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Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead


Zelmanov

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This right here, when you create a character you're writing your own lore into the game world. Characters that are written to follow the lore to the absolute t tend to be uninteresting Imo. It's the other side of the coin of people who think they need to be a super special character to be interesting. 

 

I want to meet characters who interact with the world. Nor just sit around the quicksand and chat about how they spend their day reading at the ossuray day in and day out telling me about some little lore tidbit that they read about. 

 

At some point a character is going to have to go out on a limb and fill in their own lore at some point. Because it's entirely unreasonable to expect SE to have written every single detail into the world. I can only imagine how soul crushing it must feel to go to these lore panels knowing you're going to be bombarded by questions that probably never crossed their minds. Knowing they'll need a lot of improvising when they get asked a question like, how do these jellyfish fly? I honestly can't imagine that's something they thought about when it was designed.

 

I'm a bit sad that you think people playing mundane characters are uninteresting. If you need to play an elite edgy dragoon to go out interact with the world, because hell no, a standard gridanian gardening botanist sure can't as hell interact with the world... And especially not his piece of Black Shroud... Which sure isn't part of the WORLD. :roll:

 

Everyone will find their interest in different degrees of grandeur.

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It's not that they need to be a super big awesome character as it is people worrying so much that their character not come off as anything special that they don't ever get out into the world. 

 

There's nothing wrong about being average but to take it to the point that it's exactly the same issue that people that feel their character needs to be a special job to be interesting. 

 

I'm not looking so much for special characters as much as people who are bold with their characters. By bold I don't mean being special, as much as it is people breaking out of the box to be something more than just a face in the crowd. 

 

It's like meeting for an interview, the characters that are going to be remembered are going to be the ones that stand out from the rest. 

 

If someone is going to is gonna write a generic thief character and not be anything more out of fear of being seen as special, then no, it's not going to be an interesting character.

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It's not that they need to be a super big awesome character as it is people worrying so much that their character not come off as anything special that they don't ever get out into the world. 

 

There's nothing wrong about being average but to take it to the point that it's exactly the same issue that people that feel their character needs to be a special job to be interesting. 

 

I'm not looking so much for special characters as much as people who are bold with their characters. By bold I don't mean being special, as much as it is people breaking out of the box to be something more than just a face in the crowd. 

 

It's like meeting for an interview, the characters that are going to be remembered are going to be the ones that stand out from the rest. 

 

If someone is going to is gonna write a generic thief character and not be anything more out of fear of being seen as special, then no, it's not going to be an interesting character.

Not like you know, have something called personality to make them interesting, and not really what they are or how they look like.

 

I think a generic thief would be still a lot less generic then your 'insert any very common character concept in here' on Balmung.

 

If people can't write a character, fitting in lore, to make them interesting, they are simply not skillful roleplayers/writers to begin with. It is not a good idea to try to cling onto a special job/background to make your character interesting if you can't give them an interesting personality, or provided interesting roleplay, to begin with. I think that is truly the 'issue' with a lot of people who roleplay such things.

 

They can't make character's personalities or roleplay interesting within the lore given, and instead resort to outlandish concepts to make them look interesting for other people. They look for attention of others more then writing something good. Because you know, being cool/outlandish/special is going to generate attention to you and your character, good or bad, it seems to matter little to them, as long they get said desired attention.

 

But once more, if you can't write a character with a interesting personality and/or roleplay. The fault doesn't lay with the 'restrictions' given by lore, but instead the blame should be put on a lack of creativity. And often with roleplayers, sadly enough, the inability to be social, and simply cling on trying to look interesting, instead of creating said interesting interaction.

 

Then again at the end of the day, it's not like people of either side of the fence are going to roleplay together. So who cares.

 

That's my two gil on it.

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It's not that they need to be a super big awesome character as it is people worrying so much that their character not come off as anything special that they don't ever get out into the world. 

 

There's nothing wrong about being average but to take it to the point that it's exactly the same issue that people that feel their character needs to be a special job to be interesting. 

 

I'm not looking so much for special characters as much as people who are bold with their characters. By bold I don't mean being special, as much as it is people breaking out of the box to be something more than just a face in the crowd. 

 

It's like meeting for an interview, the characters that are going to be remembered are going to be the ones that stand out from the rest. 

