Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement

[ChewableMorphine]

[align=center]Difficult =/= Tedious[/align]

 

[align=center][/align]

 

[align=center]420praiseit[/align]

 

 

So.. you understand where I'm coming from perfectly? I don't understand the point of your image response. Dark Souls is a game that many consider too much "work" and dismiss it because games are "supposed to be fun". The difficulty is the fun, you clearly get it if you play/enjoy Dark Souls.

 

[align=center]Hours of grinding FATEs =/= Getting good at the game[/align]

 

[align=center]Grinding for Alexandrite =/= Getting good[/align]

 

[align=center]Uninteresting and boring objectives =/= Getting good at the game[/align]

 

[align=center]Dark Souls is a terrible comparison to XIV grinding. DS you get good, you don't grind. Even then, you're probably PvPing, which requires you to get good. tl;dr gitgud.[/align]

[align=center]But you have a point. Sorta. People who claim DS is work are bad at the game. Anybody can do a shitload of FATEs and maps (albeit with a medic). Losing to Asylum Demon because he's "too hard" is you being bad. Learn to get good. DS isn't even that hard.[/align]

[allgivenover]

 

Almost everything is infantile compared to Dark Souls. And seriously it's just a funny comic, I wouldn't over think it.

 

It's okay to like overrated games. You don't need to dismiss others because of that.

 

I'm not? I was responding to dismissing some styles of gaming as "work".

 

You know what, forget it. All of your posts lately towards me have just been designed to rankle and I don't really get why as I haven't done anything to you. It's a shame because you're honestly the only decent RPer I've had the joy of running into the past several months. But if you dislike me, you dislike me, and there's nothing I can do about it. Just block me here if I bother you so much.

[Dravus]

At the end of the day people have different tastes. Expecting everybody to get along and be tolerant of each other just isn't something that's going to realistically happen. The best thing to do is carve out a little niche within the community and expand one's social circle to accommodate those whose role-play aligns with what one seeks.

 

I do think threads like this serve an excellent purpose though. Letting people vent and put their opinion out there is important, especially when the community boasts all sorts of different people from all sorts of different backgrounds.

 

To play devil's advocate, though? Someone being an elitist in role-play doesn't make them a horrible person. Truth be told? Most of the nasty sniping I see in this community comes from those who are supposedly against elitism.

[Warren Castille]

It's like everyone saw Flynt's first post and missed the entire conversation he and I had as a result of it on the following page.

[allgivenover]

 

[align=center]Hours of grinding FATEs =/= Getting good at the game[/align]

 

[align=center]Grinding for Alexandrite =/= Getting good[/align]

 

[align=center]Uninteresting and boring objectives =/= Getting good at the game[/align]

 

[align=center]Dark Souls is a terrible comparison to XIV grinding. DS you get good, you don't grind. Even then, you're probably PvPing, which requires you to get good. tl;dr gitgud.[/align]

[align=center]But you have a point. Sorta. People who claim DS is work are bad at the game. Anybody can do a shitload of FATEs and maps (albeit with a medic). Losing to Asylum Demon because he's "too hard" is you being bad. Learn to get good. DS isn't even that hard.[/align]

 

 

That's the thing though, tedium is its own sort of difficulty, and some people honestly like a grind. It's entirely up to preference. People who claim DaS is work are usually bad because the work you put into it to get good isn't fun for them like it was fun for you and me, so they never do it.

 

For me, relic stopped when I hit the book grind and had to wait two hours for a FATE to spawn. I had much more fun wiping in Coil than waiting on FATEs, but for some people that waiting on FATEs is fun and "work" in a way that they enjoy, and it's ok for them to feel pride in finishing that achievement.

 

There are many people who are well... not very good or inclined towards defeating tough mechanics like Dark Souls or Coil of Bahamut. Many, many players just don't have the traits geared for succeeding in those game environments, and that's ok. Those gamers deserve to feel accomplished in the way they prefer, without anyone dismissing that enjoyment as not valid because it's "not the way games are supposed to be".

