)

#8 Estinien

As I understand it, you've kept even the archbishop in the dark regarding the missing Eye. Do you mean to take your shame to your grave?

 

Dialogue from the first Dragoon Quest

#14 Alberic

I was told that a sentry by the name of Logedanrel might have knowledge of routes oft taken by Ishgardian fugitives. I would prefer to keep my identity a secret, and thus would have you gather what information you can from the man.

 

Only the player, Alberic, and Estinien even mention his name. The journal is for -you-.

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It still doesn't explain away how one man walked into the most heavily guarded Vault inside Ishgard and walked out with the Eye and no one guessed who. It also doesn't explain away the fact that by the end of the lv50 DRG quest, Estinien is pronounced dead to the Holy See and the Eye has been returned to the Vault.

 

I mean... Estinien is the commander of all Dragoons. He can't exactly just go missing without people noticing, right? That's like if Aymeric got offed. I think people would notice?

 

Hmm... our Azure Dragoon is dead and Alberic returned the Eye to Ishgard. I wonder who could've taken the Eye? This whole thing doesn't make any sense. It would've been okay if they hadn't added the text saying Estinien recognized you. Then you could handwave it and be like "oh okay, MSQ > DRG 50 Quest. Easy." But Estinien throws a wrench in everything and says "Oh hey it's you - guy that killed me! It's okay, I'm fine now and I returned the Eye to Ishgard and everything's fine. Not one of the Temple guards noticed me replacing the Eye."

 

B-B-But... I owned your ass so hard you vaporized?

Nah. That ain't me.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry, just frustrates me that SE is normally so good on continuity... and then this happens. LORE HAS FAILED ME. ; ; /goes back to crying about MSQ being over.

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@Sounsyy: It struck me as to why Estinien is in the MSQ. It has hit me like a sack of bricks as I sat at my desk. :tonberry: Are behind it all!

 

 

I'm going to take one more stab at a real theory here.

 

Could have it been possible that the last time you see Estinien, that it's an impostor? A heretic? That they may have subdued the real Estinien and took his armor and weapon? So the man you vaporize is really a heritic. It would also explain his appearance and why he recognizes you as well in the 2.55 cut scene.

 

Edit: Also Alberic never found out that Estinien is still alive? 

 

I'm picking at bones here!

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Go up and say "I got the Eye back from that thief."

 

We now make sure it's super duper protected! He was gone, thought lost to the cause. But he has reappeared... -not- lost to the cause.

 

Alberic may simply not know anything but er... he's still looking for a thief? I dunno what happened at the end of the Dragoon quest with regards to the Eye.. @_@; It's my understanding that Alberic thought him dead or finding himself after that Nanoha-inspired attack. It's just perhaps they never actually told the Archbishop "he dead and gone cause he did x and was seduced by the eye." Doesn't explain Alberic's post 2.55 comments but /shrug.

 

It could be a possible clue anyhow.

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even if the Holy See pronounced him "dead", obviously Alberic isn't convinced of that at the end of the Dragoon quest. He even flatly states "I can only hope that Estinien is still out there", lo and behold he is. Final Fantasy has always been a case of habeas corpus when it comes to not only your comrades but your enemies. Unless there's a body clearly splayed out on the dirt for you to prod at then never believe that someone is dead.

 

As for how Estinien simply "walked out" with the Eye? Well if he's the Azure Dragoon then we don't know how far that authority carries or what the limits to it, if any, actually are. He could have fought his way out, simply picked it up and said "this is mine, now" and because lolazuredarguun status the guards had no reason to stop him, or most likely since he knows how it was stored and who or what was guarding it, he was simply able to steal it with minimal effort.

 

As for as him showing up POST lvl 50 Dragoon quest, if that is in fact how the timeline is going to place it, then I would simply say that Aymeric is the type who is obviously willing to bend the rules to get what he wants. Overlooking something like "misplacing the Eye" for a few days wouldn't be beneath him. Especially if he can bring the power of an Azure Dragoon to bear against an overwhelming Dravanian Horde.

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As for how Estinien simply "walked out" with the Eye? Well if he's the Azure Dragoon then we don't know how far that authority carries or what the limits to it, if any, actually are. He could have fought his way out, simply picked it up and said "this is mine, now" and because lolazuredarguun status the guards had no reason to stop him, or most likely since he knows how it was stored and who or what was guarding it, he was simply able to steal it with minimal effort.

