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Seriphyn

Paladins!

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Hallowed Grounds and Spirits Within kind of hint at some kind of spiritual or holy power. However, they are just names and there's nothing in lore linking Paladins to the divine or holy in any direct way. The skill names might just be fancy labels, in-universe, because they are really flashy moves.

 

Personally, I just find it lamentable that they paid homage to the shitty movie that almost destroyed Square as a company with the name of a Paladin skill. The Spirits Within was Chaotic Terribad.

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Hallowed Grounds and Spirits Within kind of hint at some kind of spiritual or holy power. However, they are just names and there's nothing in lore linking Paladins to the divine or holy in any direct way. The skill names might just be fancy labels, in-universe, because they are really flashy moves.

 

Personally, I just find it lamentable that they paid homage to the shitty movie that almost destroyed Square as a company with the name of a Paladin skill. The Spirits Within was Chaotic Terribad.

 

:lol:

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On paladin chat, I play a Paladin who I RP as an actual member of the sultansworn(not a free paladin), and like many have said, to me that doesn't mean lawful good in the traditional D&D sense. My character first and foremost put's the safety of the Sultanate, Ul'dah and it's citizens above basically all else. So things like murder, blackmail or torture, are not completely out of the question, if they are needed to support the sultanate. My character has never done any of these things, but they are not off the table for me RPwise. It also leads to my character not really caring overly much about bad events happening outside the jurisdiction of the city.

 

It is my opinion that free-paladins would actually be more moral than an actual serving sultansworn, as they can follow their code without making compromises. The Paladin questline backs up this view, as the serving sultansworn were quite capable of committing bad acts in order to further they felt was the interests of the city, and the free paladin was shown to be above such things.

 

So yeah overall I view the sultansworn as closer to the FBI or CIA, they are a relatively incorruptible force of order in the city, but do not represent some cosmic force of good.

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It is my opinion that free-paladins would actually be more moral than an actual serving sultansworn, as they can follow their code without making compromises.

 

This also means they can be less moral, though. The 'dishonored' paladin we see in the storyline is only someone whose moral code kept him away from corruption. But free paladins do not have any kind of regulative entity keeping them in check (or corrupting them). They can go both ways.

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It is my opinion that free-paladins would actually be more moral than an actual serving sultansworn, as they can follow their code without making compromises.

 

This also means they can be less moral, though. The 'dishonored' paladin we see in the storyline is only someone whose moral code kept him away from corruption. But free paladins do not have any kind of regulative entity keeping them in check (or corrupting them). They can go both ways.

 

I agree to a certain extent, but the storyline implies that Paladins often become free paladins because they feel that the politics and moral grayness of the sultansworn is tarnishing their oath. While yes, I think free paladins can turn 'evil', I feel like that it isn't a particularly common occurrence, since without a belief in doing good and helping others they probably wouldn't be a free paladin to begin with.

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Since being a free paladin doesn't seem to grant you any kind of payment, I would agree that people who become free paladins will, most likely, do so for the sake of helping others. However, you can believe in helping others, join a group that does exactly that and still find yourself taking and justifying evil actions:

 

Both a Sultarnsworn and a free paladin, no matter how much they dislike politics, could pick a group of brigands and decide that torturing them to find their leader's plan is justificable because of the greater good ("We torture these brigands today but we'll catch their leader or ruin their plan, saving many innocent lives").

 

If this does or does not make you evil could be discussed, but the point is that we shouldn't think that the Sultansworn are inherently more propense than free paladins to evil or unlawful actions than free paladins because of the politics involved in their organization.

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Again I agree that in a personal sense Sultansworn and Free Paladins are likely equally moral. However sultansworn can be given orders to do morally grey things, and they have little choice in the matter. I would think that in general, such tasks would be relegated to the Brass Blades or the Flames, but it is quite plausible that sultansworn could do the dirty business of the Sulatana. I feel like this makes for a rather interesting dynamic, as on the surface they are supposed to be paragons of justice, but at the same time they could be the ones stabbing you to death in an alley if the Sultana orders it. Thankfully the current sultana seems to be rather compassionate, but as others have said, Sultansworn have probably been more like KGB type secret police at various times in the past.

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I think that, again, this comes down to the idea that the Sultansworn and/or free paladins are upholding a particularly Ul'dahn concept of law, order and good.