 

I get you entirely, I just think you came into the thread throwing haymakers and no one was really understanding why you seemed to be bashing on relic.

[allgivenover]

It's like everyone saw Flynt's first post and missed the entire conversation he and I had as a result of it on the following page.

 

I actually started my post and was delayed in finishing it, so I didn't see the rest. >.>;

[ChewableMorphine]

It's like everyone saw Flynt's first post and missed the entire conversation he and I had as a result of it on the following page.

 

[align=center][/align]

[ChewableMorphine]

-fart-

 

There are many people who are well... not very good or inclined towards defeating tough mechanics like Dark Souls or Coil of Bahamut. Many, many players just don't have the traits geared for succeeding in those game environments, and that's ok.

 

HE GETS IT

[Flashhelix]

elitism in rp is good

[Harmonixer]

There's a ton of hand holding in Dark Souls that isn't readily apparent to players who aren't paying attention. Pyromancy, heavy armors that raise your mitigation levels insanely high, buffs that let you 1 shot shield poke mobs, plenty of easy methods for 'difficult' bosses. The charm of the game from it's hands off storytelling and methods of teaching a player through pure gameplay. It's difficulty is almost gone once you grasp certain concepts.

 

I'd argue that it's more 'difficult' to learn an MMO because you can't learn certain things from just the game alone. You need to talk to other players and test yourself repeatedly in combat environments, along with a steady increase in gear and level is an introduction to other things. In most MMOs, you never get a complete character until you reach cap. In games like Dark Souls, you can beat the game with literally nothing but a wooden club equipped and never need to heal once.

 

That being said, I still don't find it excusable for players in MMOs to disregard others and do the standard, stand in the fire and then blame the healer shit that still persists. Understand that you are playing in a team based environment and every mistake you make without learning from, makes it more difficult for others to progress. While is possible to outgear certain mechanics, it is not possible to survive all of them and continue to be successful. We can cite examples and argue about that all we want, but until every player is decked in the best gear ever regardless of how much time they might have dedicated regardless of how skilled they might be, but that's something else entirely.

 

I think I'm somewhat of an elitist, but in the sense that I expect my fellow players to be able to communicate to me their shortcomings if they are aware of them and a willingness to learn if presented with criticism in efforts to better themselves for the benefit of smoother play in groups. Be ready to pull your weight, realize you aren't just wasting your own time, that you are also wasting others. Especially when it comes to MMOs. Chances are if you are playing one, you have a way to research things in some way, and if you don't you certainly can ask other players and people like myself are more than happy to take time to explain things and help others. I love helping people, I can't stand people who expect me to do the work for them however.

 

Earlier today, I wanted to respond to posts in particular about RP elitisim. Thinking it over for the better part of the day, I think it's better that I simply leave it as this, which I've said a few times here before. You should be able to enjoy yourself however you feel fit so long as you don't do it at the expense of others and should no way feel entitled to anything in particular. You are sharing a virtual space with real, living breathing humans and it's always better to be open minded than it is to shut yourself further in.

 

Also, cocks.

[OverlordOutpost]

For the Zeta thing, I honestly don't get it.  To me, that's a lot of time that I could've spent anywhere else doing things that I found more fun, instead of grinding for a thing that offers a ephemeral fleeting advantage.

 

And it's okay I don't get it.  Why?  Because my idea of fun is opening up a spread sheet, detailing out the schedules of 15 different trains, and moving coal from a mine to a power plant in some Sim game.

 

I'm okay with the fact that some people find things I won't find fun, and even bragworthy.  Because they're gonna brag about the hours they threw into a far more shinier weapon, just like I'd love to brag about how mathematically efficient my train routing system is and how my signals work, and just how absolutely amazing and cost effective the SH "125" Diesel Engine is in terms of sheer horse-power is.  And to them, I'll be someone who puts way to much work into a fake train game.

 

Ultimately, in both cases, it's pretty shitty if I brag specifically to bring someone else down, you Floss "47" using peasants.