 

 

"Hey guys, I'ma borrow this for a bit."  

"Alrighty, we'll just stand here guarding an empty room while you're gone..."

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As for how Estinien simply "walked out" with the Eye? Well if he's the Azure Dragoon then we don't know how far that authority carries or what the limits to it, if any, actually are. He could have fought his way out, simply picked it up and said "this is mine, now" and because lolazuredarguun status the guards had no reason to stop him, or most likely since he knows how it was stored and who or what was guarding it, he was simply able to steal it with minimal effort.

 

 

"Hey guys, I'ma borrow this for a bit."  

"Alrighty, we'll just stand here guarding an empty room while you're gone..."

Well let's be fair, if someone who outranks you by not just a few levels but by -leaps and bounds- 'relieves you of your duties'? You just damn do what they say. As written in the Charge of the Light Brigade and something any soldier knows well: "Ours is not to question why; ours is to but do and die". 

 

It's really not that much of a stretch in logic, more like a reach over to the coffee table to scoop up that big gulp.

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Here is my theory, and I will post it here for all posterity in case I am right.

 

FFXIV is in it for the long term, and it will base each expansion around one of the original jobs. That's why they're not introducing any more jobs, and sort of giving up on the class/job system. If you look at the lore it lines up all the expansions quite nicely.

 

Expansion 1 - Ishgard, Dragoons

Expansion 2- Back to Ul'dah, Paladin

Expansion 3- Take back Ala-mhigo, Monk

 

Other expansions fit around classes nicely.

 

Doma - Ninja

Ampador - White Mage

The Void - Black Mage

Ancient Allagan (time travel) Scholar/SMN

Worlds edge mountains - Warrior

Bard... Somewhere, I didn't pay attention in the class quests.

 

 

 

In other words, I think that all the intricacies of being a Dragoon will be fully explained in heavensward, and all the lore will line up for dragoons by the end. I think the same will be done for Paladins in the next expansion.

 

So I'm more curious than outraged. How is Estinien still the Azure Dragoon? We'll find out!

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Here is my theory, and I will post it here for all posterity in case I am right.

 

FFXIV is in it for the long term, and it will base each expansion around one of the original jobs. That's why they're not introducing any more jobs, and sort of giving up on the class/job system. If you look at the lore it lines up all the expansions quite nicely.

 

Expansion 1 - Ishgard, Dragoons

Expansion 2- Back to Ul'dah, Paladin

Expansion 3- Take back Ala-mhigo, Monk

 

But... they are introducing new Jobs, and they said they would continue to introduce more Jobs in future expansions. They are just not introducing any future Classes as far as we know. As far them basing expansions around a specific Job, I doubt it... I think there is just an emphasis on DRG because of Ishgard, and I'm pretty sure we will be going back to Ul'dah in Heavensward... they aren't going to leave that open and untouched for the next 1+ year.

 

They initially said when they started designing the expansion they were conflicted between a sky based expansion, or a water based expansion. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing the water based expansion as the second expac, then perhaps Ala Mhigo as expac 3.

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Here is my theory, and I will post it here for all posterity in case I am right.

 

FFXIV is in it for the long term, and it will base each expansion around one of the original jobs. That's why they're not introducing any more jobs, and sort of giving up on the class/job system. If you look at the lore it lines up all the expansions quite nicely.

 

Expansion 1 - Ishgard, Dragoons

Expansion 2- Back to Ul'dah, Paladin

Expansion 3- Take back Ala-mhigo, Monk

 

But... they are introducing new Jobs, and they said they would continue to introduce more Jobs in future expansions. They are just not introducing any future Classes as far as we know. As far them basing expansions around a specific Job, I doubt it... I think there is just an emphasis on DRG because of Ishgard, and I'm pretty sure we will be going back to Ul'dah in Heavensward... they aren't going to leave that open and untouched for the next 1+ year.

 

They initially said when they started designing the expansion they were conflicted between a sky based expansion, or a water based expansion. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing the water based expansion as the second expac, then perhaps Ala Mhigo as expac 3.

 

We shall see! If I could prove it then it wouldn't be a prediction, now would it?

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