Hydaelyn Role-Players

I personally play it that adventurers, as a whole, are already exceptional people who don't tend to follow the strictures of society. That means your miqo'te might have adopted an elezen-style name, or your highlander is a refined gentleman pansy (Hello Inspector Hildebrand!)

My character was raised in Limsa in more of a hyuran style, simply because her mother was a bit of a renegade, and had burnt her bridges with any tribe she had been part of a long time ago. But Izzy is developing an interest in her heritage, and will be investigating that (even if she's not really thrilled about the whole breeding arrangement. Hyuran values again).

As for half breeds... I figure with so many races interacting, and especially with so many in-game references to interspecies romance, cross-breeds DO happen. However... well, what happens when you breed a horse and a donkey together? You get a mule, which is sterile.

I figure, as harsh as it is, that this is the probably outcome of any interspecies pairing. The differences between the races are more significant than just human variation. Any kids they have will be difficult to conceive, have a higher rate of deformities and health issues, and most likely be sterile. Otherwise with all the hard work of the miqo'te in Ul'Dah, the city would be populated by nothing but miqohyuroegelefels.

That is just my assumption, of course.

(For the record, Izzy IS a hyur/miqo crossbreed. And she had a rough childhood because of it)

(07-07-2013, 09:55 AM)Azthran Wrote: [ -> ]This is also a fantasy setting and as much as I personally like to take a step back and look at it in a sort of grounded and 'realistic' view (Such as those shadey areas in the cities where questionable acts have most likely happened.) it still comes down to it being a fantasy setting so our real world genetics might not apply and for all we know the eatherite could also have some effect on things.
Just my 2 gil anyways.

We all need to remember that. Final Fantasy is not the real world, and doesn't work like the real world. It's a story. It's a fantasy reality.

Remember D&D? Half Elves, Half Orcs.. LOTR? Same thing, really.. they look just peachy fine to me. Health-wise and everything.

Let's not dig too deep into comparing our real world with different ones, shall we? Interbreeding isn't that big of a deal like it is IRL.

Races in fantasy worlds are more akin to human races IRL. Not different species. I know they seem more like different species from a grounded view. But again, this is a fantasy world. We aren't supposed to be completely grounded on it.

I promise you if SE made a character that is officially a half breed, he won't be an abomination baby.

(07-07-2013, 11:11 PM)Isilme Wrote: [ -> ]As for half breeds... I figure with so many races interacting, and especially with so many in-game references to interspecies romance, cross-breeds DO happen. However... well, what happens when you breed a horse and a donkey together? You get a mule, which is sterile.

I figure, as harsh as it is, that this is the probably outcome of any interspecies pairing. The differences between the races are more significant than just human variation. Any kids they have will be difficult to conceive, have a higher rate of deformities and health issues, and most likely be sterile. Otherwise with all the hard work of the miqo'te in Ul'Dah, the city would be populated by nothing but miqohyuroegelefels.

That is just my assumption, of course.

I'd buy that if not for many of the laws of nature in our world already being ignored in Eorzea already on this subject. XD Something else to consider would be that while the races look more like separate species to us, they're not called that. Different species that are close enough to cross-breed in real life cause what you described sometimes. However, in Eorzea we're described as races, not species. I couldn't tell you what Eorzea's "species" of sentients is, or if it's just a silly translation thing, but I don't think sterility and deformities are probably a problem. I think the only real issue would be from something like a Lalafell trying to carry a Hyur baby. I'd imagine that would not go well if it did happen. >>;;

And I already described why I think we don't see the "miqohyuroegelefels". General consensus seems to be that the babies will take the race of one or the other parent. x3

All opinions here, just discussing.~ There is always a point at which we must step back and say 'lol does it matter that much?' but sometimes it's just fun to discuss. xD

(07-07-2013, 11:33 PM)Aysun Wrote: [ -> ]Something else to consider would be that while the races look more like separate species to us, they're not called that. Different species that are close enough to cross-breed in real life cause what you described sometimes. However, in Eorzea we're described as races, not species. I couldn't tell you what Eorzea's "species" of sentients is, or if it's just a silly translation thing, but I don't think sterility and deformities are probably a problem. I think the only real issue would be from something like a Lalafell trying to carry a Hyur baby. I'd imagine that would not go well if it did happen. >>;;

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the races of Eorzea all come from a common ancestor, a la all of the humanoid species in Star Trek canon (humans, vulcans, etc). Lalafel are perhaps a very early divergence and far too genetically removed to even consider cross-breeding with the other races, but the others may be more close.

