Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal.

[Roswyn]

This thread makes me think of Yoda.

 

Yoda was a badass Jedi and was way stronger than most Jedi/Sith. He was smaller but it really had no effect on him and he'd still whoop their butts.

 

It could be said that it's because he used Form 4 of Jedi combat (lolnerd) but I like to think it has more to do with an individuals inner fortitude and how it was focused. That's how I tend to look at it in FF too. :cactuar:

[Enteris]

 

Since shantoto came to Eorzea as represented in game, I'm going to go ahead and bring my Galka over as well.

 

Since my "main" has gotten to lvl50 on every fighting class in game and is binding coil ready on each, as represented in game, I'm going to go ahead and roleplay him as being a near master of each of those arts.

Thank you for your facetious comment but I'll respond in kind.

Is your Galka an extremely powerful mage? Is everyone going to react unkindly to the Galka trapezing through the world?

 

Is your "main" a warrior of light that is the special chosen one?

 

I admit to that post being in bad taste, but I will continue along with that line of reasoning for the grins and giggles of it.

 

My galka was actually well geared and leveled as a blm and smn prior to my quitting FFXI, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. Perhaps he just followed Shantoto through her portal(s).

 

As to my main, he is represented in game through all of the quests I've taken him through to be as such, so yes, I suppose he is.

 

Bad taste aside, the idea still stands. As roleplayers we need to take some things in game (Hildebrand et. al.) with a grain of salt to be able to have a solid base to stand on for our roleplay. 

 

As was mentioned before, this game does indeed have influences from anime/comical sources... and it's up to us to realize that those are indeed comical sources, and not canonical lore.

[Gaspard]

What makes that scene with those specific lalafells a comedic punchline? It is a display of immense strength, yes. But from the music playing in the background, to the dialogue, up to the execution, nothing is quite in the same vein as the 'Hildebrandt' questline.

 

Moreso, let's just for the sake of argument go with the notion that the strength of these Lalafells does not automatically lead to the conclusion that all lalafells as a race must, by default, be able to do this. You still have proof that it is possible for a Lalafell infact to gain this strength as a fighter/warrior, bare-handed. Considering you wont face NPC's or commoners in RP fights, it'll be up to each player themselves to deduct the level of strength his particular Lalafell has. But he has Lore grounds to support it through that example.

 

Also, Adventurer raises another good example of a Lalafells capability for brute strength being displayed. Even if we agree on the fact that not all Lalafells by default have the inherent strength of a Roegadyn, you have to admit at this point that it's very possible for a Lalafell to achieve said strength.

 

Which in general makes me wonder for the actual reason for this..debate, I mean, it wont urge people to play their lalafells differently.

[Sounsyy]

 

I got nothin' lorewise, sorry.

 

 

What we do have is (as Verad posted) racial stats giving Lalafell the lowest strength. However as the Player Character levels up and get better and better gear, these stats level out. What if for NPCs they didn't? Let's suppose for a moment that all NPCs are restricted to those racial starter stats, and the difference in 6 STR between a Dunesfolk and a Highlander is immense in the NPC world. Sure, we the Player Character see 6 STR as /meh but remember the Player Character is Hydaelyn's special-chosen-can-master-all-ancient-jobs-in-one-week-echo-wielding-Ultima-Weapon-slaying-can-lift-the-dead-bodies-of-four-dead-Scions-at-a-time GODSDAMNED HERO. Go to any FATE where it's NPC vs Mob and you will see them NPCs struggle hard. So maybe that 6 STR is not as negligible as you think.

 

In the NPC world, Highlanders are stronger than Lalafell.

 

The examples brought forth of Papashan, Popokkuli and Seserukka, and the many armed Lalafell in our nations' militaries are extraneous examples of physically fit, battle trained, Lalafellin soldiers. Okay, Popokkuli and Seserukka aren't fighters per say, but they're miners, which arguably requires more strength and endurance. Would Cocobusi be able to drag those 1.0 hyur miners out by their legs and toss them 6 fulms across the floor. I doubt it highly. Should the Miners twins have been able to? Maybe.

 

Even people of lesser stature can produce feats of incredible strength for their size. Would they compare to the Roegadyn with equal training, probably not, but as Kage said, the fact that they are a common race for most of the city-states military suggests that (even though they may not be able to perform AS well as their larger counterparts) they can at least reach the bare minimum requirement of physical fitness.