 

If someone is going to is gonna write a generic thief character and not be anything more out of fear of being seen as special, then no, it's not going to be an interesting character.

 

Characters that are well remembered are ones with a well written personality. Their feats, class, backstory, and anything else, to me, is secondary.

 

Flawed, innocent, egotistical, timid. Doesn't matter the kind of character, only that it stands out as an individual.

 

So yes, a generic thief could be interesting. I wrote a character who could not fight or heal and RPed him for nearly 8 years and he was extremely well received by the communities I RPed him.

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It's not that they need to be a super big awesome character as it is people worrying so much that their character not come off as anything special that they don't ever get out into the world. 

 

There's nothing wrong about being average but to take it to the point that it's exactly the same issue that people that feel their character needs to be a special job to be interesting. 

 

I'm not looking so much for special characters as much as people who are bold with their characters. By bold I don't mean being special, as much as it is people breaking out of the box to be something more than just a face in the crowd. 

 

It's like meeting for an interview, the characters that are going to be remembered are going to be the ones that stand out from the rest. 

 

If someone is going to is gonna write a generic thief character and not be anything more out of fear of being seen as special, then no, it's not going to be an interesting character.

The devil is in the details. You can more than write a 'generic' character on paper who breaks through to the reader and leaves a lasting impression. Honestly for myself the characters who are of little import who then go on to do great deeds in spite of their limitations are the far more memorable. Samwise from Lord of The Rings springs to mind immediately. What was special about Sam that you could not attribute to any other member of the company? What was special about Sam that even his fellow Hobbit's did not possess? He was the least remarkable of the four on paper and in ambition. Yet it is through that that he became perhaps the greatest hero of the narrative. For while Frodo broke under the weight of his burden it was Samwise who bore him further into Mordor and eventually saw the ring destroyed. His desires simple. His skills utterly unprepared to the task without a garden to tend. Yet he is the reason the day was won.

 

Honestly if someone can't make a so called 'generic' character interesting enough to rise above their mediocre abilities to leave a lasting impression I find more fault with the writer than anyone else. The only difference between Sam, or any of the Hobbits really, and any other character who is exactly like him is that Tolkien had the deft hand needed to write him and make his personality take the forefront. Nothing more.

 

With that said I don't really care about 'special this' and 'special that', write what you want to write. You'll always find people who will receive it for better or worse. Having fun is more important. ^^

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It's not that they need to be a super big awesome character as it is people worrying so much that their character not come off as anything special that they don't ever get out into the world. 

 

There's nothing wrong about being average but to take it to the point that it's exactly the same issue that people that feel their character needs to be a special job to be interesting. 

 

I'm not looking so much for special characters as much as people who are bold with their characters. By bold I don't mean being special, as much as it is people breaking out of the box to be something more than just a face in the crowd. 

 

It's like meeting for an interview, the characters that are going to be remembered are going to be the ones that stand out from the rest. 

 

If someone is going to is gonna write a generic thief character and not be anything more out of fear of being seen as special, then no, it's not going to be an interesting character.

 

You put your finger exactly where I agree... to disagree.

 

I think that's an annoying mistake to believe that making a character stand out is done by making them "go out of the box", making them "special".

 

What makes a character stand out is a well rounded, fleshed out character, 3 dimensional character, not a character that is so special that they lose their very essence by being... I don't know exactly what they are actually in those cases, that's the issue.

 

A character can be as special, out of the box, as you may want them to be, if your character is flat as a pancake and 2 dimensional, then it makes it even worse than a mundane 2 dimensional character. Because it turns them into something rubbish, unbelievable, and/or just laughable (in a bad way).

 

But I guess that's also where you will find a whole world of difference between what makes shonen characters like Naruto "cool", and seinen characters "interesting". In the latter case, what makes your average thief interesting, is exactly because your average thief is average in the first place: all the struggles they will face, their doubts, their failures, the way they see the world, their human side. In the former case, what will make your average thief interesting is just that they will comply to be basic rules of shonen, being a teen-angst, dark brooding but all lovey goody two shoes male hero who gets angry at every injustice, and can actually change things because he is special, a chosen one, and has super powers. And compared to him indeed, your average thief, no matter how well fleshed out they will be, will pale in comparison, not because of a lesser writing, but to the contrary, because the special snowflake shonen character will suck out everything from that average character presence to concentrate it in the middle of the spotlight: the awesome one.

