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+--- Thread: Help with Tournament Ideas (/showthread.php?tid=18350)
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Aegir - 01-27-2017
I want to see a chocobo jousting tournament!
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Warren Castille - 01-27-2017
(01-27-2017, 01:51 PM)Maril Wrote: It has always struck me as somewhat odd that things are so divided - is it because it's somehow too unfair to mix things? Why not go for it anyways?
I can answer this one as it pertains to the Grindstone: It was to explained to me when I asked similar questions that at the onset of the game's launch, a lot of roleplay styled itself towards super flashy mega-powerful mages and magic types. The Grindstone was partially created to give people not on that scale a place to hang out and meet other people of that same level of power.
To chime in on the OP questions and concerns (also, everyone else did a great job giving the kind of advice I'm probably about to repeat!):
1) Theme and rules
KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid
When it comes to fighting tournaments, you don't need to do a whole of work to justify it existing. Fight Club in the book/movie started as two guys (technically!) fighting each other. Others witnessed it and wanted in, and things grew. You could do something that simple: An FC wants to give their war division some more practice against new people, so a freely-joined tournament started up. You could wink at the meta and just explain it as never being able to make one of the other events so you're starting your own. War games, practice, King of the Iron Fist manipulation stuff: Sky's the limit.
Rules, though, should be as simple as you can possibly express them without people needing to keep track on a napkin of what happened. I actually wish we could streamline the Grindstone rules a little bit so we could pare down what's frequently a 3+ hour event but I'm slow to adjust tradition. The "trouble" with comparing attack and defense rolls is that sometimes the game wants to see two people fight for an hour and hold up an entire leg of the competition. I know a couple twists on the formula are in play: Spellguard features 2-on-2 fighting where one person is rolling team defense and the other is rolling team offense. The Gin Mill is testing a system where you roll at the start to determine the winner, and then you just write out the result for the next several minutes, with an emphasis on Cool over Mechanic. I wondered if there'd be some room to just do blackjack styled hands: You both roll once, highest gets the advantage that round, best-of-seven rolls kind of thing.
My advice would be that whatever you decide, you want people paying attention to the event itself, not the mechanics under the hood. Immersion (and fun) breaker possibilities. Just ask anyone who's ever tried to Grapple something in a D&D game.
2) Rules
Covered!
3) Management:
Hoo boy. I've mentioned a lot to people who've asked that running a successful event is a little bit like being a stage manager during a play production: You're working hard to make sure that the people in attendance are blissfully unaware of the commotion and panic and various bits of crisis that are happening behind the curtains.
Having people to rely on is key. Key. KEEEEEY. There's a ton of stuff to track during a combat event, up to and including
people's posts
their rolls
linkshell/party/fc communication
the various tells you'll be getting
people winning
tending to people who've lost
trying not to ignore anyone who tries to talk to you ICly
or OOCly
linkshells you have that AREN'T a part of the event
answering questions
directing traffic
The way I've learned to handle that is to outsource as much shit as I can to everyone I've got helping (and I'm incredibly lucky to have volunteers and offers every week from people). Depending on how many people you have turn up to fight, don't be afraid to turn your event into brackets: The Grindstone is basically 4 miniature tournaments every week on account of not wanting to crush the chat log by keeping everyone in one area. Split up what you've got if you must.
If you've got fighting, that means you'll have wounded. Be prepared for people to take damage beyond what would be expected to be "reasonable" in a semi-friendly setting, and if you can have a medical staff on hand to help give some additional RP to those bounced from the mechanical side of the tournament, that's great and fun. The big warning here, though, is that it's also very easy to take those volunteers for granted by expecting them to just be healbots. That destroys morale and should be avoided where it can. I've found gratuitous thankfulness helps a bit, as does never making demands for people to do anything specific.
Some generic advice: Start on time. Be flexible if people arrive late (especially if you have odd numbers that can make a tournament lopsided) but when you say "we begin at this time" you'll want to hold to that. Event organizers will feel bad for leaving people out who showed up late, but my mantra for this is "Run your event for the people who are present, not for who is absent." If you've got a dozen people in line ready to go, you're now weighing 1-2 stragglers' attendance against the dozen excited people who showed up before the opening bells.
This is kind of slapdash after a long morning of driving, so if you've got any specific questions feel free to hit me up. As mentioned though, the other folks in the thread did a good job of answering.
