Hydaelyn Role-Players

I have only dealt with one troll bothering an rp event with crude comments once since being on Balmung though I do want to point out that BALMUNG IS NOT AN OFFICIALLY LABELED RP SERVER BY SE.
It is NOT our server.
It is EVERYONE'S server.

It is just the unofficial RP server along with Gilgamesh.

I think it's about time we started getting specific examples if we're actually going to take a closer look at what the OP raises.

(01-10-2016, 09:16 PM)V Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-10-2016, 07:01 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: [ -> ]We've certainly had issues on a few particular topics, usually in regards to roleplaying as mages with soulstones, but I've yet to see anyone going "you're RP is invalid and/or wrong" due to it. The common answer I have seen is "that RP is not for me."

Disagree. In almost every single thread about contentious rp subjects there is a small chorus of people asserting that the roleplay being discussed is wrong, often going as far as ignoring established lore to do it. Expressions of tolerance for other people roleplaying "wrong" are typically secondary to informing people their RP is "wrong".

Also, there isn't a single person on this site I'd consider a "leader". "Loud" would be more accurate.

This is interesting, because it has to do with one of the points from Momo's post I agree with, sorta. I think that in chardev in particular, a lot of advice isn't necessarily for the benefit of the new player but rather to code for RP that the users like. It is probably not so much for building reputation, as a lot of posters have social capital here just by virtue of visibility and seniority.

Players give advice or discourage newcomers from playing RP concepts they don't want to see by enforcing a soft "fanon" that is not in line with the numerous lore posts spread across the forum and FFXIV's wiki/datamining. It isn't enforcing anything because it's in the guise of suggestions. Therefore, it doesn't appear to be saying directly "this RP is wrong." This is part of the wish that the game reflect the FFXIV they imagine it is, and not the one we actually play.

(01-10-2016, 09:16 PM)V Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-10-2016, 07:01 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: [ -> ]We've certainly had issues on a few particular topics, usually in regards to roleplaying as mages with soulstones, but I've yet to see anyone going "you're RP is invalid and/or wrong" due to it. The common answer I have seen is "that RP is not for me."

Disagree. In almost every single thread about contentious rp subjects there is a small chorus of people asserting that the roleplay being discussed is wrong, often going as far as ignoring established lore to do it. Expressions of tolerance for other people roleplaying "wrong" are typically secondary to informing people their RP is "wrong".

Also, there isn't a single person on this site I'd consider a "leader". "Loud" would be more accurate.

^ This. All of this.

One can just go over every single post about WHM and DRG to see some of what I believe the OP is trying to point out, to point out just a couple dozen specific examples. Usually it is from the same people saying the same stuff every single time. Each of these posts are, in short, echo chambers of loudly shouted personal preference coupled with the threat of "conform this or we will exclude you." It should be pointed out that this is the exact opposite of what what people are saying they prefer to see in this very thread. This is part of the problem, no one willing to say/recognize that such are behaviors that are a problem.

For some, actual helpfulness and reasonable discussion fall absolutely fall by the wayside in favor of loud shouting of the same opinions, outright insults, and promises censure for refusal to conform. This is another point Momo brings up, and it is fairly valid. So is pointing out that this is not the way things were in the past. Yes, there were disagreements and arguments. There was not a whole sale attitude of "we will exclude you if you do not conform." In fact, as others have pointed out, that sort of thing was actively discouraged. It is absolutely true that things just change, but that does not mean that things change for the better. In my opinion, they have not. We seem to have gone from a community of creatives discussing and offering input on one another's ideas to an echo chamber of loudly shouting assholes saying "conform to what we or we just won't include you." While this is not true of everyone on this forum, it is true that one walks away with that impression with a larger number of the posts here. This is not a positive change, but the OP brings up the point that there can be reflection on where this place has been and where we wish it to go. What has changed once, can change again.

For all of the commentary on the structure of the original post, we all do seem to be able to get was Momo was going for, and we should reflect on what was said. While there are bits and bobs of what was said that I do not necessarily agree with, all of it is worth thinking about. More than a little of it is true, even if accepting that is a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

(01-10-2016, 05:09 PM)Momo Wrote: [ -> ]Now with all that fresh in your mind, know this, when you refuse to play the game, the actual god honest game that FFXIV is, you are doing everyone a disservice.

This is my opening salvo and all I have to say to this is 'Uhhh... what.'

