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+--- Thread: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales (/showthread.php?tid=9312)
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RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 12-19-2014
(12-19-2014, 09:56 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: OF COURSE the other ninja doesn't attack the nail and we wipe to inferno.
My personal favorite "wingnuts who ignore the fight mechanics" situations so far are both in Guildhests - those who ignore the "you have to kill them all basically at the same time" mechanic in that one level 40 one whose name I can never remember...
And the DPS who never move off of the turtle in... Heroes on a Half Shell or whatever it's called? I've taken to just spamming Flash, standing around, or even dragging the turtle over to the Fire Spirit. I've been lucky enough that usually ONE DPS is paying enough attention that the turtle hasn't been straight-up killed yet... but I'm thinking it's only a matter of time.
(12-19-2014, 09:58 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: The way I see it, Paladins have a one-two-three structure with steady threat abilities and cooldowns to keep them alive. They play a piano, and it's a beautiful song. People who enjoy structured playstyles tend to enjoy it and hold it as superior, from what I've noticed.
Warriors: You have your box of hammers and your job is to find a way to fuck up as MANY things with those hammers as possible and keep them as angry as possible at you while your buddies wreck them. It's visceral, wild, thrilling and requires that triggery sort of nature. Playstyle for the wild ones!
I like that comparison. I suppose I'm the pianist, though. I like being able to steadily maintain threat and have all those cooldowns for when things start getting hairy. Also being able to heal yourself when the healer goes down in some situations is REALLY handy (I EXPLAINED to you how the Cutter's Cry Chimera boss' eyes work BEFORE the fight, why do you keep getting thundered to death?) in squeaking out a win over having to do the whole thing again.
There IS something viscerally fun about just spamming Overpower, though. Especially when you pop Berserk, Bloodlust, and Convalescence. Sure, you may not be healing a lot but SO MANY GREEN NUMBERS.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kage - 12-19-2014
To be honest I find WAR/MRD tanking much better than PLD/GLA in terms of how -easy- it is to keep and maintain agro.
Especially once you get butcher's block.
What I do in dungeons for pulls (and not like.. large pulls LOLSNOWCLOAK)
Tomahawk.
As they run to me... OVERPOWER
Flash Flash
Butcher's block combo on main
OVERPOWER
Then use Butcher's block but start spreading it.
I shouldn't lose agro unless they're being aoe'd down and in that case a few more OVERPOWER or Flash may be needed.
Ever since 50 I've had a -lot- less moments where I go "lol wait TP"
And it's only when I've biiiig pulls and had blown a few "defensive" cooldowns.
The best thing of ST before I ditched it and just farmed T7-8 is...
Hi main tank. Or off-tanks. I realize you all want to hit the main mob squeeze. But I'd like to heal you without worrying that I attracted every. single. non-main mob. possible.
Thank you.
"/sh OTs please grab adds so people can get healed"
Edit: hehe... Mechanics from enrage.
I forgot that my WAR is STR spec'd and typically starts off with strength accessories.
Go into Moogle HM.
Be told I get King.
Forget how much damage I do cause I JUST UNCHAINED + BERSERK + INTERNAL RELEASE AAAAAAWWWW YIIS
Wait - OH SHIT IS THAT 60% OH SHIT THAT'S MEMENTO. OH FUCK ONLY ONE MOOGLE HAS DIED
"oops I forgot that I do damage..."
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Melkire - 12-19-2014
*shoves paladins to the side and boldly steps forth*
Ahem. Common practice for leveling WARs / new players who are leveling WAR is as follows for pulls involving multiple mobs:
1. Tomahawk.
2. Overpower.
3. Overpower.
4. Start Butcher's Block combo.
5. If necessary, weave Flashes between weaponskills.
6. If Flashes prove insufficient, insert as many Overpowers as you deem necessary inbetween your combos.
7. If you're in real danger of losing multiple mobs, break your weapon combo in order to Overpower.
8. Remember that Skull Sunder and Butcher's Block have better single-target returns on enmity than Overpower.
After each pull, reassess your need for snap aggro based on how quickly or slowly your DDs were pulling off you, and then adjust how often you Overpower and Flash accordingly. You'll need more if you're significantly outgeared and/or a DRG/BRD/BLM is getting lucky with crits or procs. You can settle for less if you outgear your DPS and/or your DPS consists primarily of single-target DDs. These are general guidelines, not rules: if on a particular pull you feel you need to adjust in a certain direction, DO SO.
Do keep in mind that Overpower and Flash are both tools, not crutches. Don't mindlessly spam Overpower, and strictly speaking Flash isn't necessary (in fact, later on you'll want to swap it out in some endgame instances for different CDs) though it has its uses (snaps aggro on mobs behind you and to the side, doesn't wake slept mobs, can be used at any time without breaking weaponskill combos). Also keep in mind that, owing to its nature as a weaponskill, Overpower scales better with level and gear compared to Flash.