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Shoshopu - 01-27-2017
Why is Spellguard crossed out, Warren :< That's more like it! >:P
I'm going to echo everything Warren has said here. I've personally gone to him for advice many times since I've started running Spellguard, especially at the beginning. Consistency is key!
Something that might not have been mentioned (since the Grindstone is never wanting for people to participate, haha) is to never be discouraged by small turnouts. Especially if participation starts out strong and then tapers off later. It's natural for it to wax and wane, especially during long lulls between patches when less people are playing, or during the holidays. It's another facet of Warren's mantra, "Run your event for the people who are present, not for who is absent." Only concern yourself with who is at your event, and not who isn't. As long as enough people are there to run your event, well, you've had an event!
I'd be happy to brainstorm with you sometime or answer any specific questions you have, if you happen to reach me on your journey to reach out to others who run tournament events. I really, really like the pet tournament idea too, and if I didn't already have a tournament and a tavern that I help run, I would totally take that idea and run with it.
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Maia - 01-27-2017
On the subject of a "Minion Madness" tournament theme, our linkshell has run two such events and each were small but successful. (It's why I threw that idea out in tandem, heh.)
The downside is that it may be too "cutsey" for some, as more gorey/realistic emotes are kind of off-limits due to leading into uncomfortable animal cruelty territory.
But! If you'd like a narrative example of one of ours, here's a log: http://hostingstars.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2570428
Mind you, this event did involve rolling, which may not be entirely shown in the edit. There may also be some "DM"ing, since there was such a small and cozy turnout between an insular LS group.
Mainly I'm just saying that if you wanted to do a more left-field theme like this, there would probably be interest and there is plenty of room for both creativity and feasibility if constructed right!
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Oyuu - 01-27-2017
(01-27-2017, 02:40 PM)Aegir Wrote: I want to see a chocobo jousting tournament!I believe there was already one of those!Â
Gah, so many useful responses and so many good points and ideas raised, thank you to everyone for providing a fruitful discussion.
Regarding the mixing of magic and fighters, this was actually one of my first ideas thinking along Gegenji and Maril's lines that I shouldn't limit something to a rather small (well, much smaller than NA) community. This does poise an issue over balance I suppose, but most of the time I've experienced something like Ave where people understand they are not to go overboard and yeah, the fact the /random rolls make things fair. When using rolls in other events, I've always got the thought in mind that my character can fuck up their spell, or their opponent block it - just because he's a talented mage doesn't mean he'll always land the hit and it actually motivates me to be creative in my combat posts.Â
I don't doubt there's going to be that one person that will be like "but I lost to a ten year old with a wooden stick!" or whatever. Although, Maril brought up a good point considering this matter when it comes to lore - When does it become an unfair fight, putting rolls aside and focusing on the RP? How much of my preference to be lore-adhering should I allow when organising my event? Whilst I do not want to turn down players from joining, I can't ignore that there is the problem that some roleplayers may have issue with characters that are not lore-friendly or "broken" in terms of power. How strict should I be? In regards to magic, would implementing a rule such as "any questionable magicks may be questioned afterwards, please remember IC actions have IC consequences when using spells that are forbidden etc."
Minion tournaments sound cute, and I have been playing around with an idea inspired by Shatter. Instead of having players fight each other, they have an NPC target (could be something like ice or perhaps a creature?) to take down first. I thought this might be good for groups of players - just something I thought of at 4am so it may sound more stupid than I first thought, heh. Is there more fun to beating the crap out of other characters, or do you think the simple thrill of competition would be best?Â
Thanks to Warren and Shoshopu especially!! I will definitely take you up on your offer of help should I need it (probably feedback on the ideas themselves?) and you also gave great tips. "Run event for those that are present, not who are absent" is a damn good quote and something I will keep in mind! Small turn outs also don't scare me too much, I think I would faint if I got anything half of Grindstone's size! The limit on the number of turns might be a good idea too, I've suffered from watching a three-hour fight because no one could land an attack roll.Â
I'm not done taking notes just yet, so any advice, experiences or things you would like to see in a tournament event would be awesome to read! Thanks to everyone so far.
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Warren Castille - 01-27-2017
On the subject of lore-breaking characters, and how to reel them in:
Don't. Don't even try to, or think about it. People's personal arcs aren't something for anyone else to judge, and if they bring up something completely ridiculous feel free to give them benefit of the doubt, while also being free to doubt.
