The Power of Magic

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

Ok so I did a quick search through the forums and I couldn't see any threads about this but please link me to one if i'm being blind.

 

On to the actual question, Just how powerful are the mages of Eorzia and the world?  I'm not talking about the limitation of game mechanics but what are mages able to do for RP say?  This goes for all forms of magic and not just black/white mage.  

 

Also how inherently magical are other classes abilities if at all?  I have seen threads in other games arguing over class power and taking the mechanics as balancing factors only as literal arguments for powers in lore.

[Merri]

Well, let's start with Black Magic as an example. Black Magic is powerful. We saw a Black Mage (Albeit wielding a Stardust rod, which is one of the most powerful mediums a black mage could hope to obtain) destroy a Reaper with a single flare. It did, however, take him a good amount of time to summon up that flare.

 

So it has it's pros and cons. If one is a talented enough Black Mage, they could decimate a person. The problem is that they have to stand still and channel that spell, and quite frankly if they're alone they wouldn't be able to cast many powerful spells if their opponent wasn't rooted or hindered in any way. As soon as some one was on them, they'd be more or less defenseless.

 

So a lot of a Black Mage's power stems from the company they keep. Otherwise, they might be on par with say.. ..a Monk, for example. Or a Dragoon, or anything else. They might have some stopping power behind their spells, but they wouldn't be nearly as strong if they were keeping light on their feet and wanted casting times to remain low.

 

Black Magic is casted through chanting, so having a quick tongue probably helps as well. It's why silence has always prevented casting, since it removes one's ability to speak. I like to think the Black Mage AF was sort of designed with this in mind, too. It covers the mouth, potentially obscuring it from your enemies view.

[Asyria]

I barely played 2.0 yet but I remember Gladiators in 1.0 could do fire sword attacks fairly early and pugilisits have some chakra stuffs and  magic seems to be used by pretty much everyone one way or another and to one degree or another.

Of course not everyone is a Louisoix, but I guess you could call it a "high magic" world.

 

And speaking of Louisoix, a shield that can ALMOST protect you from an angry Bahamut is pretty amazing, not to mention sending a whole bunch of people in the future.

 

As far as what can be done in RP... I'd look and my character's abilities, look back on my past experiences in other games, make a quick judgment about what I want my character to do in comparison to my their in-game abilities, and go for it if it seems fairly equivalent. Gotta take the FF lore into account though!

 

Easy example: I want my character to magically start a fire. My character can cast Fira. No problem.

 

Another example: I want my character to magically fly. My character can cast Fira. In D&D, you can Fly with a 2nd level spell.. Fireball is a 3rd level one... Fire is the second fire spell out of three (Fire, Fira, Firaga)... seems fair. BUT! I don't think I ever seen any Final Fantasy character fly with a spell... hmmkay, I guess I can't.

 

Last one: My character is covered in dirt, I want them to get clean. They can cast some kinda Wind spell. I figure they can use wind magic to dust themselve off, though it will mess up her hair, lulz.

 

TL;DR: I don't have any easy answer!

[Magellan]

I think there would be mages of all different powers in Eorzea, depending in their aptitude and years of study; from those who could barely light a fireplace, to those unable to control their talents, to highly powerful Gandalf types. Its all in how much detail you put into your character, making the how and why of their powers believable.

 

FfXIVs unique class change system opens the door for warriors and lancers who would also be skilled at magic, but for every strength a character has, I feel there should be an equal opposing weakness.

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

Thanks for the answers guys, that was pretty much how I was seeing it as well.  However with the bit about other classes Magellen it was more were any of a lancers abilities that could be considered magical rather than if they could use magic at all.  Asyria kind of answered that I guess so I shall wait and see what 2.0 brings as I haven't really looked at many classes skills.

 

It was this angry post within the wow forums that made me start thinking about what a mage could actually do in FFXIV.  Yes more posts from other forums.

[Alothia]

I like to liken the way that the mages cast in FFXIV to that of the weaving of the One Power in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There are different levels of casters, people have different talents. People can take the different elements and apply them in different ways...*shrug* I think that the world allows for all sorts of magic users~

Here's the link to the wiki article about the One Power in the Wheel of Time universe. Makes sense to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Power

[Torvhan]

I do think magic is quite prevalent in the world, but the one thing I don't see much is mundane uses for it. I don't think I've ever seen someone fly in any of the games with out some other assistance, the enemy black mages in IX used wings, we have seen that magic can make things float, which is how a couple of the airships have operated (FF1.)

