Hydaelyn Role-Players

So, I didn't read the whole thread because there's a lot in there... but I'll just leave my opinion here.

First thing is... the whole I Am The One is straight out. It's arrogant and disrespectful, among hundreds of RPers, to say "I'm the one, I'm the hero, you guys are supporting cast for My story." Good way to alienate a community.
Of course, one can do it privately with a few friends, pretending to be The Hero Party (the one we've seen in the videos) but that's not something to share with the whole community.
I think everyone agrees on this.

However, I tend to view my character's progression in the game, as an indicator of their IC progression, in some ways. Take my character Jeanette, for example. She started our as a thaumaturge and a weaver apprentice, but as reached a point where she mingles with a higher class of Ul'dan citizens (good for business!). This mirrors the fact that in-game I've been through... the level 15 story quest and events. You'll never hear say she's done those things... but for me it mirrors her IC rise in society through her actions... without going into specifics.

So instead of saying things like "I single-handedly saved that village" (something that happens in game.. to everyone... through story quests) you can say "I was instrumental in saving that caravan" (something that doesn't happen in-game and can happen a lot more than once).

Not only does this not rob others of having their own heroic deeds, it also follows a certain sense of accomplishment that more or less fits the in-game progression, which I kinda like (I'm not one to play a purely non-adventurer type in a RPG).

Lastly, think of large-scale events like the Battle of Carteneau. That was a LOT of people in there. Enough for every Legacy character to say "I was there". If they'd remember, that is! But anything that would mobilize a whole Grand Company or something, I think it's fair for a character to say "I was there, I participated in this" as long is it doesn't go into the realms of "I killed the big evil."

(08-30-2013, 06:35 PM)Clover Wrote: [ -> ]I'm personally not imagining that the main storyline is actually happening to my character. As you commented, that'd be chaotic.

Regarding the primals, it'd be very cool if someone ever organized an event in which an army of RPed characters have to actually fight one. We don't need the game story, we can make our own and play it our way!

I have gotten into the habit of not seeing my characters as part of the main storyline in games.  maybe spatters of it.  Because, I mean, if that's the case there are thousands of people going though the same thing.  That's what bothers me with main stories saying you are a "chosen one" or "special" ... like so many other people.

So I have a basic slate and just build it up from there.  Boring I know 

As for the primals, I can totally see a group hearing rumors of one and seeing if it is true.

(08-31-2013, 10:26 AM)Magellan Wrote: [ -> ]@ Clover: while your idea would be awesome, FC's and LS's can barely agree on storylines to run, let alone entire communities. People simply desire far too much different things from their RP for something so large scale to work. However, 2-3 guilds can, with organization, create a pretty meaningful storyline for them. But to try and force a server-wide RP isn't fair for those who don't want that particular RP in their storyline.

But, couldn't anything be organized in this community? This is the point where all RPers meet, and the place for events to be organized, after all. Couldn't this community serve as a chronicle of what's happening in the world? (What's happening in the world = the story we the RPers create).
 
Maybe I'm being naive, but I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to live in a world where things are actually happening, no matter how far or close they are from our characters. The lore itself really stops after the calamity; it'd be sad if that were the only real event all characters can share and react to, an event from the past.

I think it's fine to weave it into your storyline if you're smart about it. For instance the assault on Castrum Novum. Instead of being in the infiltration party that fought Nael Van Darnus, you were one of the hundreds of Grand Company soliders who took part in the diversion. That's perfectly fine and plausible.

I agree with most posts here about the thing with "a nameless hero" having saved the day, but then again that nameless hero is pretty popular, meaning that your character while walking down the streets of Ul'dah might just hear a merchant talk about how "  " saved him and his goodies. That'd make things awkward, or I might just be overthinking it.

On the subject of Echo, primals and wars:
-How in the bloody hell did the Immortal Flame manage to take down Ifrit multiple times (with many sacrifices yes) without having their whole army tempered as soon as they were in front of the beast? I mean, Ifrit could just transform them all into mindless slave. What did they do to avoid being tempered?