I personally prefer to save my MP so that I can Flash after Berserk runs out, since the large majority of healers are either incapable of or don't bother with cleansing the four-second Pacification (and SCHs don't get Leeches until level 40 anyway).
Tips to help manage your TP better:
1. Use Wrath-reliant weaponskills (Infuriate and Steel Cyclone) whenever possible. They are TP-free weaponskills, so the sooner you use them the more often you're saving yourself from using some TP AND giving yourself time to recover TP. You can only use them once you hit 5 Wrath stacks, which are built through combo'd SS, combo'd BB, combo'd Maim, combo'd SP/SE, Berserk, Vengeance, and Infuriate.
In your case Gegenji, since you're only level 37 and don't have Steel Cyclone yet (a big help with AoE enmity), you should be using Inner Beast whenever you can unless there's a big hit you need to mitigate, in which case hang on to your stacks and time your IB.
2. Substitute Flash (and Steel Cyclone once you have it) for Overpower every once in a while. Â
3. Refrain from using Tomahawk unless it's for initiating a pull (standard practice) or following up a Provoke attempt to peel an errant mob off a DD/healer back onto yourself from range. Combo'd Butcher's Block peels better for less TP. Yes, you'll have to give up on all the hard work and effort that went into arranging the other mobs in the perfect positions, but walk on over there and BB that sucker anyway.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 12-19-2014
Speaking of tanks, I may or may not get irrationally annoyed with them when I've finished buffing up everyone before a boss pull and give them Eye-for-an-Eye... and they just sit there. Doubly so if someone's done a ready check and everyone's come back as ready and raring to go.
That Adlo and Eye are ticking down, man! Get to movin'!
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kage - 12-19-2014
(12-19-2014, 04:32 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Speaking of tanks, I may or may not get irrationally annoyed with them when I've finished buffing up everyone before a boss pull and give them Eye-for-an-Eye... and they just sit there. Doubly so if someone's done a ready check and everyone's come back as ready and raring to go.Not just the Adlo and Eye... I FUCKING CRIT THAT ADLO. GREEN IS GO MOFO TANK YOU ALREADY DID READY CHECK
That Adlo and Eye are ticking down, man! Get to movin'!
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Steel Wolf - 12-19-2014
*starts taking notes for his Rawrior rotations, checking them against the commentariat*
Hmm...so far so good...though question--the second I hit five stacks, I tend to blast off a Steel Cyclone or an Inner Beast (unless the ST is near-dead anyway). Am I "doing it wrong scrublord noobkid lrn 2 play"?
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - McBeefâ„¢ - 12-19-2014
(12-19-2014, 04:51 PM)Steel Wolf Wrote: *starts taking notes for his Rawrior rotations, checking them against the commentariat*
Hmm...so far so good...though question--the second I hit five stacks, I tend to blast off a Steel Cyclone or an Inner Beast (unless the ST is near-dead anyway). Am I "doing it wrong scrublord noobkid lrn 2 play"?
That's perfectly fine. Some fights you need to save your wrath stacks for a perfect inner beast or steel cyclone though, since Warriors can't really rotate cooldowns like a pally can. For normal fights though it shouldn't be an issue.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Whittledown - 12-19-2014
When I'm playing WAR I tend to bounce targets a lot to keep an eye on enmity. My typical opening goes like this:
Tomahawk
Overpower
Overpower
Flash
Start 1-2-3 rotation on main target
Since 2 & 3 are so good at building enmity vs Overpower I like to cycle them through my other targets as well. So I'll hit 1 then tab to the next one and if it's appropriate drop 2 on them then go to the next one and if it's appropriate drop 3 on them.
By the time I've gone through that cycle and hit Vengeance (which is so goddamn useful you guys it's amazing) I'm ready for a Steel Cyclone and repeat.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kellach Woods - 12-19-2014
I'll typically do Tom/Provoke/Tom myself because I tend to be super TP conservative for moments like these.
And yeah, I don't think tanking is for me in this game. I do like to play fast and loose but I like weird mechanics. Like, when I realized that I finally got blind on my Flash for GLA I was like "SWEET MERCIFUL DAMAGE MITIGATION THROUGH STATUS EFFECTS WHAAAAA THAT'S SO COOL!" when I know fully well that's not how it plays. So far, none of the tank classes have that, although PLD seems more structured. I might dip my hand in there eventually but I fear I'll have to have a boring Cross-Class loadout because half of the cool shit you'd want will be covered by the Healer anyway.
I hate Berserk like the plague and almost never use it. I like having access to my abilities at all times way too much for it to be reliable, and if I've learned something in this game is that relying on others is just the best way to be disappointed.