 

--

 

In terms of knowing your job in the game, know your damned job. You're not disappointing yourself; you're wasting the time of three other people that are relying on you not making Eos tank (somehow) in a level 50 dungeon.

[Gone.]

Demon's Souls was better, anyway.

 

This thread has also done a good job of proving elitism is still alive and well in MMOs, though I must confess I expected better coming from roleplayers. Call it naive if you want, but I'm still disappointed either way.

[OverlordOutpost]

Demon's Souls was better, anyway.

 

This thread has also done a good job of proving elitism is still alive and well in MMOs, though I must confess I expected better coming from roleplayers. Call it naive if you want, but I'm still disappointed either way.

Being a roleplayer doesn't excuse us from being humans. Being aware of your flaws and trying to avoid them hurting others is far more mature then denying they exist to begin with.

[Kage]

If it helps, I quite like your name because it means cake in my native tongue and cake is the best :3

 

MY NAME MEANS CAKE? THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE LANGUAGE I USED IT FROM

[Flashhelix]

elitism is still alive and well in MMOs

 

Thank god

[Edvyn]

the only people who fear elitism are those who know they aren't good enough 8-)

[Iex]

Gonna start with… this probably should go into FFXIV forum rather than RPing forum because that particular part of topic is long since gone the wayside.

 

Regarding Zeta, as someone with one I feel inclined to note something. I have never once seen anyone brag seriously about the relic. Until recently, relic was actually considered more non-endgame, because before Zeta it was rarely BiS for more than a few weeks if at all. To be honest folks with Zeta are more likely to be talked down to if they don’t know something. If you have Zeta you are expected to be good. A humorous twist on the whole elitist thing, I would say.

 

Regarding comparing DS (2 etc) to FFXIV: That is comparing apples to oranges. The selling part of the Dark Souls franchise is the difficulty and the fact you must be PREPARED to die. MMOs have never had that aspect. MMORPGs are designed to appeal to a wide demographic of hardcore to casual players. Sure most MMOs will have Hard modes (Heroic Raids or whatever they are called in WoW, and Savage modes in FFXIV), but in general the difficulty of MMOs come more from coordination of many folks and overcoming unfortunates such as lag and miscommunication. In Dark Souls you only have one person to worry about (if you aren’t invaded): yourself.

 

Regarding Elitism in general:  Frankly, you are going to run into dicks who will rub it in your face that they beat T13 before you, or that they are better than you. It is natural. I mean I am sure folks don’t like it when their sport team lost to another and those fans goes bragging. However, in the case of elitism in FFXIV the onus only rests on you and how you handle yourself when you are being “elitist.”

 

Someone being an ‘elitist’ (read rude)? Ignore them because you don’t take the game seriously, or if they are being rather annoying at a point where it bothers you (we are all human we will get bothered): leave the group or blacklist. No one is making you play with that person. It is your 15 dollars so you can decide what to do with it. If they are really being terrible it is likely they will get vote kicked.

 

Along that same vein, a lot of people in this thread have posted gripes or expectations of other players. The thing is…. You can’t have expectations of ‘stranger’ players. Not everyone is going to play well, and frankly some folks are really quite bad at games in general. The thing is: You don’t have to play with them. The $15 allows you to play the game the way you want, just like everyone else.

 

You can spend that $15 worth of time playing with folks you know play the game the way you enjoy and they know you play the game they way they enjoy.  What I am saying is… playingwith friends. The primary Roulette (expert) is party friendly! You never have to do Duty Finder for that.

 

Expectations of other players can only exist when they are set down at the start, aka Party Finder. If the person says ‘know the fight’ that has been established they want you to know the fight. It isn’t elitist by any standard. Established Expectations =/= Elitism. Hence why if someone is botching up a lot and ignoring the advice in a Coil group… they might find themselves kicked out because they do not meet the established expectations for the group.