-What about characters without Echo, how would they be supposed to fight a Primal, if an RP event like that ever happened? My (somewhat corrupted) character doesn't have the echo, if she ever met a primal then it's game over. Unless there's a god that can temper you without taking your brain, or I'll have to come up with a ridiculous backstory such as "Oh yeah she already died once and dead people can't be tempered!", I don't really want that lol.

(08-31-2013, 05:00 PM)Clover Wrote: [ -> ]But, couldn't anything be organized in this community? This is the point where all RPers meet, and the place for events to be organized, after all. Couldn't this community serve as a chronicle of what's happening in the world? (What's happening in the world = the story we the RPers create).
 
Maybe I'm being naive, but I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to live in a world where things are actually happening, no matter how far or close they are from our characters. The lore itself really stops after the calamity; it'd be sad if that were the only real event all characters can share and react to, an event from the past.

I think there's a lot of value in chronicling the storylines we create as players. There's also a place for alliances between FCs/LSs to create large storylines that affect multiple people. The events of those can show up here in Tonberry's Lantern, for instance, and people can react to them (or not) as they like.

However, trying to advance the storyline as set forth by SE is problematic, as not every RPer comes to this site, and no RPer has any real authority over any other. If the RPC had a big storyline about Ifrit being summoned and defeated, you'd have some people who'd participate, some who'd be left out due to RL reasons who'd be unhappy that they couldn't do something their characters would do, some who would refuse to participate on principle at it's the RPC asserting authority over other players and lore (by declaring that Ifrit is now dead in its canon), some who would refuse to participate due to OOC drama, some who would refuse to participate because you almost have to make some subset of players the "heroes" and they'd be displeased about who those people were, some who would refuse to participate because of lore reasons, and a large number of people who would say, "What the heck's the RPC and who are they to say Ifrit has been defeated?"

And on to something completely different...

(08-31-2013, 05:53 PM)Boo Wrote: [ -> ]-How in the bloody hell did the Immortal Flame manage to take down Ifrit multiple times (with many sacrifices yes) without having their whole army tempered as soon as they were in front of the beast? I mean, Ifrit could just transform them all into mindless slave. What did they do to avoid being tempered?

Tempering appears to require some effort on the part of the Primal, so it may or may not be able to be done in the middle of a large pitched battle without rendering him vulnerable to some of his attackers. Also, some members may have the Echo (especially PC adventurers ), may have been Tempered by other Primals, or perhaps aware of the process, the Flames sent their people in in waves to keep Ifrit from doing it to too many at once; we certainly only see it being used on a small group of people who've been captured. Also, someone else on the thread mentioned that this very issue comes up in the main scenario quest (I assume after the Ifrit arc), so it might be explained there.

(08-31-2013, 05:53 PM)Boo Wrote: [ -> ]-What about characters without Echo, how would they be supposed to fight a Primal, if an RP event like that ever happened? My (somewhat corrupted) character doesn't have the echo, if she ever met a primal then it's game over. Unless there's a god that can temper you without taking your brain, or I'll have to come up with a ridiculous backstory such as "Oh yeah she already died once and dead people can't be tempered!", I don't really want that lol.

Short answer: they can't RP that while maintaining an internally consistent storyline if they have no other explanation. The choices we make about our characters impact what they can do ICly.

Long answer: The Echo is all kinds of mysterious. Even those who've had it for some time don't fully understand it, and it seems largely outside of a PC's control. Beyond, say, engaging a Primal in a large military action (which would exclude ICly participating in the small group fights of the game), you could come up with other reasons. Perhaps your character is simply immune to being Tempered and no one knows why, not even her -- maybe it's the Echo, maybe it's not. Your character certainly hasn't seen in anyone's memories, yet, though, or gained the ability to understand other tongues. That's probably the most lore-friendly approach. More of a stretch would be coming up with some sort of spell or alchemical preparation that makes you immune to it for a time, but somehow can't be shared with others or replicated, or having your character actually be Tempered to a different Primal and no one knows (though this would have major IC consequences if it came up -- ICA = ICC and all that).

Somethings in the story we're using in our FC/characters and some things we're disregarding, which I think everyone in some way is doing.