 

Now you see why most people playing average characters tend to flee the former archetype like the plague. Those are the best way to turn your average character, no matter how good they are, into simple story disposable meat for the other one to shine (out of their rubbishness).

 

Note: that's my personal, artistical taste on the matter, for once.

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Questions about the validity of those who attempt at lore adherence aside - I wanted to ask a bit of feedback from across the isle about peoples opinions on how this, and other restrictive lore documentation feels on the opinions of people.

 

It's fairly clear that, baring the massive gray area that is elite adventurers and adventure culture in general, that the lore was written without any consideration to gameplay or role-play features. This is evidence by the multiple job organization lores that completely contrast one another, from the fairly open free Paladins to the dwindling Knights Dragoon to even the non-existent White Mages.

 

From complete acceptance to lore bending, this has left a pretty divisive mark on our Roleplaying community, as indicated by the sharp discussions and mod invoking. Where do you stand, opinion wise, on this kind of lore? Do you consider it good writing or bad storyplay design?

 

 

As for my opinion:

 

"You can play or work with this, you can't with that.", In my opinion, does not sit well in a multiplayer field. The game is written very much from a single player RPG prespective, taking great strides to make the individual "Warrior of Light" feel special and central to the story to the point of exclusion of all else... with one exception.

 

That grey area mentioned earlier - the Adventurer Culture. I find it funny that, in a book made of lore, the most central developmental culture of an entire continent is left with so little information and time worked upon.  I can't help that this order is left intentionally vague to be the ripe soil from which players can grow their own stories. But let's touch on that matter another time.

 

Without this exception, the game to me just isn't well written enough to accommodate the large number of RPers we have - at least not as a whole. Which means no matter how close you want to get to the lore itself, it's just completely unsustainable at this juncture as we're too numerous, and the game's writing anticipates far fewer of us in the long haul. (This is kinda indicated by the housing market to, I suppose.) 

 

Anyways, those are my scattered thoughts on it. How does everyone else feel - as this changed to Dragoon is just another indication of implied exclusivity among the many parts of the game's lore. I'll reply to other segments of this discussion likely on a different thread, as talking about using existing mechanics in game and implying whether they do or do not lend to characters with depth is sort of tangential here.

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But I guess that's also where you will find a whole world of difference between what makes shonen characters like Naruto "cool", and seinen characters "interesting". In the latter case, what makes your average thief interesting, is exactly because your average thief is average in the first place: all the struggles they will face, their doubts, their failures, the way they see the world, their human side. In the former case, what will make your average thief interesting is just that they will comply to be basic rules of shonen, being a teen-angst, dark brooding but all lovey goody two shoes male hero who gets angry at every injustice, and can actually change things because he is special, a chosen one, and has super powers. And compared to him indeed, your average thief, no matter how well fleshed out they will be, will pale in comparison, not because of a lesser writing, but to the contrary, because the special snowflake shonen character will suck out everything from that average character presence to concentrate it in the middle of the spotlight: the awesome one.

Ummm... no I'm going to have to disagree with this. There's a distinct difference between a interesting shonen hero and one that can be cool just because they suck out everything from the average person in comparison. The average thief is not inherently "better" than a superpowered MC of some high action movie or whatever. It all depends on the writing. DBZ is a prime example with this, The Saiyans mainly are terrible characters that drain any excitement from the human characters just because of plot line ancestry. It's to the point I believe DB Super to be absolutely trash.

 

But let's take Vegeta for example, as he's the only character from that series (besides teen gohan probably) that isn't cringe worthy to watch.  Now people don't like him because of his 1 liners, badass entrances (even though he never wins a big fight) or the fact he can shoot beams that can destroy worlds from his hands. He's got such a huge fanbase of people because he portrays the epitome of "You can do it if you work hard enough for it". GOKU is the typical all talented shonen hero with that basic ass "I hate all evil and never give up" crap. Vegeta is the one who you could see grow over the series and face many problems average people would (comparing themselves to someone doing better than them, not living up to others standards, having to compete with people who naturally just seem to be better than you) just on a larger scale.