 

 Roulettes and Duty Finders exist to provide folks who don’t have a pool of friends a way to get content done and the like. You are given bonuses for doing them as a daily reward, but also because it might honestly be hell. In that case, if you have expectations you are setting yourself up for failure, and if you go off (rudely addressing the issue) on folks because it is not going the way you want, you are an asshole. You can just as easily leave the party as you can go off on other players.

 

OF COURSE I am not touching the fact that if you politely try to get folks to fix stuff for the sake of everyone else and they go off on you. That is just a mess where nothing will end up well.

 

Frankly, in most games their isn’t so much Elitism in PVE or RP as there is just people being dicks because it seems that is the default way to deal with things when they aren’t going their way.

 

((Before anyone brings up CT… don’t… it isn’t worth, it those raids will always bring out the worst in people.))

[Dravus]

I must be lucky: I so rarely encounter any hostility in raids or dungeons. I've met a few bad apples here and there but the vast majority of my dungeon and raid groups through the duty finder are fairly calm and pleasant.

 

Tougher content isn't necessarily successful (Turn 5 is very much a sore point for me) yet even when a group fails the atmosphere is decent.

 

Many people I've spoken with in FFXIV have had similar experiences which makes me wonder if those claiming to have multiple bad runs are just really unlucky or the cause of much of the hostility.

 

All it takes is one player with a foul attitude and a bad temper to drag down the quality of a group after all.

[Caspar]

I must be lucky: I so rarely encounter any hostility in raids or dungeons. I've met a few bad apples here and there but the vast majority of my dungeon and raid groups through the duty finder are fairly calm and pleasant.

 

Tougher content isn't necessarily successful (Turn 5 is very much a sore point for me) yet even when a group fails the atmosphere is decent.

 

Many people I've spoken with in FFXIV have had similar experiences which makes me wonder if those claiming to have multiple bad runs are just really unlucky or the cause of much of the hostility.

 

All it takes is one player with a foul attitude and a bad temper to drag down the quality of a group after all.

I think they just remember the bad cases more, really. I meet a lot of good players outside of the three towers. Even then it's not so much those are bad players as there are so many of them that at least a few are bound to be bad.

[Warren Castille]

Demon's Souls was better, anyway.

 

This thread has also done a good job of proving elitism is still alive and well in MMOs, though I must confess I expected better coming from roleplayers. Call it naive if you want, but I'm still disappointed either way.

 

Doth mine eyes deceive me, or does this post open with a subjective opinion before opining that subjective opinions are disappointing?

 

This whole thread was designed around classifying the myriad differences between any given individuals' definition of the term "elitist." From your post, though, it sounds as if you do not consider yourself elitist in any way? You're disappointed in us, after all. Surely you are above this.

 

Have you never been in a group that just can't pass simple mechanics? Have you ever wiped ad nauseum to Titan EX because your tanks can't figure out how to swap effectively? Wiped in Turn 5 repeatedly because that One Person always messes up Dive Bomb or Twister and kills everyone? Maybe you don't even do 8-person content, that's fine too.

 

Have you ever had a tank who can't hold hate? Had a run completely derailed because some healer couldn't or wouldn't do their job correctly? If you've ever felt frustrated by any means at the inadequacies of your party, there's a seed of elitism in you. You're not above it, no matter how you might like to posture yourself. In fact, one might say that your condescending and "above it all" tone paints you as an elitist yourself! Surely you can see the irony of coming in to a thread designed to define "elitism" in broad strokes and looking down on all of us from your ivory tower.

 

The truth of the matter is, in my opinion, that it comes down to standards. For any given number of people, a varying percent of them are going to hold the same values. Anyone number under that value and there's grounds for feeling like you're doing things more correctly than them. Any number over that value and there's grounds for feeling like you're the one being looked down upon. I'll expand on this.

 

Earlier, someone brought up that Harry Potter in Eorzea as a roleplay device. There's a group of ten people in the Quicksand. Two of them, named Harry Potter and Hermione Granger, are openly roleplaying their characters. If any one of the other eight point out this isn't canonical and ask/tell/whatever them to take it to party or go elsewhere, that person is an elitist. If anyone agrees with them, they're elitist.