 

It seems that a majority of magic is used for combat, protection and healing in the series. While people turn to technology for mundane tasks.

[Naunet]

Also how inherently magical are other classes abilities if at all?  I have seen threads in other games arguing over class power and taking the mechanics as balancing factors only as literal arguments for powers in lore.

I've only tried conjurer, gladiator, and pugilist in the beta so far, but I did get the impression that there is at least a little bit of "magic" behind certain abilities in the latter two, even if it is extremely rudimentary in a class like gladiator. I don't have a list of class abilities in front of me, otherwise I would be able to give a much more specific, detailed answer. You're making me want to roll up one of each class and go through each available spell in search of these things!

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

Yeah I agree that technology is the main choice for mundane tasks in Eorzia but not in the world as a whole.  Looking at you Garlean Empire, Magitek might be high technology but it is fused with magic obviously.

[Merri]

Yeah I agree that technology is the main choice for mundane tasks in Eorzia but not in the world as a whole.  Looking at you Garlean Empire, Magitek might be high technology but it is fused with magic obviously.

 

Actually, not entirely. Full blooded Garleans as a whole are born with a passive ineptitude for the use of magic. Most can't cast at all, and those that can would probably struggle immensely getting off even the simplest fire spell. Those Garleans we see in-game that do cast magic aren't from Garlemald proper. They are conscripts from territories that have been conquered by the empire.

 

Magitek is crafted through the use of machine and aether, believe it or not. The technology is just machinery, however it's given such strength because of it's power source - pure, concentrated Aether in a liquid form. It's called Ceruleum, and can be obtained either from the ground itself with special mining equipment, or harvested directly from crystal deposits.

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

Yeah I agree that technology is the main choice for mundane tasks in Eorzia but not in the world as a whole.  Looking at you Garlean Empire, Magitek might be high technology but it is fused with magic obviously.

 

Actually, not entirely. Full blooded Garleans as a whole are born with a passive ineptitude for the use of magic. Most can't cast at all, and those that can would probably struggle immensely getting off even the simplest fire spell. Those Garleans we see in-game that do cast magic aren't from Garlemald proper. They are conscripts from territories that have been conquered by the empire.

 

Magitek is crafted through the use of machine and aether, believe it or not. The technology is just machinery, however it's given such strength because of it's power source - pure, concentrated Aether. It's called Ceruleum, and can be obtained either from the ground itself with special mining equipment, or harvested directly from crystal deposits.

Ohhh what a slap down

 

Thanks, always looking to increase my knowledge, thats really quite interesting that they generally can't cast magic.

[Merri]

Ohhh what a slap down

 

Thanks, always looking to increase my knowledge, thats really quite interesting that they generally can't cast magic.

 

Yup yup. Not all Garleans are born this way, but a majority are. To quote SE~

 

"The majority of Garlean citizens have a natural ineptitude for the workings of magic. To overcome this innate disadvantage, they have developed technology known as "magitek." Perhaps the most common example of magitek would be the ceruleum-fueled devices found in the Empire's machina. The arcane technologies created by exiled Garlean engineers are slowly, but surely, taking root across Eorzea. It will not be long before a marriage between magitek and the mine carts of Ul'dah results in a web of iron causeways spanning the very wastes themselves!"

[Naunet]

Magitek is crafted through the use of machine and aether, believe it or not. The technology is just machinery, however it's given such strength because of it's power source - pure, concentrated Aether in a liquid form. It's called Ceruleum, and can be obtained either from the ground itself with special mining equipment, or harvested directly from crystal deposits.

.... It's sourcestone!

 

Further encouraging my heady desire for an ARR/Rift crossover. *is bricked*

[Eva]

I like to liken the way that the mages cast in FFXIV to that of the weaving of the One Power in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There are different levels of casters, people have different talents. People can take the different elements and apply them in different ways...*shrug* I think that the world allows for all sorts of magic users~

Here's the link to the wiki article about the One Power in the Wheel of Time universe. Makes sense to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Power

This is primarily where I've derived Eva's use of magic from as well - however that's also because 'weaving' is something she can relate to. I've also felt emoting "casts a cure spell" is just rather bland. It may be that this is something that will just vary from one mage to the next and is highly subjective to the RPer and the character. Regardless, that is great literature!