 

Just cause you want to shoot magic from your hands doesn't automatically make you less interesting than one of those mundane characters nor is the reverse true. It's a preference to a demographic, but at the same time you don't have to be blind to the other side either.

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Yes of course. It would be boring if all stories were about a farmer boy going on an adventure.

 

Some powerful characters either work as you say because they started from scratch (but that's where it becomes tricky in MMOs, everyone isn't necessarily your audience and watches from the beginning, especially when realistic problems enter the equation, like a 20y old character master their art or so). Or either when they are powerful de facto, but are not the center of the spotlight (aka, mentors of sorts, see Gandalf, Auron, etc).

 

But more than that, it mostly boils down to believability, or suspension of disbelief.

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Yes of course. It would be boring if all stories were about a farmer boy going on an adventure.

 

Some powerful characters either work as you say because they started from scratch (but that's where it becomes tricky in MMOs, everyone isn't necessarily your audience and watches from the beginning, especially when realistic problems enter the equation, like a 20y old character master their art or so). Or either when they are powerful de facto, but are not the center of the spotlight (aka, mentors of sorts, see Gandalf, Auron, etc).

 

But more than that, it mostly boils down to believability, or suspension of disbelief.

Yeah believiability is important the best black mage character I've ever seen played is an old jaded man in his fifties. Magic preserved secretly through his family by a codex passed down through his family that each person would add their own discoveries in. What made him a good black mage was that it's what he was raised on that made him who he was. His entire life was that he was a black mage. He was definitely more skilled than most black mages but compared to the rest of his family he came up short. He screwed up rituals a lot. Despite that he believes himself to be some sort of legendary black mage.

 

That's an example of a character that in my opinion wouldn't work if you took black magic away from him. Because iclly he believes that's all he is. Take it away and he feels his existence is pointless.

 

I guess what I meant to say is people who find ways to do these powerful jobs are more willing to risk more with their characters than those who are who would rather stick to the lore exactly. Not saying normal characters can't be interesting, but I've just found they risk more for story than people who get caught up on each little detail. Rather than creating a compelling story. 

 

That isn't to say there's not a huge number of people who take power jobs just cause they believe that they need it to be interesting. Cause they get redundant too.

 

I'm just saying that on average people who are willing to risk more tens to create the more compelling stories. Cause they're not afraid to risk stepping out of the line.

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I'm just saying that on average people who are willing to risk more tens to create the more compelling stories. Cause they're not afraid to risk stepping out of the line.

 

Honestly not trying to be an ass with this question... but where do you get this "average"? Is there an actual documented study out there stating as much, or is this your personal experience?

 

 

Because, on average, in my personal experience, those players that have stayed within the boundaries of the lore have created far more compelling stories and interesting characters than those that stray off to, for instance, be the 11th dragoon.

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The distinction is an illusion of preference. RP requires you to garner interest in your writing. While I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, you need some kind of hook, whether that's being older than the average character or being an Allagan construct or something off the wall like that. You need to write in the way you're confident can get and retain an audience. It is fallacious to assume that simply because a person chose a different approach to this they're a worse writer, period.

 

My stance is and always has been "players have a right to not suck." It's fine to be competent at something. You write at a level of competency that means something to the character's development. If that demands they're special that's fine. If it demands they're mundane that's fine. So long as they're neither meaninglessly strong or weak to feed your ego you really can't "fail" this part of RP.

 

A character who doesn't fight or heal can still be very competent or exceptional within the context of a setting, but I'll take it in good faith that they're meant to be a generic concept executed in a distinct enough way that it's fun to play with. I don't agree this has inherent value. The character doesn't exist in a vacuum. A character lashed directly to the lore can be boring or interesting and at any given time this can fluctuate to any point between extremes for each individual player on every individual day, depending on who else is there and what situation they're in.

 

But I don't believe the lore friendliness debate was ever about how to write an effective hook, but rather a shouting match to determine who has the right to claim their writing is somehow more genuine, more worthy. No amount of concession on either side will satisfy anyone because of it. Similar to coding people's RP behavior in chargen threads, it's about misleading the opposition into thinking they'll be shunned. The idea wasn't to help a person execute their concept but rather to tell them what you don't like, so you see less of what you don't like in the game proper. That behavior can still be unconscious too, so it's not assuming malign intent necessarily, even if the boot fits by coincidence once in a while.