 

Plato argued that that which we call good is merely that which everyone desires. In the case of Ul'dah, "everyone" really means the Sultana and the Syndicate, and their desires largely center around economic flow and the maintenance of the status quo, power-wise.

 

In other words, I think it's entirely justifiable for a Sultansworn or free paladin to resort to things like assassination or torture in order to benefit the greater good.

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My character first and foremost put's the safety of the Sultanate, Ul'dah and it's citizens above basically all else. So things like murder, blackmail or torture, are not completely out of the question, if they are needed to support the sultanate. 

 

Probably the key thing about the Sultansworn, yeah. In-character, Kale would have no patience for goody-two-shoes free paladins because of this bit in particular (even if my character sorta goes towards LG)

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Necroing a bit, saw three free paladin RPers in the same room just now. I wonder if one could argue a 'devaluation' of the paladin tradition since it seems very common in-character?

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Necroing a bit, saw three free paladin RPers in the same room just now. I wonder if one could argue a 'devaluation' of the paladin tradition since it seems very common in-character?

You could argue that, but it seems clear that free paladins are not held to the standard of Sultansworn. It's like the difference between someone who took a first aid class, and a paramedic. I see free paladin as an aspect of a character, but it doesn't have to define them. Sultansworn imo, should define a character, (my character sometimes refers to herself a "dog of the sultanate") and really limits how they can act.

 

Also the whole point of free paladins is to have lots of trained people that Ul'dah can call in in an emergency, sort of like military reservists. Having many of them around seems to mean the program is working.

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Question for you, Seriphyn: Since Free Paladins aren't really bound to protect the Sultana and instead follow their own moral code - what would your ideal Free Paladin be like?

 

In my mind, it made sense to me that most (but not all) Free Paladins veer towards the more goodie-goodie range (though not exactly the DnD definition of 'Lawful Good'). After all, if you're a Sultansworn teaching uninitiated men and women your secret art handed down through the centuries - you probably are going to want to teach it to people who seem like good, honourable folk who will work to protect Ul'dah and its people instead of the person most likely to go on a murderous rampage through your city using the abilities that you taught them.

 

Or is this more about the lack of diversity amongst Free Paladin RP?

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I don't really have any strong OOC feelings about free paladins and all that, it's purely just for material to RP. My character is a patriotic traditionalist, and he felt that the Paladin armour was the most elite armour that only the most loyal Ul'dahns could wear. Now that it can be worn by anyone deemed 'worthy' by Captain Jenlyns, he finds it offensive.

 

Though if I were to answer Tiergan's question regardless of that...I don't really know, actually. I would be happy to see more diversity, though, as there are a lot of straight-up lawful good D&D paladins; some seem to have glossed over the Ul'dahn origins of the job completely, leaving it a generic paladin. Guess this is similar to people RPing generic dragoons rather than draw on the Ishgardian lore of it.

 

But that goes into the territory of telling people what to RP, which I'm not really interested in. My own preferences of what I'd like to see does not mean I would not RP with free paladins.

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My opinion meshes with a lot here, that trying to shoehorn FFXIV Paladins into the D&D mold... or even any previous Final Fantasy mold... is a mistake.

 

In MOST fantasy lore, Paladins are usually an already-ancient order, with well established traditions and a strong independence from any one nation or ruler. But in Eorzea, I think they are a more recent thing, a martial style created by the Sultansworn. This means they are a creation of Ul'Dah, and are still very much evolving.

 

Right now, the Paladins are in strife, because of an ideological split. You have the Sultansworn, who give their allegiance to the Sultana, and some who feel that their allegiance is to the greatest power in Ul'Dah, not necessarily the Sultana herself.

 

Then you have Solkzagyl, who is of the belief that being a Paladin is something greater than being a royal guard, that a true Paladin holds honor and his beliefs in what is right and true above allegiances to transient power. And he is opposed strongly.

 

There is no divine blessing or selection going on like with Cecil (Though that is certainly possible, it's not required). Paladins, unlike many of the other advanced classes, do not draw their power from a connection to a higher power. They're just incredibly, impossibly stubborn. And so you could legitimately rp a Paladin as whatever you want, though the bias is going to be towards honor and duty, since the ones who train in Paladin martial skills are biased towards that.

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 You have the Sultansworn, who give their allegiance to the Sultana, and some who feel that their allegiance is to the greatest power in Ul'Dah, not necessarily the Sultana herself.