(07-07-2013, 11:38 PM)Naunet Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-07-2013, 11:33 PM)Aysun Wrote: [ -> ]Something else to consider would be that while the races look more like separate species to us, they're not called that. Different species that are close enough to cross-breed in real life cause what you described sometimes. However, in Eorzea we're described as races, not species. I couldn't tell you what Eorzea's "species" of sentients is, or if it's just a silly translation thing, but I don't think sterility and deformities are probably a problem. I think the only real issue would be from something like a Lalafell trying to carry a Hyur baby. I'd imagine that would not go well if it did happen. >>;;

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the races of Eorzea all come from a common ancestory, a la all of the humanoid species in Star Trek canon (humans, vulcans, etc). Lalafel are perhaps a very early divergence and far too genetically removed to even consider cross-breeding with the other races, but the others may be more close.

Do like!

(07-07-2013, 11:33 PM)Aysun Wrote: [ -> ]All opinions here, just discussing.~ There is always a point at which we must step back and say 'lol does it matter that much?' but sometimes it's just fun to discuss. xD

Natch, I'm never gonna blast someone for disagreeing, and I left the true source of Izzy's childhood issues vague specifically to avoid saying "Crossbreed babies are fuxxored". It doesn't really matter (Y'know, as long as it's in reason and you're not a half dragon, half fairy, half goddess half demon princess general warrior knight)

But it IS fun to say "Miqohyuroegelefels"

(07-07-2013, 11:38 PM)Naunet Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the races of Eorzea all come from a common ancestory, a la all of the humanoid species in Star Trek canon (humans, vulcans, etc). Lalafel are perhaps a very early divergence and far too genetically removed to even consider cross-breeding with the other races, but the others may be more close.

Honestly I find Miqo'te to be a much farther divergence. They have developed significantly different physiological features. Lalafell may be small and rotund. But they do not have extra limbs.

If you were to look at the skeletons of all the races, the Miqo'te one would have the most divergences in terms of skull shape (Given their much higher positioned ears) as well as the obvious tail.

Still, it's entirely possible they all share a common ancestry, it's just bizarre why Miqo'te would evolve those specific features, and not come with a penchant of other animalistic mammallian features.

This is why FFXI's lore was better in this regard lol. BAM everyone was created by deities. The End.

(07-08-2013, 12:02 AM)Shippuu Wrote: [ -> ]This is why FFXI's lore was better in this regard lol. BAM everyone was created by deities. The End.

Bleh, but that is SO boring. xD

(07-07-2013, 11:38 PM)Naunet Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-07-2013, 11:33 PM)Aysun Wrote: [ -> ]Something else to consider would be that while the races look more like separate species to us, they're not called that. Different species that are close enough to cross-breed in real life cause what you described sometimes. However, in Eorzea we're described as races, not species. I couldn't tell you what Eorzea's "species" of sentients is, or if it's just a silly translation thing, but I don't think sterility and deformities are probably a problem. I think the only real issue would be from something like a Lalafell trying to carry a Hyur baby. I'd imagine that would not go well if it did happen. >>;;

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the races of Eorzea all come from a common ancestor, a la all of the humanoid species in Star Trek canon (humans, vulcans, etc). Lalafel are perhaps a very early divergence and far too genetically removed to even consider cross-breeding with the other races, but the others may be more close.

I had considered what the base stock was if they all came from one species.  I dislike the term race tbh, I find it a little wishy washy.  Unfortunately the devs have said lala's can breed with the others.  I think we might need to for that genetics do work for say eye/hair colour but a certain unknown magic also plays a role.  Some things are rather difficult to explain and its not like we can actually study it properly.

(07-08-2013, 12:02 AM)Shippuu Wrote: [ -> ]This is why FFXI's lore was better in this regard lol. BAM everyone was created by deities. The End.

(07-07-2013, 11:38 PM)Naunet Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the races of Eorzea all come from a common ancestor, a la all of the humanoid species in Star Trek canon (humans, vulcans, etc). Lalafel are perhaps a very early divergence and far too genetically removed to even consider cross-breeding with the other races, but the others may be more close.