 

Back on track though, it's pretty clear that a lot of people either enjoyed playing Dragoon or knew people who they respected playing the Job. It's not really their fault the retcon happened. People want to apply uneven standards about the lore to the Job, and I wondered, if the standards are too draconian to accommodate the people you want to play with, who do they benefit? If it's the satisfaction you get from adhering to the lore, is that worth more than others' rp? Maybe they ought to be relaxed, if all they do is deny you and others choice. I'm pretty much rambling at this point, but I think standards that aren't standard probably aren't necessary, really.

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Average in what I've found personally along with a few other rpers. I can't speak for everyone but that's just what a small sample of people have said.

 

In the end though it comes down to what it takes to have fun personally. The server is diverse enough to find a group that fits you.

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Because, on average, in my personal experience, those players that have stayed within the boundaries of the lore have created far more compelling stories and interesting characters than those that stray off to, for instance, be the 11th dragoon.

You will not speak ill of Xargdoon. He is a collection of Estinien's memories that were suppressed when he was possessed by Nidhogg, and created by the Ascians in an attempt to have a more controllable Azure Dragoon should Estinien break free.

 

(sorry not sorry)

 

I think the issue is the variance on people's acceptance of lore-bending. What the boundaries are for what someone "can" or "cannot" play, kept solely in the purview of "will I RP with them." There are some that cleave super-close to the lore, using the restriction and provided lore alone to thrive through creativity through limitations. Others delve more into the "what if" gray areas and bring forth fanciful ideas - swerving away from the lore to varying degrees. There is fun to be had all across the spectrum, especially on a server as populous as Balmung, depending on your own preferences and comfort.

 

And there's equal chances that any of them can be played poorly, just as even the most overpowered or bog-standard character concept can be interesting in the right hands. It's just the more fanciful ones are more quickly... written off... and (perhaps rightfully at times) have a bad stigma to them. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes not. I just don't think it's enough reason to dismiss wanting to play more fanciful characters out of hand. After all, this is a fantasy MMO, right? Maybe some folks just want to play something fantastical now and then.

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Yes of course. It would be boring if all stories were about a farmer boy going on an adventure.

 

Some powerful characters either work as you say because they started from scratch (but that's where it becomes tricky in MMOs, everyone isn't necessarily your audience and watches from the beginning, especially when realistic problems enter the equation, like a 20y old character master their art or so). Or either when they are powerful de facto, but are not the center of the spotlight (aka, mentors of sorts, see Gandalf, Auron, etc).

 

But more than that, it mostly boils down to believability, or suspension of disbelief.

 

Remember too though... this IS a Final Fantasy game. Most of the playable characters ARE in fact about that young. (We'll take Cecil there as a good example, only 20 and yet such a skilled DRK that he was made captain of the Red Wings. And while that post doesn't mention Kain, it is likely that he, a full fledged DRG, is about the same age.) So, do we apply Real World limitations to our game or keep the Fantasy going?

 

Full disclosure - I am personally no where near 20. lol. I know full well how annoying it is to play with folks who have characters with god-like abilities and pull a playground "Nuh Uh, you can't beat me!" whenever they are threatened by anything. But there is a middle ground between this and 'so average that they can't actually do anything that exists in the XIV world/storyline but doesn't exist in Real Life'.

 

I am still holding to my idea that XIV's story and lore are written as though this was a single player game (mentioned a few pages back). In order to account for the thousands that are roleplaying in this world, we're gonna have to do some handwaving here and there. Try to work with what we're given, sure, but ultimately it is still a fantasy game.

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Because, on average, in my personal experience, those players that have stayed within the boundaries of the lore have created far more compelling stories and interesting characters than those that stray off to, for instance, be the 11th dragoon.

You will not speak ill of Xargdoon. He is a collection of Estinien's memories that were suppressed when he was possessed by Nidhogg, and created by the Ascians in an attempt to have a more controllable Azure Dragoon should Estinien break free.