Most of the people in my guild decided they were at the battle of Carteneau and skipped ahead five years, including my two characters and that's totally fine! It worked out since no one is running around going "We're warriors of light! Pat attention!" in fact, most of them don't seem to want to mention it at all. So that kind of thing we can make work. We're also planning on doing Primal fights ICly. Once the Night Blades gets "strong enough" and we get into our Primal story arch, we're planning on being a group who takes them down. Not "THE" group, just "A" group, since the primals are consistently appearing now. If it was said the primals only appear once and some hero defeated them, we would ignore it all together. But since its canon that they keep reappearing, and our whole concept is power, it seemed like a natural fit.

I know of one person in my guild who has "The Echo" ICly, everyone else is ignoring it and just saying they never had it. I think having the Echo ICly is fine, since it doesn't contradict lore in any way, but people should be careful with using some of the Echo's powers while in character, it could be seen as god-modding/meta-gaming.

The rest... saying your the hero of the story is touchy business.

For instance... I ran an RP shell on Quetzalcoatl in FFXI and we followed the game storyline to the letter. We would set up events around the missions, do the missions as a guild, then RP them as part of our timeline. Once the first group beat the mission, any group after them was OOC - it only counted with the first group. This worked, in a way, because we were the only RPLS on the server. We could pretty much do whatever we wanted. No one was there to argue with us.
Then another shell ended up forming on the server, who we knew about and RPed with. A lot of problems happened because, according to them, the story missions hadn't even happened yet, and the Shadowlord was still alive. It became almost impossible to RP with the other group because our timelines never matched up and our heroes were different. When they finally were able to beat the Shadowlord, I was there with them to help and they had to call me a "Nameless Redmage" in their timeline because according to MY timeline the Shadowlord was already dead and it was confusing and blleeeehhhh. It really only works if you plan on never really interacting with the community as a whole.

We plan on doing raids and things ICly (Once we have them on farm) but they will never be big important things. For instance, the Bahamut fight will just turn into a large Dragon in our story, so we can leave some hero off over there to beat the actual Bahamut.

(08-30-2013, 08:26 PM)Moondoggie Wrote: [ -> ]Killed by very large forces at least from what i gather and not easily. Having everyone and his Mother having done battle with and defeated primals it just gets silly XD

Now adding backstory element that my Lala's mother defeated Garuda with naught but a rolling pin when the primal interrupted her making pie crusts. >.>


(just kidding of course)

Now, do not lapidate me please, but I will say it :

This is something that World of Warcraft did exceptionnally well. Your characters were in the main storyline, but as a support cast to the main characters of Azeroth. So you never were in the spotlight alone.

That is how I roleplay in FF14, If I see and fight a primal, I prefer to think that it was with a huge group of adventurer, in support of the main characters, doing something relatively minor like creating a diversion for the minions of the said primal.

Anyhow, as of now, I am still pretending in game that the storyline does not exist. Also, I imagine primal being way too strong to be killed by 4 adventurers. I mean, Bahamut ripped Hydaelin apart.....

Remember that the power a Primal has is directly proportional with how many aether they have 'eaten' (how many crystals were used in their summoning, basically). Also, different Primals have different powers: Bahamut ripped the world apart because he's the most powerful one, probably related to being the Primal of dragons. The other Primals have their own gimmicks (like Ramuh being extremely territorial), but their raw power is different from each other.

To echo Ildur's point, a Primal is very different from, say, the Lich King. Without getting too spoilery, think of a Primal as a summoned monster. If the summoner is extremely powerful, then the summon will be; if the summoner is weak, the primal will be comparatively weak. So, when you fight, say, Ifrit, you're really fighting an instance of Ifrit -- an avatar of Ifrit, one might say -- with a variable power level based on the circumstances of the summoning.


I, at least, haven't gotten far enough in the main scenario quest to know why (if it's disclosed at all) Bahamut is so powerful when released from Dalamud, but I have some theories.

I don't think its unfair of me to say that anyone who is the self-proclaimed protagonist of the story is being very unreasonable and that they cannot expect to be taken seriously by other RPers. If you want to RP in a small group of your own then that is fine, but do not expect others (or me) to cater and adjust to what I know or think has happened just to suit every little snowflake version of particular events. True, not everyone can be catered to and there will be some exclusion but that will always be the case with RP scenarios.