(01-10-2016, 05:09 PM)Momo Wrote: [ -> ]I know I know, once more hearken back to my above comments, and feed me the lines I gave just as I gave them, but the truth is the truth and I didn't choose it, nor is my "opinion" on the subject, merely something random and made up without factual basis. From the balking and the shouts and rants of Non-RPers on our server, it is the actual reality of it.

No, it's actually just your opinion.

(01-10-2016, 05:09 PM)Momo Wrote: [ -> ]Non-RPers basically hate us

Yeah bullshit. Maybe some do, but fuck those guys, if they don't like it they can transfer. People like that won't be happy no matter where they go.

(01-10-2016, 05:09 PM)Momo Wrote: [ -> ]So when you enter with this mindset, "I don't care what anyone does or says, I pay, so I can do what I want, and basically screw anyone else who wants to enjoy the game itself as well as RP or otherwise, because I paid and I should be able to do what I want!", you are genuinely going against the grain and fiber of the implied purpose of the game.

It's an MMO, not Heavy Rain. So long as you pay your sub fee, you can log in once a month, write a very in-depth emote of your character taking a massive dump, check your retainers and log out and you'd still be playing the game.

(01-10-2016, 05:09 PM)Momo Wrote: [ -> ]And in doing so, you are further allowing those who are dissenters against RPers, to in actuality be right about what they say: "RPers suck, they don't know or care about playing the actual game, they are mostly just taking up space an annoying us while we actually try to play."

Who cares? Seriously, who gives a shit. They're faceless people behind a screen in god-knows-where complaining on the Internet, wow. Wow.

(01-10-2016, 05:09 PM)Momo Wrote: [ -> ]Even if you aren't an avid gamer, you can play to your level, you can and will get negative comments, but it is the internet, we soldier on for our own enjoyment.  You can stop looking at the actual game part of the RPG we share as some sort of "work" to be done, it is meant to be engaging and fun rather than work, and grinding is at your own pace of course.  You can choose to help your FC or LS members with things, grow your Rank together, use the buffs given, make friends with those who are not RPers (because frankly we are lucky on Balmung, and there are some amazing Non-RPers here), and just generally put yourself out there to do something that isn't for personal gain, and have real fun and be of more literal use than someone we can call upon to provide a "good character".

Don't tell me how to live my life. How would you feel if I told you all my facts and truths about people who don't play Verminion are ruining this game because the devs put a lot of work into it and it's part of the full game how dare you don't play it. Seriously though you don't get to decide what people enjoy and don't enjoy. If someone doesn't want to do content... ... ?????? I'll reiterate: Who cares? There are no rules on how to properly play an MMO, just Terms of Service. And be of use, what the hell? We're not trying to open the gates of Ahn'Qiraj here, Christ.

Not going to lie dude, this whole rant either seems like something you wrote when you were piss drunk or something. This whole part about "playing the game all proper like" seems to me more like a scared rant from someone afraid of getting bullied by the big scary PvEers than anything else. You do your own thing I'll worry about me, yeah? Shouldn't be too hard, I've no idea who you are and I've never seen you in-game, so... Some community, huh?

And lest you, or anyone else forget:

(01-10-2016, 11:59 PM)Yssen Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-10-2016, 09:16 PM)V Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-10-2016, 07:01 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: [ -> ]We've certainly had issues on a few particular topics, usually in regards to roleplaying as mages with soulstones, but I've yet to see anyone going "you're RP is invalid and/or wrong" due to it. The common answer I have seen is "that RP is not for me."

Disagree. In almost every single thread about contentious rp subjects there is a small chorus of people asserting that the roleplay being discussed is wrong, often going as far as ignoring established lore to do it. Expressions of tolerance for other people roleplaying "wrong" are typically secondary to informing people their RP is "wrong".

Also, there isn't a single person on this site I'd consider a "leader". "Loud" would be more accurate.

^ This. All of this.

One can just go over every single post about WHM and DRG to see some of what I believe the OP is trying to point out, to point out just a couple dozen specific examples. Usually it is from the same people saying the same stuff every single time. Each of these posts are, in short, echo chambers of loudly shouted personal preference coupled with the threat of "conform this or we will exclude you." It should be pointed out that this is the exact opposite of what what people are saying they prefer to see in this very thread. This is part of the problem, no one willing to say/recognize that such are behaviors that are a problem.