 

Should a Lalafell be able to take down a Roegadyn by punching it in the shins? IDK, but I've seen grown men cry after stepping on a lego... I imagine getting One-Ilm Punched in the shin by a Lalafell wearing metal cesti wouldn't feel too sweet either.

 

 

Anyways, there's no lore that accounts for Lalafells' feats of strength, that I know of. So carry on with the back n' forth.

 

[Aya]

Would they compare to the Roegadyn with equal training, probably not, but as Kage said, the fact that they are a common race for most of the city-states military suggests that (even though they may not be able to perform AS well as their larger counterparts) they can at least reach the bare minimum requirement of physical fitness.

 

Should a Lalafell be able to take down a Roegadyn by punching it in the shins? IDK, but I've seen grown men cry after stepping on a lego... I imagine getting One-Ilm Punched in the shin by a Lalafell wearing metal cesti wouldn't feel too sweet either.

These couple of sentences are terrific

[Melkire]

I like how absolutely no one in this thread remembers the names of Chuchuto and Rurukuta, the Lalafells of Ul'dah's pugilist guild.

 

GG, PGLs and MNKs of RPC. GG.

 

My own input: the difference between a Lalafell's strength and a Highlander's is not negligible, but it isn't insurmountable, either, as Chuchuto and Rurukuta perform remarkably well against Midlanders and Highlanders. 

[Roswyn]

Honestly, at the end of the day as far as actual RP goes I think the "don't be a dick" rule comes into play here.

 

Are you really going to tell your friend playing a Lalafel he "can't" do something because of his size? Is it really worth it?

 

Answer is no imo.

[Verad]

I like how absolutely no one in this thread remembers the names of Chuchuto and Rurukuta, the Lalafells of Ul'dah's pugilist guild.

 

GG, PGLs and MNKs of RPC. GG.

 

My own input: the difference between a Lalafell's strength and a Highlander's is not negligible, but it isn't insurmountable, either, as Chuchuto and Rurukuta perform remarkably well against Midlanders and Highlanders. 

 

I think they were glossed over as being "in training" at some point.

[Kinono]

Lalafell can also jump 7 feet straight-up into the air with no build-up.

 

I think this entire thread is made up of jealous people!

 

You're all jealous!

[Warren Castille]

 

I already conceded that everyone knew those specific lalafell were badasses.

So... do we get to pick and choose whose character are "badasses"?

 

I very much granted do not know 1.0 lore. But you say they're badasses. Who's to say that most lalafell fighting aren't badasses? Were they badasses because they were good fighters or just because they were lalafell badasses?

 

Do specific races get "badass" added to their sheet because of race chosen?

 

The miners are established very early in 1.0 storylines as being tough mothers. The miner's guild back then wasn't just a business; it was also a bar and a stripclub/maybesortawhorehouse? The people who worked and drank there were the grumpiest, rough-and-tough sorts of fellows who had nothing to go home to, so they drank away their pay. That kind of atmosphere.

 

The miners walk into the room and everyone, everyone, shuts up. They're badasses.

 

What makes that scene with those specific lalafells a comedic punchline? It is a display of immense strength, yes. But from the music playing in the background, to the dialogue, up to the execution, nothing is quite in the same vein as the 'Hildebrandt' questline.

 

Moreso, let's just for the sake of argument go with the notion that the strength of these Lalafells does not automatically lead to the conclusion that all lalafells as a race must, by default, be able to do this. You still have proof that it is possible for a Lalafell infact to gain this strength as a fighter/warrior, bare-handed. Considering you wont face NPC's or commoners in RP fights, it'll be up to each player themselves to deduct the level of strength his particular Lalafell has. But he has Lore grounds to support it through that example.

 

Also, Adventurer raises another good example of a Lalafells capability for brute strength being displayed. Even if we agree on the fact that not all Lalafells by default have the inherent strength of a Roegadyn, you have to admit at this point that it's very possible for a Lalafell to achieve said strength.

 

Which in general makes me wonder for the actual reason for this..debate, I mean, it wont urge people to play their lalafells differently.

