Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers)

[Aya]

The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I was curious!  I still don't know why they don't just make a mercenary group out of the vast majority of them.  I mean, most of the refugees are depicted (in cutscenes/NPCs, anyway) as seemingly hale and hearty adult men and women.  Yet they're just standing around doing nothing?

Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

[LiadansWhisper]

The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I was curious!  I still don't know why they don't just make a mercenary group out of the vast majority of them.  I mean, most of the refugees are depicted (in cutscenes/NPCs, anyway) as seemingly hale and hearty adult men and women.  Yet they're just standing around doing nothing?

Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

 

I'm up for it!

 

You lead the charge, Aya.  *puts flag in your hands*

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

 

I'm really hoping we get this in a patch sometime. I think it'd make an excellent storyline. ...but I can't imagine something like that happening until an expansion, because we'd need more maps. The same could be said for Ishgard. (Maybe entry would require a certain progression of MSQ or something as a flag)

[FreelanceWizard]

I like the Alignment system as a framework.  It's a great place to start!  That or you can use the..crap, I forget the name...there's a vaguely similar system in White Wolf's game system that combines personality traits with a humanity/morality system without bringing "Good" and "evil" into the equation.

 

Yep. D&D alignment (or Palladium alignment, or WoD morality, or what have you) is a really good shorthand for a character's general behavior and outlook, which is why I have a section for it on L'yhta's wiki (CG or Unprincipled, probably about Humanity 5-6ish in oWoD terms because of her enjoyment of mass property damage). I do feel that the WoD system is probably the best fit for settings where good and evil don't really play an objective role, since its degeneration system means that you eventually become inured to lesser "crimes." This is a good fit for the "politician who turns dark over time" story, which I guess is no surprise why it works so well in V:tM and so ineptly in nWoD Mage.

 

What's really interesting is when you get into the implications of the Exalted alignment system, wherein your strengths ultimately turn into weaknesses, or some game that I can't recall right now where you have Drives to achieve ends, but the more you're driven, the more you do wicked things to get your way.

 

At this point I'm terribly off-topic.

[111]

The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I was curious!  I still don't know why they don't just make a mercenary group out of the vast majority of them.  I mean, most of the refugees are depicted (in cutscenes/NPCs, anyway) as seemingly hale and hearty adult men and women.  Yet they're just standing around doing nothing?

Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

 

I'm up for it!

 

You lead the charge, Aya.  *puts flag in your hands*

 

*Ifrit comes back with like a billion tempered*

 

Guys... maybe we didnt think this through.

[Kage]

I think they're painting the refugees as needing proper motivation, just wanting to have it thrown into their lap.

 

I personally remember scenes where Ul'dahn citizens were upset by the refugees but that's because they see them as a drain on their resources (*cough*Illegal Immigration*cough). I don't remember complete roadblocks in their way.

 

But you see (Ala Mhigan) refugees who get taken in by the notions of summoning Rhaglr? or them willing to start -violent- protests with arms supplied by

Evil Teledeji imo

for his own agenda.

 

I thought that it was heavily implied that the Domans could not look elsewhere than Ul'dah. NOT SURE WHY, but everyone just says "their internal affairs are ____" but what makes that much different than Ul'dah? Just one primal presence? They -do- have Ifrit who quite HAPPILY tempers everyone and has the Amalj'aa temper people (versus what Ramuh does, what Titan does, what leviathan does - based on the Sahagin "we were forced cause you're taking our breeding grounds) for him.

 

I don't know. I just see Ul'dah as the closest to America as any of the nations can get.

 

But we can't all be humanitarians. Resources are limited and Ul'dah's resources are just that, limited.

[111]

I think they're painting the refugees as needing proper motivation, just wanting to have it thrown into their lap.

 

I personally remember scenes where Ul'dahn citizens were upset by the refugees but that's because they see them as a drain on their resources (*cough*Illegal Immigration*cough). I don't remember complete roadblocks in their way.

 

But you see (Ala Mhigan) refugees who get taken in by the notions of summoning Rhaglr? or them willing to start -violent- protests with arms supplied by

Evil Teledeji imo

for his own agenda.

 

I thought that it was heavily implied that the Domans could not look elsewhere than Ul'dah. NOT SURE WHY, but everyone just says "their internal affairs are ____" but what makes that much different than Ul'dah? Just one primal presence? They -do- have Ifrit who quite HAPPILY tempers everyone and has the Amalj'aa temper people (versus what Ramuh does, what Titan does, what leviathan does - based on the Sahagin "we were forced cause you're taking our breeding grounds) for him.

 

I don't know. I just see Ul'dah as the closest to America as any of the nations can get.

 

But we can't all be humanitarians. Resources are limited and Ul'dah's resources are just that, limited.

 

The primal thing is an interesting side topic. Ifrit seems to be the only truly 'evil' primal, and the only one who would probably destroy eorzea if left alone

It seems most of the other primals could be dealt woth using sufficient diplomacy towards their beast tribe summoners.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

What's really interesting is when you get into the implications of the Exalted alignment system, wherein your strengths ultimately turn into weaknesses, or some game that I can't recall right now where you have Drives to achieve ends, but the more you're driven, the more you do wicked things to get your way.