 

Another point of discussion I'll go ahead and introduce along this same vein is I've heard most mages learn through some sort of education process, whether it be formal instruction with other more experienced mages, reading from books, or what have you. I've known one other to RP this similarly to what Eva does as having a sort of natural born talent for it (in Eva's case white magic). This is akin to what a Wilder would have been described like in the Jordan books. Her block is that when she starts to think about what she's doing rather than just allowing it to happen, the efforts usually collapse. For her it's very much an empathy thing and more about "feel, don't think." I've seen nothing specific to either confirm or deny this is appropriate for the lore of the game or not.

[FreelanceWizard]

Based on the ARR story arcs, it seems that most magic is indeed spell-based in the setting. That jives with the formal study that many use (but is not required) to learn to work magic. We also know that some people have an innate talent for and ability to use certain forms of magic...

 

 

 

...such as the child-Conjurer in their class story line who intuitively casts healing spells, but at the cost of her own life.

 

 

 

What we don't know is how "formulaic" magic is. While I think it's a safe bending of lore to say that you can modulate the effects of spells downward (for example, if you know Fire, you can go from "incinerating ball of pain" to "light a pipe"), we don't really have lore support on what kind of power casters have to go laterally (for example, from "light a pipe" to "create a fireworks display" or even further to "warm armor" or "boil water").

 

Another thing we know from mechanics is that the power of magic is affected by the instrument used to channel it. With no such artifice, magic is comparatively weak (though still enough to cause injury).

 

As for other classes' abilities, I don't recall any of them (Jobs aside) being inherently magical in lore, but I think that's a grey area. I'd say most of them fall into the category of "extraordinary" abilities -- possibly empowered by an innate and intuitive channelling of Aether, but not necessarily inherently magical. I will say that I'm not entirely conversant with all the class storylines in ARR, though.

 

So, all in all, I think there's a lot grey areas in the lore on how magic actually works, and so lots of different equally valid interpretations are possible.

 

This thread is particularly interesting to me because I've been thinking of starting an LS that's a semi-secret society for spellcasters. Seeing a lot of interpretations means that there's some interesting RP that concept can tap.

[Asyria]

Magitek is crafted through the use of machine and aether, believe it or not. The technology is just machinery, however it's given such strength because of it's power source - pure, concentrated Aether in a liquid form. It's called Ceruleum, and can be obtained either from the ground itself with special mining equipment, or harvested directly from crystal deposits.

.... It's sourcestone!

 

Further encouraging my heady desire for an ARR/Rift crossover. *is bricked*

Just add Iron Kingdom's mechanika into the mix for epic steampunk techomagic.

[Corin Winterborne]

I think the big question is "What is magic?"

 

From my understanding, magic is the manipulation of aether to cause an effect.  I don't think there's enough information yet to know everything that aether can effect.  Some examples are:  your mage classes, aehteryte stones (teleportation), and synthesis.

 

I also recall that the opening cutscenes mentions you feeling discomfort, after you wake up from your 'dream.'  The merchant comments that "it's the aether."  This seems to imply that Eorzea is rich in Aether, where  other areas of Hydaelyn may not be. This may be why the Garleans have an ineptitude for magic: there's not enough aether for them to effectively manipulate.

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

Magitek is crafted through the use of machine and aether, believe it or not. The technology is just machinery, however it's given such strength because of it's power source - pure, concentrated Aether in a liquid form. It's called Ceruleum, and can be obtained either from the ground itself with special mining equipment, or harvested directly from crystal deposits.

.... It's sourcestone!

 

Further encouraging my heady desire for an ARR/Rift crossover. *is bricked*

Just add Iron Kingdom's mechanika into the mix for epic steampunk techomagic.

Think I just fainted...

[Naunet]

This seems to imply that Eorzea is rich in Aether, where  other areas of Hydaelyn may not be. This may be why the Garleans have an ineptitude for magic: there's not enough aether for them to effectively manipulate.

Or Eorzeans have developed some evolutionary aptitude for dealing with an overabundance with aether via channeling it through magic, that Garleans simply haven't had the opportunity to develop due to a lack of environmental stressors.