 

(sorry not sorry)

 

I think the issue is the variance on people's acceptance of lore-bending. What the boundaries are for what someone "can" or "cannot" play, kept solely in the purview of "will I RP with them." There are some that cleave super-close to the lore, using the restriction and provided lore alone to thrive through creativity through limitations. Others delve more into the "what if" gray areas and bring forth fanciful ideas - swerving away from the lore to varying degrees. There is fun to be had all across the spectrum, especially on a server as populous as Balmung, depending on your own preferences and comfort.

 

And there's equal chances that any of them can be played poorly, just as even the most overpowered or bog-standard character concept can be interesting in the right hands. It's just the more fanciful ones are more quickly... written off... and (perhaps rightfully at times) have a bad stigma to them. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes not. I just don't think it's enough reason to dismiss wanting to play more fanciful characters out of hand. After all, this is a fantasy MMO, right? Maybe some folks just want to play something fantastical now and then.

 

I'm not disagreeing. Different tastes, different styles. Neither side of the spectrum is wrong, as I stated in my first post in this thread.

 

My point with the average bit was to state that you can't take personal experences, in this regard, and turn around to claim it as whole truth fact. I was simply requesting clarification on his part, ir.. the off chance that some such study actually does exist out there.

 

His personal experience is that he found characters that stretch the lore in some fashion are more compelling. My personal experience was the opposite. Neither is the whole truth fact for the entire server because, as you and now I have stated, different tastes.

 

The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

 

And as to Xargdoon, full credit goes to the sister thread with regard to the 11th dragoon. :)

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The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

 

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

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Remember too though... this IS a Final Fantasy game. Most of the playable characters ARE in fact about that young. (We'll take Cecil there as a good example, only 20 and yet such a skilled DRK that he was made captain of the Red Wings. And while that post doesn't mention Kain, it is likely that he, a full fledged DRG, is about the same age.) So, do we apply Real World limitations to our game or keep the Fantasy going?

 

Full disclosure - I am personally no where near 20. lol. I know full well how annoying it is to play with folks who have characters with god-like abilities and pull a playground "Nuh Uh, you can't beat me!" whenever they are threatened by anything. But there is a middle ground between this and 'so average that they can't actually do anything that exists in the XIV world/storyline but doesn't exist in Real Life'.

 

I am still holding to my idea that XIV's story and lore are written as though this was a single player game (mentioned a few pages back). In order to account for the thousands that are roleplaying in this world, we're gonna have to do some handwaving here and there. Try to work with what we're given, sure, but ultimately it is still a fantasy game.

 

You are talking about the heroes of the FF stories. Aka, the WoL in XIV.

 

I'm mostly referring to the people depicted by the lore. All the other people. The inhabitants of that world.

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The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

 

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

 

I, personally, disagree. I would rather be told flat out that whatever it is I'm choosing to do will have some sort of consequence. Of course, again, this is personal opinion.

 

However, destructive or not, it is the truth. As you said yourself, several people in this thread alone have commented whether they would or would not interact with particular concepts.

 

I see it more as a heads up, particularly to those that feel entitled. Namely, those that think that they deserve to receive RP no matter what their character concept might be. I daresay there are a handful of said people in this very thread.

 

There was a post with a picture on my Facebook the other day that I feel fits this situation. The picture read, "We live in a generation of emotionally weak people. Everything has to be watered down because it is offensive, even the truth."

 

It's not a matter of being destructive. It is a matter of giving fair warning to those that may otherwise feel entitled. A fair warning of the truth.

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There are a million ways to work the 'dragoon' angle. From being retired, having left, being trained by a retired dragon, etc. I personally believe those are acceptable ideas. If others do not, that's fair. 

 

Now, disagreement is not a reason to be rude or bash on someone's RP. The point of RP is having fun and work together in different stories involving our characters with other people's characters. If the label of 'Special Snowflake' is now attached to people who RP dragoons, then that's alienating people over something considerably trivial and that can be worked around. 

 

If someone claims to be say... the Azure Dragoon, then yeah, I will raise my brow too and won't be too thrilled to interact with that person. But if someone says something like: "I was a dragoon, but retired some years ago." or "I left the order after the Dragonsong War ended." I think that's fine.

 

I think its fine for former dragoons to teach a new generation and if they want pass their soulstones to them. I think Drachen armors can also be passed down to the next generation. Those are objects. Skills can be taught. 