 

At this point I'm terribly off-topic.

 

off topic response: Exalted's system was amazing. A friend of mine had run a game and I had the joy of being involved. 

 

on topics: Eorzea needs more resources. Let's take back Ala'Mhigo!

[Verad]

Yep. D&D alignment (or Palladium alignment, or WoD morality, or what have you) is a really good shorthand for a character's general behavior and outlook, which is why I have a section for it on L'yhta's wiki (CG or Unprincipled, probably about Humanity 5-6ish in oWoD terms because of her enjoyment of mass property damage). I do feel that the WoD system is probably the best fit for settings where good and evil don't really play an objective role, since its degeneration system means that you eventually become inured to lesser "crimes." This is a good fit for the "politician who turns dark over time" story, which I guess is no surprise why it works so well in V:tM and so ineptly in nWoD Mage.

 

What's really interesting is when you get into the implications of the Exalted alignment system, wherein your strengths ultimately turn into weaknesses, or some game that I can't recall right now where you have Drives to achieve ends, but the more you're driven, the more you do wicked things to get your way.

 

At this point I'm terribly off-topic.

 

But it is an interesting topic! And so there shall be a spin-off.

[Melkire]

Lolorito is a corrupt, scheming, self-interested scumbag that furthers his own well-being at the explicit expense of others' ... and this is, to the extent of my knowledge, supported by the MSQ. 

 

There. I said it. I'm out.

[Verad]

As far as the actual thread topic, choosing between a plutocratic oligarchy in the hands of the Syndicate and a monarchy, however benign in the form of the current Sultana, just seems like choosing different flavors of poison. That's purely from an OOC perspective though.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Lolorito is a corrupt, scheming, self-interested scumbag that furthers his own well-being at the explicit expense of others' ... and this is, to the extent of my knowledge, supported by the MSQ. 

 

There. I said it. I'm out.

This

 

we can uhm and ah all we want about the whys and wherefores, but all evidence provided by cutscenes and quests paints this picture.

[Kage]

I haven't had the time, but can you point explicitly to what ends and what cutscenes etc you are referring to?

 

For example I know what Telediji has done, so I definitely name him.

 

But I don't remember Lolorito-specifics except that he's well spoken against the Domans being there.

 

I don't remember him being named in Sultansworn aka Paladin Questline...?

[111]

Basically I think most of the negative words about Lorilito comes from ardent royalists, however since it's basically a political struggle, you can't really trust everything they say. I also can't think of anything specific Lorilito is supposed to have done. "Not helping people as much as you can" isn't really an evil act, or corrupt. Especially if their not your citizens, and you don't have a responsibility to protect them.

[Erik Mynhier]

Two things.

 

1. Hey Kale, been like forever.

 

2.

DOWN WITH THE SYNDICATE! ALL HAIL OUR LORD AND SOVEREIGN SULTANA NANOMO! /radical monarchist rant

 

[Aduu Avagnar]

I haven't had the time, but can you point explicitly to what ends and what cutscenes etc you are referring to?

 

For example I know what Telediji has done, so I definitely name him.

 

But I don't remember Lolorito-specifics except that he's well spoken against the Domans being there.

 

I don't remember him being named in Sultansworn aka Paladin Questline...?

The quest in the Ul'dah story line involving Wystan, someone who aimed to increase their lot, Lolorito sent his Brass Blades to kill him. In cutscene in the inn room, when the Ascian summons the golem, one of the Brass Blades states:

 

'This ain't part o' the plan! Bloody hells, does Lord Lolorito mean to kill us too!?' before they run off.

 

The text relating to this states:

 

Wystan now understands that he has been marked for death by Lord Lolorito. The ore vein, the Brass Blades, and the golem all appear to have been part of the trap. The merchant promises to do his utmost to hide your involvement, but he also suggests you seek the counsel of Mistress Momodi at the Quicksand, in case Lolorito's spies are already aware of your actions.

 

From this we can ascertain the following. Lolorito is not above killing people, simply because they foil his plans, or even because they are trying to make themselves rich, seeming a case of eliminating the pool of potential rivals, before they can become one.

 

that is the only one I can revisit, but there is another quest around the Horizon area, I will update this with the name of the lalafel involved, which again states iirc that Lolorito himself encourages the corruption.

[TheLastCandle]

In 1.0, it was generally implied that Lolorito was involved with the murder of Niellefresne, who was with the Path of the Twelve/Scions. Also, I recall it being stated that Lolorito was selling arms and such to Garlemald. You don't have to look very hard to find reasons to dislike Lolorito. I'll stop short of saying "evil," but he's a pretty uncool individual.

[111]

Two things.

 

1. Hey Kale, been like forever.

 

2.

DOWN WITH THE SYNDICATE! ALL HAIL OUR LORD AND SOVEREIGN SULTANA NANOMO! /radical monarchist rant

 

 

Um just gotta call this out.