 

I'm content to accept that, if an individual really does do nothing all day except train physically, that they would reach an impressive level of powers. The twins (are they twins? Tired of calling them miners all the time!) work all day. It's completely expected that they're tough as nails.

 

Anybody throwing anybody that far, that hard, that fast, is impossible to take seriously though. Hurling a grown person twenty~ feet through the air?

 

This always comes back to my biggest crux with "well they trained really hard" though. What happens when a roe does the same training? How strong can they get? What's the upper limit on possible? If someone RPs their all-I-do-is-bench-press-aldgots-24/7 lalafell as an incredibly potent pintsized powerhouse, what happens when someone RPs a roe all-I-do-is-bench-press-behemoths-24/7 decides to punch someone?

 

Reason for the debate is simple: I want to know how serious a threat I should treat an unarmed lalafell throwing a punch at my fuckhueg highlander.

 

stuff and things

 

Thank you, Sounsyy. Was afraid of that.

 

Honestly, at the end of the day as far as actual RP goes I think the "don't be a dick" rule comes into play here.

 

Are you really going to tell your friend playing a Lalafel he "can't" do something because of his size? Is it really worth it?

 

Answer is no imo.

 

You're 100% right, but I expect "don't be a dick" to go both ways. A lala's course of attack should never be throwing their opponent, especially from a dead lift, especially from the waist.

 

I like how absolutely no one in this thread remembers the names of Chuchuto and Rurukuta, the Lalafells of Ul'dah's pugilist guild.

 

GG, PGLs and MNKs of RPC. GG.

 

My own input: the difference between a Lalafell's strength and a Highlander's is not negligible, but it isn't insurmountable, either, as Chuchuto and Rurukuta perform remarkably well against Midlanders and Highlanders.

 

I think they were glossed over as being "in training" at some point.

 

This is a valid, interesting point since I'd forgotten they did in fact fight a lot of NPCs. These two ARE in training under Hammon, so it stands to reason that once they're done they'll be capable of fighting Titan while blind.

 

Lalafell can also jump 7 feet straight-up into the air with no build-up.

 

I think this entire thread is made up of jealous people!

 

You're all jealous!

 

Jealousy is being able to see what's on the top shelf without jumping.

 

 

 

I warned you.

[Whittledown]

I just assume that lalafell have a different sort of muscle density than other races. Like the difference between a chimp and a human.

 

A 150lb chimp is about 4x stronger than a 150lb human.

 

So scale that down to get 37.5lb lalafell to be equally as strong as a 150lb midlander hyur.

 

Or some such nonsense.

[Berrod Armstrong]

I like how absolutely no one in this thread remembers the names of Chuchuto and Rurukuta, the Lalafells of Ul'dah's pugilist guild.

 

GG, PGLs and MNKs of RPC. GG.

 

dude i forgot the entire PGL questline after Widargelt came on screen

[Adventurer]

If you're quick to disregard the twin Lalafell Miners, I'll bring up Chuchuto and her friend from the Pugilist storyline. Several times Chuchuto fights alone and/or alongside others but holds her own against Midlanders and Highlanders. She even defeats quite a few, these being from the Alacran, a criminal organisation that are trained to kill.

 

She doesn't use claws, either. Just cesti. There would need to be some strength behind those punches for those to have a decent enough effect where she holds her own.

I like how absolutely no one in this thread remembers the names of Chuchuto and Rurukuta, the Lalafells of Ul'dah's pugilist guild. 

 

GG, PGLs and MNKs of RPC. GG.

 

I remembered one of them, at least.

 

Rurukuta's a meanie pie for most of the quest, anyway!

[Kinono]

I'll say this, both to my defense in detriment:

 

no response I make in this thread or on this subject is going to be 100% rational and without emotional attachment.

 

As a primarily Lalafell roleplayer, who's been at this since launch... I get really, really, really tired of not being taken seriously. As a player, but more importantly as a character. I've had people regularly comments on me being the "comedy-relief" race, regular derogatory comments made on my character's ability to do physically anything by herself, assumptions that I'm not being age-appropriate by doing anything a grown adult would regularly and reasonably do, and one very random and uncalled-for comment on me being smelly and dirty and having gross midget feet.