 

That is actually a really interesting angle, that I had not really considered before. The sultansworn do have a very similar position to the Praetorian guard in Rome. The Praetorians started out by guarding emperors, but since no emperor could survive long without their protection, they eventually started picking them. Since the the upper floors of Ul'dah are essentially flooded with sultansworn, it's very likely they have some sort of active political role in Ul'dah.

 

The sultan wouldn't have to even actively do anything, simply by withdrawing their protection it would signal that an individual was incredibly vulnerable to Ul'dah's countless knives.

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It seems like, if one really wanted to play up the whole "religious warrior" archetype that D&D paladins espouse, playing a particularly devout knight of Ishgard might be an option. Granted, I suppose such a character would likely not be called a "paladin" as that seems to be specifically an Ul'dahn title, but still, it seems likely that the Archbishop might have his own Templars or something similar. Thoughts?

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It seems like, if one really wanted to play up the whole "religious warrior" archetype that D&D paladins espouse, playing a particularly devout knight of Ishgard might be an option. Granted, I suppose such a character would likely not be called a "paladin" as that seems to be specifically an Ul'dahn title, but still, it seems likely that the Archbishop might have his own Templars or something similar. Thoughts?

 

Given that many of the guards in Ishguard wear Templar armor? I think this is quite reasonable.

 

Thematically, the Ishguardian Dragoons (Not THE Holy Dragoon, but the Dragoon Knights) are much closer to traditional Paladins. Deeply devoted to Halone, locked in a war with an enemy they view as demonic, and very concerned with divine right, honor and justice.

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 You have the Sultansworn, who give their allegiance to the Sultana, and some who feel that their allegiance is to the greatest power in Ul'Dah, not necessarily the Sultana herself.

 

That is actually a really interesting angle, that I had not really considered before. The sultansworn do have a very similar position to the Praetorian guard in Rome. The Praetorians started out by guarding emperors, but since no emperor could survive long without their protection, they eventually started picking them. Since the the upper floors of Ul'dah are essentially flooded with sultansworn, it's very likely they have some sort of active political role in Ul'dah.

 

The sultan wouldn't have to even actively do anything, simply by withdrawing their protection it would signal that an individual was incredibly vulnerable to Ul'dah's countless knives.

Well, the word "Paladin" does derive from "Palantine", after all :P

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Actually, OOC, I think Solkzagyl is full of shit. The paladins have been Sultansworn royal guards for centuries. By what logic is he drawing these concepts of paladins being anything -but- royal guards, ey? He's been playing D&D and impressing it on the Sultansworn, tsch :P

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Patriotic tradition has limits in my honest opinion. No matter how much Sultansworn may be good or lawful they may be, in the end they have to agree and cooperate with Monetarists if they HAVE to even if it means of going with corrupted power. In Ul'dah politics, there are Royalists and Monetarists of course and Royalists are those who follow the ideals of Nanamo even if it may be new rules applied to all Sultansworns and free paladins. 

 

Now, if the Monetarists are fully corrupting and abusing the system of Sultana and Sultansworn - wouldn't you think that those who are "Lawful/Chaotic Good" people would resign out like Solkzagyl and tell other new paladins to find their way instead of being chained down by corrupted bureaucrats? 

 

Aside from Limsa Lominsa and Gridania, I honestly think Ul'dah has a very complicated political system, yet a lot of corrupted political power inside. Tradition or not, if something goes rotten - you throw it away and find a new one.

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Patriotic tradition has limits in my honest opinion. No matter how much Sultansworn may be good or lawful they may be, in the end they have to agree and cooperate with Monetarists if they HAVE to even if it means of going with corrupted power. In Ul'dah politics, there are Royalists and Monetarists of course and Royalists are those who follow the ideals of Nanamo even if it may be new rules applied to all Sultansworns and free paladins. 

 

Now, if the Monetarists are fully corrupting and abusing the system of Sultana and Sultansworn - wouldn't you think that those who are "Lawful/Chaotic Good" people would resign out like Solkzagyl and tell other new paladins to find their way instead of being chained down by corrupted bureaucrats? 

Aside from Limsa Lominsa and Gridania, I honestly think Ul'dah has a very complicated political system, yet a lot of corrupted political power inside. Tradition or not, if something goes rotten - you throw it away and find a new one.