 

The most important thing, lore/IC aside, is to be respectful. If you don't like someone's RP, that's fine. That's not an excuse to bash them for their choices, their character or how they RP. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and a right to express it politely. If a person doesn't want to interact with Dragoon players because they want to adhere to the Lorebook like its the holiest book in the Realm, go for it. Just remain polite and don't take the fun of others, please.

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The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

 

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

 

I, personally, disagree. I would rather be told flat out that whatever it is I'm choosing to do will have some sort of consequence. Of course, again, this is personal opinion.

 

However, destructive or not, it is the truth. As you said yourself, several people in this thread alone have commented whether they would or would not interact with particular concepts.

 

I see it more as a heads up, particularly to those that feel entitled. Namely, those that think that they deserve to receive RP no matter what their character concept might be. I daresay there are a handful of said people in this very thread.

 

There was a post with a picture on my Facebook the other day that I feel fits this situation. The picture read, "We live in a generation of emotionally weak people. Everything had to be watered down because it is offensive, even the truth."

 

It's not a matter of being destructive. It is a matter of giving fair warning to those that may otherwise feel entitled. A fair warning of the truth.

The RPC is not Balmung, or any other server with RPers. It may come as a shock to know that players rejected by this community still find a lot of RP. The idea that "if you play x, you'll be shunned" is certainly true. Except in the case of many members here. Except when dealing with non RPC players. Except when you're RPing a Dragoon and the retcon flattens them unexpectedly. For an ironclad truth it can't really have a capital T and it certainly has a lot of holes, which begs the question of what purpose it serves. It's certainly not for the sake of the new RPer, because those players described wouldn't have associated with them anyway. Privare conversation often enough reflects a degree of contempt behind the advice. Even when it doesn't it's still not a useful chargen tool. It's not for the sake of the community, nebulous as that idea is. Who does this sobering "dose of reality" serve then?

 

I find it interesting too that the people who complain about sensitivity are the first to cry foul when called out on the real purpose behind their helpful advice. Some are so sensitive about their "brutal honesty" they've sworn off this forum entirely.

 

Regarding the age of characters, if it's good enough for most fiction it's good enough for RP. People like stories about the young and talented. Being older is cool too and has novelty. I certainly appreciate it even when I don't do it.

 

Really my only stance that matters is focused around expanding the world rather than shrinking it. Shrinking the world unnecessarily through encouraging a literalist interpretation of the lore; does it actually serve anyone? Just like how the change to the number of Dragoons is seen as unreasonable and unprecedented even with Black Mage suffering similarly before. How much is the ooc distinctiveness of a concept actually worth when you play with a tiny fraction of the server at once? It's unlikely there will be as many Knights Dragoon from now on, and yet is it really fair to fault them for simply being late to the party?

 

I think maybe this could use another topic for better discussion, though.

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The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

 

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

 

Sometimes I feel like common sense gets dropped in rp. No matter that it's a pretend world, you're still dealing with people.

 

I read a lot of fantasy books. Do I expect everyone to want to talk about them with me? No.

 

I watch a lot of Asian romcoms. Do I expect everyone to want to watch them with me? No.

 

I like my food seasoned in certain ways. Do I expect everyone to enjoy eating that food that I so painstakingly made? No.

 

I enjoy going to the local teahouse more than any other place. Do I expect everyone to want to go with me? No.

 

 

It's perfectly fine to enjoy what you enjoy. But no matter what you do there will be people who will not want to do it with you. They deserve to have fun, just like you. And it's good to remind people of that before they have a hard time finding people to play with -- encouragement and forewarning can go a long way for longevity.

 

With any social activity, you have to work to find your place. You're never (or, at least, very, very rarely) going to walk in somewhere and have oodles of people clamoring for your time and attention right off the bat. It takes time to build connections, especially if you have an off the wall idea you'd need to pitch right to people to avoid alienating them. And really, knowing upfront that this or that idea might face resistance is, to me, far more helpful than a 'yeah, go for it!' that implies everyone and anyone would be happy to work with it.

 

Social situations can be alienating and cruel. RP can be especially so, considering that creative ideas tend to ... leave people vulnerable. I'd much rather arm with knowledge than give them no warning at all.

 

 

And that goes for dragoons or any other thing that people have passionate contentions or strong feelings about.