 

I'll totally agree that a lalapunch and a roepunch, after equal training and with equal equipment are not going to be the same. But if anybody tells me or any other character they can't win a little brawl for no better reason than "lol lala," then that person's credibility is going to go way, way, way down in my book.

[Kage]

I'm at work so I can't spend as much time as I'd like to fumbling around with the quotes and spoilers. Thank you Warren for establishing that! :3

 

As a lalafell player I'd like to believe that I've never had Kage attempt to just bare bones bench press and throw a Roegadyn clear across the room with no effort at all. But one of your comments makes me think someone did?

 

If I had Kage facing Warren at the GS. A) As warren doesn't fight with armor or weapons, Kage would probably actually do the same thing, ie fight with his bare fists. To him, it's only fair.

 

If I were to throw a lalafell at say the fight club, some things I have in mind. Lalafell, if they are fighters, are going to have the fortitude to take hits. Ones that have a high chance of counters but if they hit are knockouts? No, but they might be able to dodge and counter it easily. He might be using the opponent's own joints against him to force the win. Or outlast him long enough to wear him out and get in a good blow.

 

Re: LalaPunch Hyur: No it won't hurt as much as Roe's or another Hyur's but it's not something that you're going to be able to laugh off and go "lol try that again! did you even try the first time?"

[Zyrusticae]

Maaan, look at all this discussion that can be answered with a single word:

 

"Aether."

 

I'm now going to drop a DBZ clip, because it's relevant. Yes, that's right. DBZ is relevant here. I know, it's silly, but think about it and you'll know it to be true.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOFbabvk-M

 

It's a thing in a lot of Japanese (and East Asian in general) media. In other universes it's referred to variously as ki/chi, reiatsu (spiritual pressure), chakra, The Force, etc., etc. It's effectively what allows the characters within those universes to pull off their insane superhuman feats.

 

So let's put it this way. A Lalafell is naturally at a disadvantage from a pure physical perspective, the same way a Miqo'te is at a physical disadvantage versus a Highlander who is at a disadvantage versus a Roegadyn who is at a disadvantage vs Titan etc.. It's only after they train and gain control over aether (either their own or the environment's) that they start to exhibit abilities that go well beyond their ken. In other words, no, an ordinary Lalafell would not be able to arm-wrestle a Roegadyn... but a trained pugilist with strong control over their own aether (as well as sizable aetheric reserves) could easily overpower a Roegadyn that's had no prior training.

 

It's funny to me, to read all these posters who can't take superhuman feats seriously, who need realism in regards to physical size and the like. As someone who grew up with DBZ and other such fun things, I take it as a matter of course. Of course a Lalafell is capable of standing up to a Roegadyn once they've become capable. Physical size just doesn't matter in these worlds when you have aether to overcome any and all obstacles! At some point you just learn to suspend your disbelief with the understanding that the laws of physics are just different in these fictional universes, or else you can never get invested into the events depicted.

[Sounsyy]

Zyrusticae snip.

 

Aether solves all questions...

 

except...

 

GARLEAN LALAFELLS MWUAHAHAHAHAHA

 

(@8:06)

[TheLastCandle]

Aether is the new "Wizards did it lol."

[Warren Castille]

I'll say this, both to my defense in detriment:

 

no response I make in this thread or on this subject is going to be 100% rational and without emotional attachment.

 

As a primarily Lalafell roleplayer, who's been at this since launch... I get really, really, really tired of not being taken seriously. As a player, but more importantly as a character. I've had people regularly comments on me being the "comedy-relief" race, regular derogatory comments made on my character's ability to do physically anything by herself, assumptions that I'm not being age-appropriate by doing anything a grown adult would regularly and reasonably do, and one very random and uncalled-for comment on me being smelly and dirty and having gross midget feet.

 

I'll totally agree that a lalapunch and a roepunch, after equal training and with equal equipment are not going to be the same. But if anybody tells me or any other character they can't win a little brawl for no better reason than "lol lala," then that person's credibility is going to go way, way, way down in my book.

 

I blame XI for that. Tarutaru (the progenitor race from that game) are almost to-a-one childlike and silly. There are plenty of examples where they aren't, but the CoP triplets and Shantotto are basically the only ones anyone remembers. You can also blame SE by outright stating on the official lalafell page on Lodestone that they have child-like countenances. They did you no favors by painting the race as children, but there's plenty of NPCs and dialogue in game that show that isn't the case.