 

It's likely, but not necessarily the case for all of them. An idealistic few might have notions of changing things for the better from within. Granted, such ideas would make them a number of enemies, but with the right allies - who knows? I'm a big fan of these types of stories. In many settings, you often hear about that kingdom or organization with a reputation for being a bastion of "good" and fairness for all but has seedy characters wreaking havoc for the social norm behind the scenes. Turning that on its head, with the "good" characters being the ones working against the system can be fun, too - albeit no less dangerous.

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Patriotic tradition has limits in my honest opinion. No matter how much Sultansworn may be good or lawful they may be, in the end they have to agree and cooperate with Monetarists if they HAVE to even if it means of going with corrupted power. In Ul'dah politics, there are Royalists and Monetarists of course and Royalists are those who follow the ideals of Nanamo even if it may be new rules applied to all Sultansworns and free paladins. 

 

Now, if the Monetarists are fully corrupting and abusing the system of Sultana and Sultansworn - wouldn't you think that those who are "Lawful/Chaotic Good" people would resign out like Solkzagyl and tell other new paladins to find their way instead of being chained down by corrupted bureaucrats? 

Aside from Limsa Lominsa and Gridania, I honestly think Ul'dah has a very complicated political system, yet a lot of corrupted political power inside. Tradition or not, if something goes rotten - you throw it away and find a new one.

 

It's likely, but not necessarily the case for all of them. An idealistic few might have notions of changing things for the better from within. Granted, such ideas would make them a number of enemies, but with the right allies - who knows? I'm a big fan of these types of stories. In many settings, you often hear about that kingdom or organization with a reputation for being a bastion of law and order but has seedy characters wreaking havoc for the social norm behind the scenes. Turning that on its head can be fun, too - albeit no less dangerous.

 

Definitely, my character Anelia rejoined the leagues of Sultansworn being in charge of investigations and enforcement becoming the prosecutor of crime and punishment. Her new league "Phantom Sweep" will be the ones to try and bring back the former rightful Royalist idea to stop political corruption and clean out some Quicksand bandits if possible. :)

 

This will definitely bring up some corrupted Sultansworns and free paladins who will rise up to this cause and can possibly have a war within the Sultana council.

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This will definitely bring up some corrupted Sultansworns and free paladins who will rise up to this cause and can possibly have a war within the Sultana council.

 

That would be some super-awesome conflict RP if you can get people to play both sides. :) Sultansworn versus Sultansworn, factional battles of words and possibly steel in the streets... that'd be pretty nifty.

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Speaking of tradition, interesting tidbit from The Unending Journey under "Keeping the Oath".

 

In recognition of your deeds, [Jenlyns] bestows upon you the gallant surcoat, sacred armor normally reserved for the most courageous of the Sultansworn. Although this is a violation of long-standing tradition, he believes there is no paladin more deserving of the honor.

 

This means that any character who wears the PLD AF1/2 set for RP must have done something very prestigious for the Sultansworn in-character (easy for them to come up with a reason). But it also opens up their character to being attacked by traditionalists, or perhaps direct their lamentations to Captain Jenlyns instead.

 

In fact, most Sultansworn wear the blue tabard set around Hustings Strip, which isn't available atm. The two royal guards right at the end of the Royal Promenade are adorned in it, which makes sense.

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The tabard is actually white with a blue stripe covering the shoulders and the neck.

I find it very curious that Squee placed the Brass Blade uniform in Wanderer's Palace but forgot to put in game the uniforms of the other law enforcement organizations.

 

Today I checked the Board and bought a bunch of stuff to see if I could replicate the paladin common-wear. I'm sure nobody will be surprised that I failed miserably. The actual models are in game, but they can't match the Sultansworn armor thanks to having only one dye channel.

The closests options I found were the Cotton Tabard (undyeable black parts on the shoulders) and the Hempen Tabard (that has undyeable black sleeves). At least they are low level (16 and 5 respectively) so you can look kinda-sorta like a paladin early on if you want. The boots (Sollerets) are an even bigger problem because all of them dye weirdly, leaving the leather bits untouched in brown, whereas the ones the NPCs wear are blue. So we are all screwed on that part.

The gauntlets they use are in game and the correct parts are dyeable: Cobalt Vambraces. Just dye them blue and nobody will tell the difference.

 

All of this could be fixed if Squee had implemented two dye channels instead of one, or if they had made dungeon armor dyeable. The Hopilte/Explorer Tabard from AK and related dungeons could then be basically the same armor but with reversed colors (blue tabard and white stripe). It would not look exactly the same, but it would have the correct colors.

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