"I can't believe that I, the slayer of Bahamut and childhood friend of Raubahn and Azure Dragoon and 13th Chakra Monk, have been defeated in combat!"
That kind of behavior should be noted and ignored, in my opinion. Don't go full MST3K and snark on someone's story, but feel free to wonder incredulously about someone's accomplishments, especially if it sounds like they're trying to save face. Your job as an event organizer is to facilitate roleplay, not judge it or try to influence it in your favor. If people want to show up summoning DoomTrain-Egi, let them, and then wonder how much they spent on illusion dust to make their carbuncle look like a train.
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Aegir - 01-27-2017
...I do want to summon Doom Train-egi.
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Warren Castille - 01-27-2017
(01-27-2017, 09:23 PM)Aegir Wrote: ...I do want to summon Doom Train-egi.
Aegir plz
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Oyuu - 01-27-2017
(01-27-2017, 09:15 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: On the subject of lore-breaking characters, and how to reel them in:
Don't. Don't even try to, or think about it. People's personal arcs aren't something for anyone else to judge, and if they bring up something completely ridiculous feel free to give them benefit of the doubt, while also being free to doubt.
"I can't believe that I, the slayer of Bahamut and childhood friend of Raubahn and Azure Dragoon and 13th Chakra Monk, have been defeated in combat!"
That kind of behavior should be noted and ignored, in my opinion. Don't go full MST3K and snark on someone's story, but feel free to wonder incredulously about someone's accomplishments, especially if it sounds like they're trying to save face. Your job as an event organizer is to facilitate roleplay, not judge it or try to influence it in your favor. If people want to show up summoning DoomTrain-Egi, let them, and then wonder how much they spent on illusion dust to make their carbuncle look like a train.
Thanks for your reply - and yeah I agree. As long as they're not breaking the rules (by killing people or somehow fudging up the combat) I think I would be fine people turning up with their doomtrain-egi, I think it's just something people will have to deal with and it's not worth excluding that one person from a *public* event because they have a different flavour of RP to myself or others. Easily dealt with the IC doubt option as you mentioned, "whatever you say buddy, let's get on with this." Having an attitude of "well, that happened" and moving on would be best for everyone, I think.
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Aegir - 01-27-2017
(01-27-2017, 09:27 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(01-27-2017, 09:23 PM)Aegir Wrote: ...I do want to summon Doom Train-egi.
Aegir plz
![[Image: tumblr_okgwdz8icM1vfi4y5o1_540.jpg]](https://68.media.tumblr.com/53d27b59e7c4e43b3b1405da2ff05e20/tumblr_okgwdz8icM1vfi4y5o1_540.jpg)
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Shoshopu - 01-27-2017
(01-27-2017, 07:56 PM)Oyuu Wrote: I don't doubt there's going to be that one person that will be like "but I lost to a ten year old with a wooden stick!" or whatever. Although, Maril brought up a good point considering this matter when it comes to lore - When does it become an unfair fight, putting rolls aside and focusing on the RP? How much of my preference to be lore-adhering should I allow when organising my event? Whilst I do not want to turn down players from joining, I can't ignore that there is the problem that some roleplayers may have issue with characters that are not lore-friendly or "broken" in terms of power. How strict should I be? In regards to magic, would implementing a rule such as "any questionable magicks may be questioned afterwards, please remember IC actions have IC consequences when using spells that are forbidden etc."
Like Warren said, it's not the best idea to try lore-policing an event. It might be tempting to try, especially when someone complains (I've had people come to me concerned about overpowered characters winning the tournament, as if that had any influence on their /random rolls) but really it's best to just leave well enough alone unless the player actually starts causing... well, actual issues, but that should be addressed regardless of their lore adherence. Trying to put too many rules in place just in the interest of forcing people to be lore friendly just makes things more complicated for players, which is something you don't want. The more complicated something is, the less inclined people will be to give it a second look.
As far as "questionable magic" is concerned, for Spellguard I simply have an IC rule that forbidden and illegal magic isn't permitted and characters may face IC consequences for openly using it. Given that they're in the middle of the Mist, though, they're ICly surrounded by Maelstrom soldiers, so that may lend to it because players always tend to go along with it. I would think that a similar rule would be enough.