 

Finally, anyone saying lalafell can't win a fight because of their size is damaged upstairs. If my opinions came off that way I apologize; I really just wanted to talk about raw strength vis-a-vis punching/throwing/grappling.

 

I'm at work so I can't spend as much time as I'd like to fumbling around with the quotes and spoilers. Thank you Warren for establishing that! :3

 

As a lalafell player I'd like to believe that I've never had Kage attempt to just bare bones bench press and throw a Roegadyn clear across the room with no effort at all. But one of your comments makes me think someone did?

 

If I had Kage facing Warren at the GS. A) As warren doesn't fight with armor or weapons, Kage would probably actually do the same thing, ie fight with his bare fists. To him, it's only fair.

 

If I were to throw a lalafell at say the fight club, some things I have in mind. Lalafell, if they are fighters, are going to have the fortitude to take hits. Ones that have a high chance of counters but if they hit are knockouts? No, but they might be able to dodge and counter it easily. He might be using the opponent's own joints against him to force the win. Or outlast him long enough to wear him out and get in a good blow.

 

Re: LalaPunch Hyur: No it won't hurt as much as Roe's or another Hyur's but it's not something that you're going to be able to laugh off and go "lol try that again! did you even try the first time?"

 

Enh, there was an incident but it's not mine to call out. I just wanted to be equipped for when it is inevitably my turn, though.

 

Joint manipulation and judo-style momentum-counters are completely fair. This is what I meant by saying brute force isn't the only way to win; Even without weapons or armor a lalafell CAN be a threat, I just think that threat is best represented through means other than leaping uppercuts and axe-handle smashes and dropkicks.

 

I'd also like to think that I've always had Warren "sell" well, especially at the Grindstone. Getting hit is going to happen and everyone knows I expect to lose every round, so I'd never be so brazen as to stick my chest out and laugh off someone's attacks. I also try not to talk trash. I'm a firm believer in talking/emoting yourself up instead of someone else down. There's a world of difference between

 

/em sees the feint coming and slips around behind the true attack before following through with his own

 

and

 

/em laughs off 's horrible attempt at a trick and blocks the attack without flinching, smirking and laughing it off and doing a Shinkuu Shoryuken. "You're so damn slow, my mother could have seen that coming.

 

One makes you sound like a good fighter! The other makes your opponent sound like shit! They both get the same point across (dodge, counter) but one makes for a tense back-and-forth, the other sounds like fanfiction.

[Warren Castille]

Maaan, look at all this discussion that can be answered with a single word:

 

"Aether."

 

I'm now going to drop a DBZ clip, because it's relevant. Yes, that's right. DBZ is relevant here. I know, it's silly, but think about it and you'll know it to be true.

 

It's a thing in a lot of Japanese (and East Asian in general) media. In other universes it's referred to variously as ki/chi, reiatsu (spiritual pressure), chakra, The Force, etc., etc. It's effectively what allows the characters within those universes to pull off their insane superhuman feats.

 

So let's put it this way. A Lalafell is naturally at a disadvantage from a pure physical perspective, the same way a Miqo'te is at a physical disadvantage versus a Highlander who is at a disadvantage versus a Roegadyn who is at a disadvantage vs Titan etc.. It's only after they train and gain control over aether (either their own or the environment's) that they start to exhibit abilities that go well beyond their ken. In other words, no, an ordinary Lalafell would not be able to arm-wrestle a Roegadyn... but a trained pugilist with strong control over their own aether (as well as sizable aetheric reserves) could easily overpower a Roegadyn that's had no prior training.

 

It's funny to me, to read all these posters who can't take superhuman feats seriously, who need realism in regards to physical size and the like. As someone who grew up with DBZ and other such fun things, I take it as a matter of course. Of course a Lalafell is capable of standing up to a Roegadyn once they've become capable. Physical size just doesn't matter in these worlds when you have aether to overcome any and all obstacles! At some point you just learn to suspend your disbelief with the understanding that the laws of physics are just different in these fictional universes, or else you can never get invested into the events depicted.

 

You stop having a point once the roe is also trained. If on a scale of 1-10 a lalafell start at 10, and after practice can channel aether to get to 150, what happens when a roe who started at 40 channels the same aether?