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I... honestly feel like I already answered those questions you asked, Caspar, but I will try to go point by point through your post in an attempt to clarify. This is not meant as offense or disrespect, just clarification for points I think you may have missed or misread.

 

The RPC is not Balmung, or any other server with RPers.

I don't feel I made a claim saying that it was.. I am well aware that those that frequent the RPC either as simply a lurker or even a poster are but a small fraction of the total Balmung (and other servers) player population.

 

It may come as a shock to know that players rejected by this community still find a lot of RP. 

It honestly doesn't. I am well aware of players that don't even know of this site's existence that still find a lot of RP. 

 

The idea that "if you play x, you'll be shunned" is certainly true. Except in the case of many members here. Except when dealing with non RPC players. Except when you're RPing a Dragoon and the retcon flattens them unexpectedly.

I'm personally not sure how those are considered exceptions when they still would have the same circumstances in each case.

 

The player in question decides to bend/break the lore in some fashion. Other players that are not comfortable with bending/breaking will likely avoid interacting with said player. Their membership to this site or lack thereof doesn't come into play, there.

 

Those that bend/break the lore run the "risk" of running off players that enjoying staying within the lore's boundaries. And yes, the roles can be switched as has been evident in this thread and other threads on this site. 

 

For an ironclad truth it can't really have a capital T and it certainly has a lot of holes, which begs the question of what purpose it serves. It's certainly not for the sake of the new RPer, because those players described wouldn't have associated with them anyway.

 

"I see it more as a heads up, particularly to those that feel entitled. Namely, those that think that they deserve to receive RP no matter what their character concept might be. I daresay there are a handful of said people in this very thread."

 

It serves as a warning to those that may otherwise feel entitled, as I stated.

 

Privare conversation often enough reflects a degree of contempt behind the advice. Even when it doesn't it's still not a useful chargen tool. It's not for the sake of the community, nebulous as that idea is.

 

Forgive me, but I don't get your point here. People speaking in private about others not in their circle? This is... new... bad...? 

 

Who does this sobering "dose of reality" serve then? 

 

Again, as mentioned above, those that would otherwise feel entitled.

 

I find it interesting too that the people who complain about sensitivity are the first to cry foul when called out on the real purpose behind their helpful advice. Some are so sensitive about their "brutal honesty" they've sworn off this forum entirely. 

 

I can't speak to this as I don't necessarily have evidence one way or another.

 

I do, however, get the feeling that this was meant as a jab at myself which, honestly, I don't recall crying foul. I simply explained and clarified... and even stated that I don't expect people to agree with me.

 

Really my only stance that matters is focused around expanding the world rather than shrinking it. Shrinking the world unnecessarily through encouraging a literalist interpretation of the lore; does it actually serve anyone?

 

I honestly don't feel like adhering to the lore "shrinks" the world in any way, but if that is the way you wish to see it, so be it. 

 

As to who it serves? Those who enjoy roleplaying within the boundaries of the lore. Those that like keeping themselves within the guidelines and rules of another person's narrative.

 

Just like how the change to the number of Dragoons is seen as unreasonable and unprecedented even with Black Mage suffering similarly before. How much is the ooc distinctiveness of a concept actually worth when you play with a tiny fraction of the server at once?

 

It is sudden and unreasonable, but it's not our world... it's SE's. 

 

As to its worth? Are you wanting a monetary value? 

 

I would argue that those that like to stick within the lore find it quite worthwhile to stick to the lore. 

 

It's unlikely there will be as many Knights Dragoon from now on, and yet is it really fair to fault them for simply being late to the party?

 

Depending upon the player's stance on the lore, then yes... it is fair to fault them. If they wish to stick to the lore and the lore has been presented as thus.... then... yeah, it's their own fault for turning their nose up at the lore that they're trying to follow.

 

If they don't care about the lore, then how are you going to fault them for not following it? If they don't care... then they don't care. They can have their fun among their circle of friends that don't care.

 

Again... this leads to that whole policing/witch hunt thing that seems to be on everyone's mind. No one is going to get on and hunt people down for not following the lore. But if you claim to follow the lore, are given evidence from the people that write the lore, then turn around and say ,"nah, ignoring that." ... I don't know what else you should expect other than being told, "Hey... you're doing it wrong."

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