(05-16-2014, 05:53 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:(05-16-2014, 03:24 PM)Ildur Wrote: Clearly achieving a high rank because of combos or whatever requires some form of skill, but isn't it an optional part of the game? If I go play DMC right now, do I need an S rank to beat all the bosses and finish the game?This is almost entirely besides the point. I was particularly responding to this:
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(05-16-2014, 02:35 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Very fast paced hack-and-slash games like DMC don't have (and can't have) the same level of skill-based challenge that games like DS or MH, or even TERA to a degree.Bolded by me for emphasis.
This is simply a patently false statement. Whether or not the game requires it is immaterial; the game is STILL more than capable of possessing the same level of skill-based challenge and even more so because the mechanics are actually deeper. It's even false to suggest that Dark Souls is less forgiving; certainly at its base level it is less forgiving for actually getting through the game, but trying to S-rank a Platinum game or DMC is easily a match for a Souls games' level of challenge.
The rules change when you make such an attempt: you can only make so many mistakes before you just have to start over. You have to have a level of systems mastery well beyond that which is required to simply 'beat' a game, and to say that the games are easier or cannot have as much skill-based challenge because that baseline exists is simply disingenuous. The Souls games essentially force a rule on the player that says "you can only make this many mistakes before you die" while removing any semblance of 'difficulty settings'; trying to S-rank a character action game is essentially the same thing, only without the sudden death (and even then, there are difficulty settings designed to kill you very, very fast).
To put it another way: if you put the same limitations on the player between a Souls game and a character action game (you die in 'X' amount of hits), the latter will easily breach the former in difficulty simply because there are so many more game elements to keep track of, both in terms of the player toolset and in terms of what the enemies actually bring to the party. A lot of Dark Souls' difficulty, for example, comes from the player actually being limited in what they can do. Your weapons only have a handful of attacks; most of these attacks have lengthy windup and recovery times; your roll has a limited number of invulnerability frames; EVERYTHING you do costs you stamina.
That's one aspect of difficulty, and it's perfectly valid, but a character action game derives part of its difficulty from the fact that the player has a HUGE toolbox and must learn to utilize it effectively. A Souls game effectively hamstrings the player off the bat in the name of making things difficult (which itself is only a means to draw the player into the world further), which is simply not what a character action game is designed to do. It's because of this that Dark Souls fails to retain any semblance of challenge once a player has attained systems mastery; it's not actually a particularly deep game mechanically, it just does a good job of limiting the player to make things difficult and unforgiving.
Anyway, I hope that helps bring across where I'm coming from. From where I'm standing I just can't bring myself to agree with such an absolute statement. Such games can and do have an incredibly high level of skill-based challenge. Perhaps you have to actively seek it to find it, but you can't just deny that it exists.
There are hard parts of World of Warcraft, too, like challenge dungeons. Â They ain't really for the weak. Â I wouldn't say World of Warcraft is a hard game because you can find challenges if you hit endgame and look, it's not the meat and potatoes of the game. Â Hell, you could play through Street Fighter only using light attacks and no specials and you would have, by definition, made the game more difficult. Â The point is, you don't have to, so no, it doesn't really exist in a way we would give it credit for.
DMC wasn't made to be a skill-based game at its core, it's meant to be awesomeâ„¢. Â Dante was essentially a Japanese goth-metal version of Duke Nukem. Â There are things you can do in the game that are harder than the base game, but they're not the base game. Â So no, they may as well not be there. Â If you couldn't keep track of a million things going on at once and survive, you wouldn't make it past the first level of Ikaruga no matter how many extra lives they gave you. Â You could tell someone point blank how to beat a boss, and you'll still die repeatedly trying to get up enough skill to do it. Â Both of these things are devastatingly difficult compared to Devil May Cry.
It's why I wouldn't patently say that WoW is harder than EVE even though WoW's endgame stuff is mindbendingly difficult compared to the F1 whoring in EVE. Â WoW's basic gist of the game, its meat and potatoes, is almost coddlingly simple. Â Even EVE's meat and potatoes, namely doing missions and cosmic anomalies, is at least more difficult than that. Â It doesn't matter that the fight with Garrosh is a toothbreaker in a heroic raid, WoW is just plain easier because it's a lot more forgiving when someone screws up in the body of the game.
And, again, DMC isn't as heavily dependent on your skills to proceed because Capcom made that game to be experienced and enjoyed, not overcome. Â Trust me, Capcom can make you weep blood if they feel like it. Â They've made games where trying to complete ranks is a world away because the game difficulty bashes you on the head and makes you learn to play. Â Hell, I'd say even Monster Hunter is harder than Devil May Cry on its own because it's ENTIRELY skill based and a helluva lot less forgiving.
So, don't get us wrong, it's not like we're saying Devil May Cry wasn't a good game. Â It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Â It was a brilliant fireworks display, but it wasn't meant to be a bludgeon the way some games are. Â If it was supposed to be, it would be and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
On that note, though, I wonder how that Monster Hunter MMO Tencent is developing is coming along. Â If Capcom will be damned for anything, it's not capitalizing on Monster Hunter by really pushing the series in the States and EU. Â Still have to call it the best game series on the planet, and I'd pay good money for a subscription to an ever-expanding, ever developing Monster Hunter world. Â They have every reason to, considering Monster Hunter IV was their best-selling title and their sole representative on the year-end top ten best sellers list last year.
God, I hate Capcom's business prick crust. Â They're in any conversation to name the world's best video game developer and, because of their business wing that markets the games and directs funding, they're missing the open goals. Â Lost Planet, essentially the Sci-Fi version of Monster Hunter? Â Floundering. Â Their Monster Hunter MMORPG? Â Being developed by a Chinese company for China. Â Their cancellation of Mega Man Legends 3 was a slap in the face to their loyal old-school fanbase that is still getting grumbled about whenever I bring the company up. Â Their Resident Evil series, once important enough to have movies made about it, is now a magnet for accusations of racism instead of a font of horror. Â They can thank God Dragon's Dogma turned out better than we thought it might be.
Capcom's business wing even admitted that it was their fault that the company missed expectations last year. Â This year's agenda includes improving game quality by ending outsourcing to other development companies, actually releasing developers to put together some DLC, and retuning their mobile market. Â It's like their business staff have been living under a bridge. Â Did they miss the online gaming phenomenon, Steam, the sudden development of DLC on consoles, and the dramatic upswing in high-quality game titles in an incredibly competitive market? Â Those developments only started in the early 2000s, I guess, so it's not like it's been a decade that they've somehow not grasped the changing nature of what video games constitute.
All I can say is that if their games lineup wasn't born of extremely strong proprietary IPs and that they genuinely seem to be able to develop gems in spite of themselves, Capcom would be tanking right now. Â As it is, they finally saw profits fall and games miss sales targets. Â They need to get serious.