That, to me, is believable. Regardless of different features other races may have, we're talking the time span of many, MANY years. It could of happened. Also, divine influence, maybe? Could also be influence of magic. You really can't tell with fantasy worlds, which is why I am basically treating it like other fantasy worlds.

(07-08-2013, 05:09 AM)Khazeto Zhwan Wrote: [ -> ]I had considered what the base stock was if they all came from one species.  I dislike the term race tbh, I find it a little wishy washy.  Unfortunately the devs have said lala's can breed with the others.  I think we might need to for that genetics do work for say eye/hair colour but a certain unknown magic also plays a role.  Some things are rather difficult to explain and its not like we can actually study it properly.

I dislike it too. But it's become the standard.

I don't want to imagine a Lala breeding with... any other race. Don't worry, I have a rather deep chasm when it comes to what I can not be horrified with... but holy crap. The biology there is so crazily different that even the fantasy world aspect of it can't unclean my eyes.

If you were to ask me what the base race was, it was probably either a totally different race now extinct, or Hyur, or Elezen. Simply because Humans or Elves always seem to be there first.

But, yes. It is unable to be studied properly, and is difficult to explain. Best route is to say that it's possible to do with races that 'make sense'. Not the most logical answer, but the best to handle the situation at this point.

I don't like the idea of making presumptions about the lore at all. People here seem to be presuming that cross-breeding between the different races is possible and then putting restrictions on which races can cross-breed with which based on further presumptions.

None of this seems rooted in science. Just because a species has a common ancestor doesn't mean they can create offspring, and it never has. And it's difficult to say which of FFXIV's races are more "divergent" than others.

You just can't introduce rules to the lore that aren't there. If you're going to pretend that cross-breeding is okay, it's all or nothing. It's wrong to hate on Roegadyn/Lalafell half-breeds just because they aren't bending/breaking the lore as "realistically" as you are.

And to those saying it's just fantasy and we shouldn't be paying attention to real-world standards for cross-breeding, I think that stance is even more wrong. Both the person who is making up rules and the person who is making up rules based on real-world science are committing the same fallacy. The only difference is that the presumption of the person who uses science is at least able to be reasoned in a discussion about it.

Simply making up rules for convenience in the lore with absolutely no basis is very polarizing in a roleplay community where we're all agreeing to accept one canon so that our characters can exist and interact together without conflict. It's a social contract.

Until there is an official word on something that isn't covered in the lore, I believe a more polite stance to take is to just not do something that the lore doesn't cover. It's also a more reasonable stance, because the lore could change, and then you'll either have to stick to your guns or retcon months of roleplay.

I don't think making lore rules "by community consensus" is wise.



EDIT: So something that sorta bothered me in this thread was that nobody was citing sources for mixed clans or mixed races in the lore or from dev comments. Maybe it's common knowledge, but for someone like me who's still trying to learn about the lore, it sounds like heresay.

Luckily, some folks were already discussing the topic in this thread, and someone posted a really helpful source!

Quote:Can different races crossbreed? 


Answer: Yes, but it is rare...and often difficult due to cultural differences, etc. which is why you don't see it often. The lore team has informed me that there will be future quests/events that touch on this and other issues, such as love and marriage.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...post490835

There's no restrictions mentioned regarding which races can cross-breed (not even with regard to Lalafell, unfortunately), so it looks like open season on that idea. It's probably a trope that should be used sparingly, but it's certainly something to consider.

(07-08-2013, 11:07 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: [ -> ]Until there is an official word on something that isn't covered in the lore, I believe a more polite stance to take is to just not do something that the lore doesn't cover. It's also a more reasonable stance, because the lore could change, and then you'll either have to stick to your guns or retcon months of roleplay.

I don't think making lore rules "by community consensus" is wise.

I think this is far too restrictive, as the lore we have is hardly complete. It is perfectly okay to try and reasonably fill in the gaps with a little theorizing. That's not really an unusual thing in RP communities. I highly doubt Squeenix will ever provide lore on the evolutionary history of the species populating the planet, or its geology, or even much about its ecology. There are things that we as roleplayers should feel comfortable speculating on and creating micro-canons for. To tell people that they shouldn't try to fill in gaps means a lot of people may have to RP with gaps in their thought processes, and that's not fair at all.