I guess I also exaggerate how much I lose threat on stuff too - I typically run OT on Syrcus because while I still lose threat sometimes, I'd still like to think I'm useful on 2nd/3rd pull on the adds.
but then again I am ass at this game so w/e.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Nebbs - 12-19-2014
Bla bla random tank stuff jumping in here..
There are two main ways multiple mobs are killed that means you have to adjust how you tank.
1. Sequential -Â DPS kill them sinple target style in the order you mark
- DPS kill in a random order - So you need to mark the kill order
- Healers pull hate from all engaged mobs - so you still need a few Flash/Overpower in there
- Alternatively you can spread your rotation across the mobs, using the highest hate blows for the mod that you are fighting the DPS on
- DPS and Healers get hate on all mobs - so you need to maintain hate on all mobs with Flash/Overpower and spreading any rotation
- You have to dodge mob aoe attacks, and make sure to gather them up
- Best to mark the first kill for the single target DPS as you will have to put rotations into this
- Best to blow several Flash/Overpower to grab sufficiently the rest of the mobs
- And that WHM doing Holy.. just hang in there and get your provokes ready
Now for some insights that might help you sleep at night, when you loose aggro
- DPS have ways to stop getting hate, skills, switching targets, stopping to press buttons and the ultimate hate dump = death.
- Most dead party members who pulled hate didn't stop their hate generation, and even if you had tried to get it back you would likely loose hate to the dpsing WHM from the other mobs.
- When the party plays on the limits then stuff is going to come loose and that is okay. The aim is to not wipe more than it is to not have deaths. So be a big picture tanker and let a few eggs break.
- Most problem causes generally end up with a symptom at the tank end. So even though it might seem your fault it is likely this occurred some place else.. missed heals, slow dps, stupid pet etc..
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kellach Woods - 12-20-2014
Syrcusssssssss
Drop the goddamn mask already.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Parvacake - 12-20-2014
Fucking. RNGeebus. Can suck my (insert expletive here).
Seriously? I have high quality maxed out food buff, high quality everything from materia melded equipment to HQ equipment itself and the class weapon, and you STILL fail me -5 times in a (*Y$)*IR row- for Hasty Touch.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - McBeefâ„¢ - 12-20-2014
(12-19-2014, 08:00 PM)Nebbs Wrote: Bla bla random tank stuff jumping in here..
There are two main ways multiple mobs are killed that means you have to adjust how you tank.
1. Sequential -Â DPS kill them sinple target style in the order you mark2. Parallel - DPS AoE all the mobs down
- DPS kill in a random order - So you need to mark the kill order
- Healers pull hate from all engaged mobs - so you still need a few Flash/Overpower in there
- Alternatively you can spread your rotation across the mobs, using the highest hate blows for the mod that you are fighting the DPS on
3. It has to be complicated - You get a single target dps and an aoe dps and a hate creating healer
- DPS and Healers get hate on all mobs - so you need to maintain hate on all mobs with Flash/Overpower and spreading any rotation
- You have to dodge mob aoe attacks, and make sure to gather them up
- Best to mark the first kill for the single target DPS as you will have to put rotations into this
- Best to blow several Flash/Overpower to grab sufficiently the rest of the mobs
- And that WHM doing Holy.. just hang in there and get your provokes ready
Now for some insights that might help you sleep at night, when you loose aggroJust some random thoughts from a life in the Tank lane by someone who is a psycho DPSer at heart.
- DPS have ways to stop getting hate, skills, switching targets, stopping to press buttons and the ultimate hate dump = death.
- Most dead party members who pulled hate didn't stop their hate generation, and even if you had tried to get it back you would likely loose hate to the dpsing WHM from the other mobs.
- When the party plays on the limits then stuff is going to come loose and that is okay. The aim is to not wipe more than it is to not have deaths. So be a big picture tanker and let a few eggs break.
- Most problem causes generally end up with a symptom at the tank end. So even though it might seem your fault it is likely this occurred some place else.. missed heals, slow dps, stupid pet etc..
Alternative: Pld use flash until mana is gone
War use bloodbath + beserk + steel cyclone then overpower 2-3 times
No mob will ever get away,
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 12-20-2014
(12-20-2014, 03:58 PM)Lilithium Wrote: Fucking. RNGeebus. Can suck my (insert expletive here).
Seriously? I have high quality maxed out food buff, high quality everything from materia melded equipment to HQ equipment itself and the class weapon, and you STILL fail me -5 times in a (*Y$)*IR row- for Hasty Touch.
I don't have quite this level of gear on my crafting classes on my main, but I suffer the same frustration while trying to make stuff. ESPECIALLY for those Ixal dailies where you suddenly have, like, 50 CP to work with.
I actually just started ignoring those completely.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kage - 12-20-2014
When I heard that even max melded 50 crafts could fail the ixali stuff I stopped.
Got my last DOH to 50. Fuck them oakgil shit.