We have a rather large community here. Surely a significant portion of us are open to the idea of following some significant chronicle of events, something that is consistent and that we can all play a part in to varying degrees? What I would like to see is something that was suggested before in another topic, a party of "heroes" that play an important role SIMILAR to that of the main story. They should not be Gods or capable of great things all on their lonesome. They should just be the ones credited to having significant participation in battle, leaderships and/or judgements and can influence the world's(that is everyone who agrees) populace. In addition to that, we could have "masters" and expert roleplayers of varying styles helping to form the foundation of everything that happens and keeping it all framed and tidy to ensure consistency just as Clover had suggested.


Now, even if people were to agree to this idea, I personally feel that I'd want specific types of people to play the important roles. This is not a matter of "Sorry, you're not a good enough rp'er" or anything, but rather something that is believable and fitting to the role they are supposed to handle. I'd hate, for instance, to see someone acting like slaying four or five people/beasts is as easy as breathing and loves to do crazy mad flips through the air and slicing & dicing everything in sight before their enemies have a chance to react. So with that, it'd be nice if we all had a vote on the candidates for certain roles. Not everyone should be nice or perfect or the pinnacle of perfection when it comes to fighting. Strengths could lie anywhere, I would just like something believable and people that I can honestly incorporate into my own roleplay even if I never meet them. That's just one term I think everyone who is open to this idea can agree on. It wouldn't be a vote on quality of RP, just a judgement on the potential your existing character would provide to such roles with everything taken into consideration.


Well anyways, that's all just my input, sorry if any of it sounds ridiculous.

I don't anyone's advocating taking the entire story of the MSQ as written as canon for their characters. Some parts of the story (though thankfully not as many as in other games) very clearly need to be genericized, because otherwise, you'd definitely be stepping on other players' toes.

(09-01-2013, 01:57 PM)Knahli Wrote: [ -> ]We have a rather large community here. Surely a significant portion of us are open to the idea of following some significant chronicle of events, something that is consistent and that we can all play a part in to varying degrees? What I would like to see is something that was suggested before in another topic, a party of "heroes" that play an important role SIMILAR to that of the main story. They should not be Gods or capable of great things all on their lonesome. They should just be the ones credited to having significant participation in battle, leaderships and/or judgements and can influence the world's(that is everyone who agrees) populace. In addition to that, we could have "masters" and expert roleplayers of varying styles helping to form the foundation of everything that happens and keeping it all framed and tidy to ensure consistency just as Clover had suggested.

The problem is that this is a drama bomb of epic proportions waiting to happen. It's essentially a group of players saying, "Hey, this canonical event? You can't have any role other than an extra in it, because these PCs we appointed have those starring roles." It's the same thing as saying your character is the Chosen Protagonist of the story, except it's a group of players anointing some of their own to be the Chosen Protagonists. That's very much stepping on other players' RP; just because a group of people does it doesn't mean it's fair play. It's especially bad if a significant proportion of the RPC does it, because nothing screams "elitist clique" faster than telling other RPers that an anointed set of characters (who will, being chosen by vote, inevitably be the most popular and well-liked characters, or the characters of the most popular and well-liked players) have key roles in what will invariably be viewed as "the RPC's Secret Cabal of RP Masters' fanon" -- no matter how much people claim otherwise.

Now, sure, you can do it in an LS or FC -- and some very successful guilds in a variety of games have done this -- but the end result is that the RP of the group becomes incompatible with other players, since they won't recognize the group's authority to dictate who did what in the game's storyline (nor should they be expected to). That means that any time these events come up in RP, the two sides are going to have an OOC disagreement that can only be solved ICly by both sides RPing that the other's lost a few marbles. You can also solve it OOC by simply not RPing it with other players, but that inevitably leads to insular RP (why RP with people who don't recognize your story?).

Ultimately, the problem isn't the power level of these characters -- in fact, the issue of the average power level of a PC is quite different from the story implications of taking quests IC at face value (you can be a high power character without being a special snowflake and vice-versa). The problem is that it's a group of players telling another group of players which characters get to play key roles in a story that none of us created; ultimately, it's SE's story. No player has the authority to do that, and attempting to assert it will always cause OOC snarls.