 

There's ten people in the Quicksand. Two of them, named Warren and Vetiver, are roleplaying the Little Ladies' Event. Eight other people tell them "You can do that here, this is New Hogwarts, get out" and proceed to mock and make fun of the other two. These roleplayers are now elitist. And when those eight players go to a public event and get told not to roleplay such a concept, those eight people are now the victims of elitists.

 

All of this is subjective.

 

tl;dr: You're not better than any of us, you're literally being the thing that you think we're being.

[LiveVoltage]

I am explaining MY preference for games without criticizing or dismissing others preferred play style.

 

Which, of course, requires imagery depicting the modern action game as infantilizing the player. It's the only way.

 

Almost everything is infantilizing compared to Dark Souls. And seriously it's just a funny comic, I wouldn't over think it.

Well, if were talking about Dark Souls, I think it's one of those thing's that boil's down to what the player wants to play. I have Dark Souls so I do speak from experience of playing it in the following rant:

 

I like difficult content. I like when the game takes off the training wheels and challenges you to become even better than before. However, Dark Souls is not something that you just pick up and expect to learn how to play like a pro in minutes with hand holding. It is one of those do or die games where you either take flight after your first jump off the theoretical cliff or keep plummeting to your death till you get it right.

 

With that said, I personally despise Dark Souls for it's notoriously hard mechanics. Most of the time, I get 3 shotted by anything with a stick in that game, so I do see the legitimate grievances of others here.

 

Really, it all comes down to personal preferences and how people like to play and enjoy their games. Dark Souls is obviously designed for a hardcore audience, and that's ok. I don't mind that it was designed for them and neither does anybody else I recon.

 

Where I draw the line with Elitism is that if someone says they beat Dark Souls and they brag about it, I say "Cool story bro. I could never get past *boss or mechanic*" If they automatically proceed to say Git Gud or any variation of that and not try to explain or show how to get past what they consider easy content, thats when Elitism starts.

 

Elitism starts when someone get's a bloated ego and think they are the best. It end's when nobody really cares, including the person who beat the game.

 

People who beat hard games or any games inn general do have bragging rights. Just dont rub it in someones face then taunt them. That is a d**k move.

[Yssen]

elitism - noun. the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.

    - the attitude or behavior of a person who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.

 

I simply love definitions, they can clarify so much. Time to delve into this a little.

 

Elitism as a concept is not, by definition, what one would call inherently a bad thing. Are there people who are better an doing "x" than others? Absolutely, it is a simple fact of life and it comes with the territory pretty much everywhere. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with this, a group of people come together to do something and each one does what they the thing they do best. Awesome sauce, superior product of endeavor achieved. 

 

The problem lies in that second part of the definition. Ones behavior (meaning yours) because they (meaning you) regard themselves as belonging to an elite (group, like minded point of view, skill level, what ever the heck). In short, the problem starts when a person starts treating people as something lesser than themselves. They do this generally because they hold themselves to be more than that person because of "x". What is "x"? Doesn't matter. This is not about "x". This is about how you as a person treat other people because of whatever your "x" is. That is the defining/vector problem with "elitism". Attitude.

 

You are free to act as you wish based on your personal "x" that makes you elite. However, it is generally accepted by most that if you are excluding people, talking down to people, or generally treating people as lesser because of your "x" (your arbitrary and only signifcant to you "x") you are making what most would refer to as a "dick move". You can seek to justify the behavior however you please, but when you get right down to the nity gritty of it. The chewy fun truthful center of it all. Whatever justification you choose, you are still treating someone (or someones) as lesser than you, and I cannot think of any point ever where that has been a good thing. No one likes to be excluded. No one likes to feel lesser. You wouldn't like done to you. Heck, most of us have probably felt how much it stings when it is done to us. So don't do it. Failing that, accept the nitty gritty of how your attitude is making you act and accept how others will judge you based on those acts. Whether they are good or bad.