For some, actual helpfulness and reasonable discussion fall absolutely fall by the wayside in favor of loud shouting of the same opinions, outright insults, and promises censure for refusal to conform. This is another point Momo brings up, and it is fairly valid. So is pointing out that this is not the way things were in the past. Yes, there were disagreements and arguments. There was not a whole sale attitude of "we will exclude you if you do not conform." In fact, as others have pointed out, that sort of thing was actively discouraged. It is absolutely true that things just change, but that does not mean that things change for the better. In my opinion, they have not. We seem to have gone from a community of creatives discussing and offering input on one another's ideas to an echo chamber of loudly shouting assholes saying "conform to what we or we just won't include you." While this is not true of everyone on this forum, it is true that one walks away with that impression with a larger number of the posts here. This is not a positive change, but the OP brings up the point that there can be reflection on where this place has been and where we wish it to go. What has changed once, can change again.

For all of the commentary on the structure of the original post, we all do seem to be able to get was Momo was going for, and we should reflect on what was said. While there are bits and bobs of what was said that I do not necessarily agree with, all of it is worth thinking about. More than a little of it is true, even if accepting that is a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

The question then becomes what are you supposed to do when people say "Does this character concept work?" are you... not supposed to answer? I always see a bunch of people come in and go "You can play whatever you want =D" but that isn't helpful - obviously the person asked for imput if they wanted to play whatever they wanted they wouldn't have made the thread (Unless they were looking for an echo chamber of how great their character is, but that's another subject). I know in the past I've offered advice about character concepts and said I didn't personally jive with some of them, but always added "But you can play whatever you want" at the end so they know it's just my opinion. Should I not offer that kind of advice? Is that seen as pushing my own agenda?

While I agree that some posts and posters of the "you shouldn't RP this" go far and beyond, I believe that for the most part people are quite polite and that they are only giving a forewarning for caution.

It sounds like you disagree so my question is, what do you believe people should do? I do not believe that everyone should and need to RP with everyone. I believe that if you do dislike it and someone comes up to you asking what the response may be like that you should express it. If everyone is just fine with the reactions and are happy to RP X Y and Z in their own group, I believe everyone else should quietly grumble that they do not like it and will not engage and then -stop-.

If a new roleplayer comes with something most people will not want to roleplay with, what is your suggestion? Should we then be silent and watch as possible other threads are made about "why won't someone roleplay with me?" Or should we say, "Here's some things in the game I believe can support your idea. Not everyone will like it but I'm sure there will be someone who does and some people may not roleplay it. If you are fine with this, go for it!" At least then, they won't be without a clue.

If your response is that everyone should welcome that idea and roleplay with it, I vehemently disagree with you.

Edit:
Also your idea of PVEr vs RPer is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Most of shout is a trollfest shitstorm. Through all that, I raided through 2.55, beating T13 before it was unlocked into Duty Finder. For my early raiding, I raided with a great group of people in an RP FC (to T7). After that I raided almost exclusively with just PVE FCs and groups. None of them gave a shit's arse about RPers.

I can't exactly comment on how people use their game time playing game content or not. I personally am a bit disinterested in endgame content and am more interested in my connections and relationships that I've formed, so I can't judge someone for how they use their game time.

There are many times when people focus only on their own characters, with entire chats being dominated by "My character this, my character that", by multiple people, without really having a real exchange other than to talk about themselves? It has gotten to the point sometimes where I just check out of chat entirely when that happens. I guess I can understand that people are into and proud of their characters, but there doesn't seem to be any real conversation going on other than ego stroking? Maybe others are more comfortable with this than I am, but it's not terribly inviting.

Also, the atmosphere isn't often inviting to new people. There are some people who are quite welcoming when someone new makes an introduction, and some people make an effort to answer questions, but often times you have to fight your way in to be noticed by other people. Even in my own experience, it took a long time of actively including myself in chat to reach a point where I was recognized by others. For a while I would chime in and get ignored completely. Unfortunately this is a common occurrence in RP communities, and I kind of anticipated something like that would happen from my previous experience.

As far as relaying information goes, it doesn't really hurt to inform other people of events going on. Not everyone is aware that events that are going on, and it helps to strengthen the visibility of gatherings that people organize. Is it something everyone should do every time? No. It wouldn't hurt to make an effort some time, though. The "if people want information they can find it themselves" approach is a bit selfish to me. There are plenty of people that are looking for a place to RP at any given time, and sometimes relaying this info gives people an opportunity to get involved in something they may not have known about.