I think the best solution is the most common one: the big events in the storyline -- the ones that only one PC or a small group of PCs can undertake -- remain always in the hands of generic NPC heroes. Events that every PC can do (taking down Primals, having the Echo, participating in Carteneau) are things that you can say your character did. Everything in between is a judgment call, with my judgment personally falling down on the side of "make it generic if there's any question about it clobbering others' RP."

EDIT: Aaand all of that being taken into consideration, if we're just talking about player-created stories, the exact same issues exist, with the added complication that getting LS and FC leaders to agree on anything can be quite challenging. For player-created stories, the best way to handle them is to keep them at a plausible level that doesn't stomp on anyone else's RP (no saving the world from Bahamut, please), and weave them together with a system like the Tonberry's Lantern. By simply letting other groups know what you're doing, they can weave it into their stories and RP. Offering an RP opportunity is much better than attempting to enforce an fanon.

At least I hope people will organize epic stories about imaginary monsters or confrontations against the Garlean empire. Those wouldn't step on anyone's RP, I think, and many players could participate. I'd personally love that ;w; *eager to participate in any plot*.

(09-01-2013, 02:26 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: [ -> ]The problem is that this is a drama bomb of epic proportions waiting to happen. It's essentially a group of players saying, "Hey, this canonical event? You can't have any role other than an extra in it, because these PCs we appointed have those starring roles." It's the same thing as saying your character is the Chosen Protagonist of the story, except it's a group of players anointing some of their own to be the Chosen Protagonists. That's very much stepping on other players' RP; just because a group of people does it doesn't mean it's fair play.

But this only affects people that WANT to be the protagonist. Just assuming and playing by such standards is already potentially stepping on the RP of every single person they meet who may have played to a different chronicle whereas if we can all gather together to unify under a single set of leaders(and leaders can change and die and be promoted/demoted/move etc) we are promoting more consistency and inclusion to as many people as possible and having influence on their stories both directly and indirectly.

Quote:FreelanceWizard
It's especially bad if a significant proportion of the RPC does it, because nothing screams "elitist clique" faster than telling other RPers that an anointed set of characters (who will, being chosen by vote, inevitably be the most popular and well-liked characters, or the characters of the most popular and well-liked players) have key roles in what will invariably be viewed as "the RPC's Secret Cabal of RP Masters' fanon" -- no matter how much people claim otherwise.

I'm sure most of us can rise above this though. No-one wants god modders or ultimate players who can dictate everything we do or do not do. Our characters have free will and I only suggested such "elite" players to play leadership roles or perhaps suit in to meld with any future lore that cannot be attributed to many people and where a "scapegoat" for lack of a better word is needed.

The fact of the matter is that some people need to play the leadership role, someone that members of grand companies or volunteering adventurers/mercenaries can look to otherwise everything will be in disarray and everyone will assume responsibility and cause IC or OOC arguments. Not the good kind I might add. Disarray is nice but it can't be there all of the time because no-one is a leader on the battlefield or elsewhere.

Quote:FreelanceWizard
EDIT: Aaand all of that being taken into consideration, if we're just talking about player-created stories, the exact same issues exist, with the added complication that getting LS and FC leaders to agree on anything can be quite challenging. For player-created stories, the best way to handle them is to keep them at a plausible level that doesn't stomp on anyone else's RP (no saving the world from Bahamut, please), and weave them together with a system like the Tonberry's Lantern. By simply letting other groups know what you're doing, they can weave it into their stories and RP. Offering an RP opportunity is much better than attempting to enforce an fanon.

While this is probably the safest option I'd still like to know what everyone else thinks. Unless many people can come here and give valid reasons why this would interfere with their RP styles or stories personally then I think we should remain open to the possibility of having a more managed and sophisticated setup. Sure it might take a little work, but imagine how amazing it would be to have an absolute structure where everyone played a role to varying degrees.

No-one would dictate who does what, every positioned is volunteered to and voted on by us.

? ^^