 

To wrap this up, I place a with a super nerdy quote at the bottom. Because it relates to the matter at hand, and is great food for thought. Have a great day, all.

 

"There is right and there is wrong in the Universe. The distinction between them is not hard to make. Do right by all." - Superman, Kingdom Come.

[Kuzhuk]

Believing yourself better than others is pretty dangerous. I'm not saying I never do it, but even when I do it I always put a little asterisk by the thought in my mind, because I'm not that great. Even though there are differences in skill levels (RP and otherwise), it's not like we're a bunch of published authors blowing time in Eorzea before our next script is due.

 

I find that if you want to criticize (yourself and others) comparisons are extremely unhelpful. It doesn't matter if that person is worse than you. What matters is simple: they're doing something poorly. Delve into why and give advice tactfully and thoughtfully to fix the problem or seek to avoid them. Looking down on them is supremely unhelpful (though sometimes a guilty pleasure we all fall victim to, myself included).

 

And I cannot emphasis enough the previously bolded portion. Whenever you seek to criticize others you ought to consider what's motivating you in doing so. Are you pointing out faults to satisfy some kind of selfish drive or are you looking to positively alter the problem you're criticizing? If it's the former, keep your thoughts private. If it's the latter, well, give it a lot of thought. Try very hard to remain easy to digest.

 

Education isn't easy. Nevermind the difficulty of transmitting ideas or the possibility that the student is incapable of learning and executing them, in this arena there's the added difficulty of them disagreeing that they've done anything wrong to begin with. It takes a lot of effort to breach such topics, and even more to remain constructive. In the end, it's hard to look at conflict as worth resolving. UNLESS you're dealing with an exceptional person, and sometimes you are (back to the whole 'elite' few thing).

 

So my most cynical of conclusions? Learn not to engage. Look for the rare few who are humble enough to listen to the suggestions of others without becoming defensive or agitated. They're the truly elite.

[Edvyn]

elitism - noun. the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.

    - the attitude or behavior of a person who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.

 

I simply love definitions, they can clarify so much. Time to delve into this a little.

 

Elitism as a concept is not, by definition, what one would call inherently a bad thing. Are there people who are better an doing "x" than others? Absolutely, it is a simple fact of life and it comes with the territory pretty much everywhere. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with this, a group of people come together to do something and each one does what they the thing they do best. Awesome sauce, superior product of endeavor achieved. 

 

The problem lies in that second part of the definition. Ones behavior (meaning yours) because they (meaning you) regard themselves as belonging to an elite (group, like minded point of view, skill level, what ever the heck). In short, the problem starts when a person starts treating people as something lesser than themselves. They do this generally because they hold themselves to be more than that person because of "x". What is "x"? Doesn't matter. This is not about "x". This is about how you as a person treat other people because of whatever your "x" is. That is the defining/vector problem with "elitism". Attitude.

 

You are free to act as you wish based on your personal "x" that makes you elite. However, it is generally accepted by most that if you are excluding people, talking down to people, or generally treating people as lesser because of your "x" (your arbitrary and only signifcant to you "x") you are making what most would refer to as a "dick move". You can seek to justify the behavior however you please, but when you get right down to the nity gritty of it. The chewy fun truthful center of it all. Whatever justification you choose, you are still treating someone (or someones) as lesser than you, and I cannot think of any point ever where that has been a good thing. No one likes to be excluded. No one likes to feel lesser. You wouldn't like done to you. Heck, most of us have probably felt how much it stings when it is done to us. So don't do it. Failing that, accept the nitty gritty of how your attitude is making you act and accept how others will judge you based on those acts. Whether they are good or bad.

 

To wrap this up, I place a with a super nerdy quote at the bottom. Because it relates to the matter at hand, and is great food for thought. Have a great day, all.

 

"There is right and there is wrong in the Universe. The distinction between them is not hard to make. Do right by all." - Superman, Kingdom Come.

yo this aint algebra