(01-27-2017, 07:56 PM)Oyuu Wrote: Minion tournaments sound cute, and I have been playing around with an idea inspired by Shatter. Instead of having players fight each other, they have an NPC target (could be something like ice or perhaps a creature?) to take down first. I thought this might be good for groups of players - just something I thought of at 4am so it may sound more stupid than I first thought, heh. Is there more fun to beating the crap out of other characters, or do you think the simple thrill of competition would be best?Â
Spellguard technically has a NPC target (the shield generators/the three layers of shielding generated by the node) so I think something like this could work, though it may help for immersion's sake if you can find a way to represent the NPC targets (some people at Spellguard choose to use the Accompaniment Node to represent their shield generators). I think it's definitely a unique idea, and we could use more of that. Maybe make it an IC spin on the Gold Saucer's Lord of Verminion game?
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Oyuu - 01-30-2017
(01-27-2017, 10:14 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: Like Warren said, it's not the best idea to try lore-policing an event. It might be tempting to try, especially when someone complains (I've had people come to me concerned about overpowered characters winning the tournament, as if that had any influence on their /random rolls) but really it's best to just leave well enough alone unless the player actually starts causing... well, actual issues, but that should be addressed regardless of their lore adherence. Trying to put too many rules in place just in the interest of forcing people to be lore friendly just makes things more complicated for players, which is something you don't want. The more complicated something is, the less inclined people will be to give it a second look.
As far as "questionable magic" is concerned, for Spellguard I simply have an IC rule that forbidden and illegal magic isn't permitted and characters may face IC consequences for openly using it. Given that they're in the middle of the Mist, though, they're ICly surrounded by Maelstrom soldiers, so that may lend to it because players always tend to go along with it. I would think that a similar rule would be enough.
Aye, it seems everyone's telling me to keep things simple when it comes to rules, which I definitely won't argue with! Easier for me and easier for the public. Letting the rolls determine who wins seems fairest, and as well as the addition of "no illegal/forbidden magic" rule, that should keep it all fine and dandy hopefully.Â
(01-27-2017, 10:14 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: Spellguard technically has a NPC target (the shield generators/the three layers of shielding generated by the node) so I think something like this could work, though it may help for immersion's sake if you can find a way to represent the NPC targets (some people at Spellguard choose to use the Accompaniment Node to represent their shield generators). I think it's definitely a unique idea, and we could use more of that. Maybe make it an IC spin on the Gold Saucer's Lord of Verminion game?
I really wish I could attend Spellguard so I could see how it works... and I've never played Lord of Verminion either. I'm missing out! Although I think a simple one vs. one tournament might be best, the reasoning behind why my characters would run such a thing would be easier to come up with since he's run similar things with his free company in the past.
When I fine tune a few ideas a bit more, I will probably be in touch with Shoshopu and Warren if that's alright? Thanks for all the help so far!
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - ExAtomos - 02-01-2017
(01-27-2017, 10:04 PM)Aegir Wrote:(01-27-2017, 09:27 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(01-27-2017, 09:23 PM)Aegir Wrote: ...I do want to summon Doom Train-egi.
Aegir plz
![[Image: tumblr_okp8fnVLK01vve9tgo1_1280.jpg]](https://68.media.tumblr.com/f007247fb7ad17796b83ce2ed1e292d6/tumblr_okp8fnVLK01vve9tgo1_1280.jpg)
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Aegir - 02-01-2017
(02-01-2017, 10:03 AM)ExAtomos Wrote:(01-27-2017, 10:04 PM)Aegir Wrote:(01-27-2017, 09:27 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(01-27-2017, 09:23 PM)Aegir Wrote: ...I do want to summon Doom Train-egi.
Aegir plz
![[Image: tumblr_inline_okpiqac3ZF1uvp0z8_540.jpg]](https://68.media.tumblr.com/09a63dea6b34a240f4be985ae365b3af/tumblr_inline_okpiqac3ZF1uvp0z8_540.jpg)
RE: Help with Tournament Ideas - Kazukata - 02-01-2017
(02-01-2017, 01:48 PM)Aegir Wrote:(02-01-2017, 10:03 AM)ExAtomos Wrote:(01-27-2017, 10:04 PM)Aegir Wrote:(01-27-2017, 09:27 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(01-27-2017, 09:23 PM)Aegir Wrote: ...I do want to summon Doom Train-egi.
Aegir plz
Needs more magitek rockets. 5/10, would not beat a carbuncle in a fight.