Coming from TERA, where in order to RP properly, you need to more, uhm, cross vast chasms of nothingness rather than fill in a few gaps here and there, I know the value of people able to identify the particular rules a fantasy universe seems to be following and then extrapolating. All believable fictional universes follow consistent rules; if they don't, then they're not constructed properly. It's more than fair to take knowledge and apply it to something to fill a hole that may be missing.

I'm talking in rather general terms here, as this is a topic that goes well beyond the idea of half-breeds and bleeds into just about every corner of lore out there.

(07-08-2013, 01:18 PM)Naunet Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-08-2013, 11:07 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: [ -> ]Until there is an official word on something that isn't covered in the lore, I believe a more polite stance to take is to just not do something that the lore doesn't cover. It's also a more reasonable stance, because the lore could change, and then you'll either have to stick to your guns or retcon months of roleplay.

I don't think making lore rules "by community consensus" is wise.

I think this is far too restrictive, as the lore we have is hardly complete. It is perfectly okay to try and reasonably fill in the gaps with a little theorizing. That's not really an unusual thing in RP communities. I highly doubt Squeenix will ever provide lore on the evolutionary history of the species populating the planet, or its geology, or even much about its ecology. There are things that we as roleplayers should feel comfortable speculating on and creating micro-canons for. To tell people that they shouldn't try to fill in gaps means a lot of people may have to RP with gaps in their thought processes, and that's not fair at all.

Coming from TERA, where in order to RP properly, you need to more, uhm, cross vast chasms of nothingness rather than fill in a few gaps here and there, I know the value of people able to identify the particular rules a fantasy universe seems to be following and then extrapolating. All believable fictional universes follow consistent rules; if they don't, then they're not constructed properly. It's more than fair to take knowledge and apply it to something to fill a hole that may be missing.

I'm talking in rather general terms here, as this is a topic that goes well beyond the idea of half-breeds and bleeds into just about every corner of lore out there.

You have those things that you make up for your own lore and roleplay that don't influence the world or immersion of other people, such as originating from an isolated tribe, or knowing of an obscure plant or myth, or hailing from an isolated island, or countless other similar examples.

Then you have those things that force people to accept your "take" on the lore in order to be able to roleplay with you, such as being a mixed race, or countless other similar examples.

There are certain things which are respectful to take liberties on, and certain things that can alienate people. And coming up with continuity via community consensus still serves to isolate members of the roleplay community, potentially. It's not about being restrictive, but about being courteous.

And if you're going to make up a rule, such as allowing mixed races, it's even more discourteous to enforce caveats on that rule, such as "no Lalafell/Roegadyn pairs because it doesn't make sense."

This isn't our world to make up the rules of. And if we are to make up rules for our sake, we have to be courteous of people who also make up similar rules, because you have no more authority to tell them that they are wrong than I have to tell you that you are wrong.

I don't believe an evolutionary history is even necessary in order to justify any of this stuff. If you're going to fill in gaps in the lore, it's best to make things as uncomplicated as possible, especially in the event that the writers of the game contradict your decisions with added content in the future.

Anyway, the subject of mixed races and clans is moot, because like I posted before, both of these are confirmed to exist in the lore, with little restriction at all. So you can have Seeker/Keeper mixes and even half-Miqo'tes, within reason.

(07-08-2013, 01:42 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: [ -> ]If you're going to fill in gaps in the lore, it's best to make things as uncomplicated as possible, especially in the event that the writers of the game contradict your decisions with added content in the future.

This right here. There is a direct correlation between how complex your additions to the lore are and how many questions demand answering to satisfy that complexity. Each answer you provide increases the chance that you will later on be contradicted.

When filling in the gaps keep it simple. It'll save yourself, and everyone, a lot of headaches and spare us all the frustration of having to agree on unnecessary consensus. Consider also that we don't have to have all the answers for how things are the way they are in the setting.

I can't speak for others but I wasn't discussing this with any aim to enforce a certain set of rules on others.  When I play in a game I like to explore these facets of a game, if it comes to light with some official answers than I will be forced to change and thats hunky dory with with me.  Again its about having a nice discussion and postulating lots of ideas into a big pot rather than THIS IS THE ONLY WAY mentality.  Again I can't speak for others but I don't think that's what this thread has been about.