 

Red Wings HQ, a single portrait of our glorious leader.

 

 

Kage and Nat's house, three times the patriotism.

 

 

Do you even royalist bro.

[111]

I haven't had the time, but can you point explicitly to what ends and what cutscenes etc you are referring to?

 

For example I know what Telediji has done, so I definitely name him.

 

But I don't remember Lolorito-specifics except that he's well spoken against the Domans being there.

 

I don't remember him being named in Sultansworn aka Paladin Questline...?

The quest in the Ul'dah story line involving Wystan, someone who aimed to increase their lot, Lolorito sent his Brass Blades to kill him. In cutscene in the inn room, when the Ascian summons the golem, one of the Brass Blades states:

 

'This ain't part o' the plan! Bloody hells, does Lord Lolorito mean to kill us too!?' before they run off.

 

The text relating to this states:

 

Wystan now understands that he has been marked for death by Lord Lolorito. The ore vein, the Brass Blades, and the golem all appear to have been part of the trap. The merchant promises to do his utmost to hide your involvement, but he also suggests you seek the counsel of Mistress Momodi at the Quicksand, in case Lolorito's spies are already aware of your actions.

 

From this we can ascertain the following. Lolorito is not above killing people, simply because they foil his plans, or even because they are trying to make themselves rich, seeming a case of eliminating the pool of potential rivals, before they can become one.

 

that is the only one I can revisit, but there is another quest around the Horizon area, I will update this with the name of the lalafel involved, which again states iirc that Lolorito himself encourages the corruption.

 

This is pretty enlightening, thanks for the info.

[Aduu Avagnar]

In 1.0, it was generally implied that Lolorito was involved with the murder of Niellefresne, who was with the Path of the Twelve/Scions. Also, I recall it being stated that Lolorito was selling Garlemald arms. You don't have to look very hard to find reasons to dislike Lolorito. I'll stop short of saying "evil," but he's a pretty uncool individual.

 

the thing to remember about evil in the D&D sense, is that it is not nescesarily moustache twirling villainy.

 

I quote the following:

 

 Lawful Evil character sees a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and shows a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.

 

Like Lawful Good Paladins, Lawful Evil characters may sometimes find themselves faced with the dilemma of whether to obey law or evil when the two conflict. However, their issues with Law versus Evil are more concerned with "Will I get caught?" versus "How does this benefit me?"

 

 

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

 

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

 

 

Lawful evil creatures consider their alignment to be the best because it combines honor with a dedicated self-interest.

 

Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.

 

 

TV Tropes presents a list of various types of lawful evil.

 

All of these sources state that evil, when associated with the D&D alignment system, is not nescesarily the moustache twirling villain, they can simply be the person who uses the rules to do what he can publicly, whilst doing what they can get away with in private.

[Erik Mynhier]

Two things.

 

1. Hey Kale, been like forever.

 

2.

DOWN WITH THE SYNDICATE! ALL HAIL OUR LORD AND SOVEREIGN SULTANA NANOMO! /radical monarchist rant

 

 

Um just gotta call this out.

 

Red Wings HQ, a single portrait of our glorious leader.

 

 

Kage and Nat's house, three times the patriotism.

 

 

Do you even royalist bro.

[TheLastCandle]

I've played a ton of D&D, so none of that is news to me, really. If I get into all of the qualms I have with D&D's alignment system, not only will it be horribly off-topic, but it'll take all night. So instead, I'll just say that I agree that if Eorzea were a D&D setting, he's probably neutral evil given what we've seen/heard.

 

That doesn't necessarily preclude a lawful neutral organization being in service to him, though, since he is in a position of authority.

[LiadansWhisper]

I've played a ton of D&D, so none of that is news to me, really. If I get into all of the qualms I have with D&D's alignment system, not only will it be horribly off-topic, but it'll take all night. So instead, I'll just say that I agree that if Eorzea were a D&D setting, he's probably neutral evil given what we've seen/heard.

 

That doesn't necessarily preclude a lawful neutral organization being in service to him, though, since he is in a position of authority.

 

That's very true!  And the really excellent evil authority figures are well able to manipulate good organizations without driving them away.

[Aduu Avagnar]

I've played a ton of D&D, so none of that is news to me, really. If I get into all of the qualms I have with D&D's alignment system, not only will it be horribly off-topic, but it'll take all night. So instead, I'll just say that I agree that if Eorzea were a D&D setting, he's probably neutral evil given what we've seen/heard.

 

That doesn't necessarily preclude a lawful neutral organization being in service to him, though, since he is in a position of authority.

oh indeed not, as I made clear in a previous post it will be interesting to see such an organisation in service to such a person, and how they may react to certain tasks set to them.

[Kage]

Question: I think it was pretty evident that the way Raubahn won his way into the Syndicate is by winning... and it seemed pretty implied? if not outright said that Raubahn killed in order to do it. I mean one page says he slay the former owner of one of his blades.

 

But it seemed like killed to get into the Syndicate to back Momodi up. 

 

... what does that make Raubahn?