 

The way you can get aether sickness makes me wonder if one could develop some kind of aether-gas-weapon and poison a whole bunch of unsuspecting people...

[Khaze'to Zhwan]

This seems to imply that Eorzea is rich in Aether, where  other areas of Hydaelyn may not be. This may be why the Garleans have an ineptitude for magic: there's not enough aether for them to effectively manipulate.

Or Eorzeans have developed some evolutionary aptitude for dealing with an overabundance with aether via channeling it through magic, that Garleans simply haven't had the opportunity to develop due to a lack of environmental stressors.

 

The way you can get aether sickness makes me wonder if one could develop some kind of aether-gas-weapon and poison a whole bunch of unsuspecting people...

 

Magic power levels to WMD, terror weapons and chemical warfare.

 

Boy, That escalated quickly.

[Naunet]

Magic power levels to WMD, terror weapons and chemical warfare.

 

Boy, That escalated quickly.

You can't deny, that would be pretty badass!

[FreelanceWizard]

I also recall that the opening cutscenes mentions you feeling discomfort, after you wake up from your 'dream.'  The merchant comments that "it's the aether."  This seems to imply that Eorzea is rich in Aether, where  other areas of Hydaelyn may not be. This may be why the Garleans have an ineptitude for magic: there's not enough aether for them to effectively manipulate.

 

That's an interesting idea (as is Naunet's mirror interpretation).

 

I'd also suggest that it may be that some people (or all people) react poorly to large amounts of Aether until they adapt to it -- similar to people getting altitude sickness until they adapt. Or, perhaps, it's just a common turn of phrase for sickness, similar to how we say "you'll catch your death from that chill." (Though, personally, I think this last idea is pretty far-fetched. )

[Tivahlt]

I'd also suggest that it may be that some people (or all people) react poorly to large amounts of Aether until they adapt to it -- similar to people getting altitude sickness until they adapt. Or, perhaps, it's just a common turn of phrase for sickness, similar to how we say "you'll catch your death from that chill." (Though, personally, I think this last idea is pretty far-fetched. )

It's mentioned in the beginning of the THM quest line that some people have more natural talent for magic while others have none at all...perhaps the people who get aether sickness (us) are ones that are naturally inclined to the aetheric arts (since all PCs can learn magic, and in the storyline spoilers spoilers spoilers) and therefore have some kind of reaction to larger concentrations of the stuff until they acclimate to the new aether levels, like your altitude sickness example.

 

On topic, I'd probably also go with your earlier ideas for the most part.

 

I would imagine that if you know a basic type of magic (fire, healing, water, etc.) then you can do more mundane things with it, but not necessarily different things with it. For instance, someone who knows water can create water to clean themselves off after a bloody battle, but might not be able to separate water from another substance (like poison) as that requires some pretty delicate re-workings of the fabric of time and space. In essence, if it is part of the original spell's function (to create something through magic, be it a bolt of lightning or a blast of fire) then it can theoretically work, but trying to manipulate what is already there would be different. Of course, I always go by the rule of "if it's underpowered and ultimately does not change the game itself, go ahead and do it." So if you were a Thaumaturge that can cast Firaga and just wanted to make the room a few degrees warmer, I'd roll with it.

 

I also agree that skills from DoW classes aren't inherently magical, but being the special snowflakes that we are we can unconsciously manipulate a small bit of aether to augment our physical skills. Otherwise, I have no idea how I can throw my axe at an enemy and still have it.

[FreelanceWizard]

Of course, I always go by the rule of "if it's underpowered and ultimately does not change the game itself, go ahead and do it." So if you were a Thaumaturge that can cast Firaga and just wanted to make the room a few degrees warmer, I'd roll with it.

 

At my tabletop circle (and earlier in CoH), we had a rule we indelicately called the "Cool Shit Clause." It's basically what you just said. I believe the actual formulation we used was something like, "If all players involved think the effect is cool, doesn't offer a game or story advantage, and plausibly works with what you've already shown you can do, you can do it (for free, if there's normally an associated cost)."

[Amadeus]

A lot of interesting concepts in this thread.  The idea that the Garleans as a people are generally inept with magic suggests that it is more intuitive than formulaic and that one can't simply learn it as they would some other skill.