 

It's also established not everyone can "channel" aether, nor is it established that aether is what makes heroes heroic.

 

I've had no trouble getting invested in plenty, but I tend to limit my exposure to super saiyan potatoes, too.

[Zyrusticae]

Zyrusticae snip.

 

Aether solves all questions...

 

except...

 

GARLEAN LALAFELLS MWUAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[snip]

(@8:06)

>_>

 

We don't know if they're actually Garlean or just conscripted troops, however. Are Garleans exclusively Hyur? I know the Roe was a conscript who worked his way up the ranks/was given his position as a favor or whatever. (I might have to go find that cutscene again...)

 

Aether is the new "Wizards did it lol."

Hey, at least one of these things is actually canon.

[Erik Mynhier]

Zyrusticae snip.

 

Aether solves all questions...

 

except...

 

GARLEAN LALAFELLS MWUAHAHAHAHAHA

 

(@8:06)

 

Oh man I forgot how epic the cs fights were in 1.0. I miss my legacy toon, wish I had kept that account going. We need a series of quest in ARR that will give us those old cs's in our Inn book.

[Kage]

I know this is not relevant to this discussion but thank you cutscenes as they show that the gunblades "bullets" are in some form able to be blocked by magic barrier or... punching the shit out of them.

 

Also, Garlean lalafell. SEE ROEN THEY WOULD TOTES LET KAGE IN

 

I respect you Warren as an RPer and know you wouldn't do that. I just throw that out there because... I have seen that. There's nothing more than having a hyur RPer take a direct hit from your character, lalafell or not, and just laugh it off and say "You're not even trying!"

 

So, while I don't think a Lalafell can do a straight up one hit knockout (unless it's to specific places... knockout 'game' /sigh) but I think they can take the punches "regular" punches. They're not going to take too many clothesline or "charged up" hammers just as how they're not just going to flop when they get hit.

[Warren Castille]

I know this is not relevant to this discussion but thank you cutscenes as they show that the gunblades "bullets" are in some form able to be blocked by magic barrier or... punching the shit out of them.

 

Also, Garlean lalafell. SEE ROEN THEY WOULD TOTES LET KAGE IN

 

I respect you Warren as an RPer and know you wouldn't do that. I just throw that out there because... I have seen that. There's nothing more than having a hyur RPer take a direct hit from your character, lalafell or not, and just laugh it off and say "You're not even trying!"

 

So, while I don't think a Lalafell can do a straight up one hit knockout (unless it's to specific places... knockout 'game' /sigh) but I think they can take the punches "regular" punches. They're not going to take too many clothesline or "charged up" hammers just as how they're not just going to flop when they get hit.

 

Agreed. I never commented on lala's being flimsy for that reason exactly; I just figured part of their rotundness meshed with them being durable. Squishy, you might say. Hell, I even gave the reply to Berrod's question that they might very well "catch" the kick and just cling to the leg. They're sized like children, but they aren't children.

 

One of the things that burns me up the most is people no-selling offense in combat-rp situations. If you get hit, get hit, don't just shrug it off and counter. Be creative! I had to fight someone who was like, a starved wiry skeleton person and opened with a roundhouse kick. I lost the roll, but I still posted that Warren blocked it.

 

Then the kick went through his block and staggered him a bit because he underestimated the force behind it. Hell, part of the fun of combat RP is solving damage! For me, anyway.

[Tiergan]

I always assumed that while Lalafell could train to the point of getting really physically powerful (like the miner twins) - as a whole, they brought other advantages to the table in terms of martial combat. The lore already explicitly states that they're agile and intelligent -- they're obviously really tiny. It makes sense to me that fighting against a skilled lalafell opponent would be like fighting a super fast, super hard to see/hit opponent that is analyzing and breaking down all of your moves to determine their next strike.

 

I personally don't think a lalafell and a roe that have undergone the exact same training would have the exact same level of physical strength - but could the lalafell win if they fought? Sure, it's possible. He's got a whole different fighting style than the roe by default. Backed up by training, (or if they're a monk, by chakra/ki/aether/etc), their strikes could also likely hit hard enough to really hurt instead of say -- bouncing off your opponent.