(01-11-2016, 01:35 AM)Alderique Wrote: [ -> ]Even in my own experience, it took a long time of actively including myself in chat to reach a point where I was recognized by others. For a while I would chime in and get ignored completely. Unfortunately this is a common occurrence in RP communities, and I kind of anticipated something like that would happen from my previous experience.

It happened to me too, a.k.a. Tortles!

Its not fun, very much otherwise. I think its just something that happens in most communities, whether virtual or not. Developing friendships takes effort and time. And, above all, patience and perseverance. Sometimes life sucks, but just trying to get there is half the experience.

I don't see many bad things in our community. Plenty of imperfections, of good intentions that go unfulfilled, of people biting off more than they can chew, of new people falling through the cracks. Of people not succeeding...

But I think most people do the best they can to be friendly and helpful to at least some extent. All in all I cannot say that I am dissatisfied with the RPC, or Balmung RP (I have no experience with other FF RP I am afraid). Criticism here and there may be helpful, but I felt like most of this was off-the-mark at least in my experience.

Nonetheless, Momo always strikes me as the earnest and strident sort. I take it all as honest personal assessment if nothing else

Last thing: I also agree that the criticism of responses to "what about this character concept?" questions really leaves no option. Anything critical, even if constructive, cannot be side-stepped. Maybe it is a matter of "do what I like or else I'll ignore you", some of us don't really want to have sparkle-vampire demi-gods of edgitude intruding seriously into our canon character perception. We all have our ways of dealing with such clashes of imagination: simply ignoring is honestly one of the more gentle and least passive-aggressive. Sharing that sort of advice, "oh yes, by the way, this idea is so off-the-wall bonkers that some people are liable to not want to interact with you" is not strictly passive-aggressive chest-thumping, its actual advice on what reactions may be (the poster's included).

If we're to refrain from that sort of thing we're not actually able to do "any good", but instead are resigning ourselves to watching the train wreck. I don't see kindness or community in that.

(01-11-2016, 01:11 AM)Kage Wrote: [ -> ]Also your idea of PVEr vs RPer is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Most of shout is a trollfest shitstorm. Through all that, I raided through 2.55, beating T13 before it was unlocked into Duty Finder. For my early raiding, I raided with a great group of people in an RP FC (to T7). After that I raided almost exclusively with just PVE FCs and groups. None of them gave a shit's arse about RPers.

Yeah being a raider myself, and having an FC that allows non-RPers in it, I can honestly say the raiding community could give less of a shit if you rp or not.

For the most part RPers and PVErs honestly get along well in the grand scheme of things.

Just a few bad apples ruin the bunch in each side.

Ok so finally actually read the op and all I can say is that I have no idea what the hells going on.

If someone could explain it in twenty words or less to my simple mind that'd be uhhh, pretty damn great yeah.

(01-11-2016, 02:07 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-11-2016, 01:11 AM)Kage Wrote: [ -> ]Also your idea of PVEr vs RPer is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Most of shout is a trollfest shitstorm. Through all that, I raided through 2.55, beating T13 before it was unlocked into Duty Finder. For my early raiding, I raided with a great group of people in an RP FC (to T7). After that I raided almost exclusively with just PVE FCs and groups. None of them gave a shit's arse about RPers.

Yeah being a raider myself, and having an FC that allows non-RPers in it, I can honestly say the raiding community could give less of a shit if you rp or not.

If you are good we will use anyone. I do not understand why RP and PvE are seen as mutually exclusive by some RPers. I've never seen that attitude from PvE. It's not like people in my static laugh about RPers when they could be discussing more relevant things, like how to clear the stupid A4S dps check.

(01-11-2016, 02:17 AM)Aaron Wrote: [ -> ]Ok so finally actually read the op and all I can say is that I have no idea what the hells going on.

If someone could explain it in twenty words or less to my simple mind that'd be uhhh, pretty damn great yeah.

"I'm unhappy with the result I've been getting from RP lately, it's clearly everyone else's fault and they should change."

20 words, if you don't count contractions (or this part in italics).

(01-10-2016, 07:24 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-10-2016, 07:06 PM)McBeef© Wrote: [ -> ]Plz move thread to no mods land k thx.

Why does this thread need to go there?

Because the purpose of RP and this game is entertainment, and it would be a more genuine and interesting thread in no mods land.