Hydaelyn Role-Players

While I am not RPing at the moment (waiting for vial of fantasia to change to my rp char), I am using a somewhat revised version of events in order to allow me to rp within the context of the events that happen in the story. For instance, my character was involved with a large scale effort to take down Ifrit which included dozens, if not nearly a hundred adventurers as opposed to having personally taken him down. I'm also running with Hydaelyn protecting certain adventurers from tempering so I have some excuse as to why I wasn't turned during the conflict.

I apologize for the inline quoting...

(09-01-2013, 02:51 PM)Knahli Wrote: [ -> ]But this only affects people that WANT to be the protagonist. Just assuming and playing by such standards is already potentially stepping on the RP of every single person they meet who may have played to a different chronicle whereas if we can all gather together to unify under a single set of leaders(and leaders can change and die and be promoted/demoted/move etc) we are promoting more consistency and inclusion to as many people as possible and having influence on their stories both directly and indirectly.

Personally, I would rather not have some person who, by virtue of being a popular character, now has authority over mine IC because a vote said so. I would also prefer not to have a person be able to say, "I'm the only one who can beat Ifrit!" because a vote said so. Under what authority do these players have this power?

More importantly, this is not inclusive -- it's by definition exclusionary. Anyone who doesn't hew to these votes loses the ability to RP with that portion of the community. Anyone who doesn't want to accede to that authority to dictate storyline loses access to RP. Conversely, offering story threads to people in a central location is inclusionary, as it allows people to decide whether they want to participate or not as they see fit.

(09-01-2013, 02:51 PM)Knahli Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure most of us can rise above this though. No-one wants god modders or ultimate players who can dictate everything we do or do not do. Our characters have free will and I only suggested such "elite" players to play leadership roles or perhaps suit in to meld with any future lore that cannot be attributed to many people and where a "scapegoat" for lack of a better word is needed.

But it has nothing to do with godmoding (although I'd argue that attempting to enforce a fanon storyline is in a way a form of godmoding, but that's another discussion altogether). It has everything to do with the lack of authority of players to tell other players what the "fanon" story is, and the lack of authority of them to control any form of overarching plot.

(09-01-2013, 02:51 PM)Knahli Wrote: [ -> ]The fact of the matter is that some people need to play the leadership role, someone that members of grand companies or volunteering adventurers/mercenaries can look to otherwise everything will be in disarray and everyone will assume responsibility and cause IC or OOC arguments. Not the good kind I might add. Disarray is nice but it can't be there all of the time because no-one is a leader on the battlefield or elsewhere.

This is only necessary if you want this sort of overarching plot. I don't, because it's inconsiderate to me, to new players, to players not in the RPC, to players not present for the vote, to players who aren't the "popular kids" and unlikely to be voted into one of these positions, and to the devs, whose story is now marginalized in favor of a player-created construct.

These are the exact same issues you have with player-run towns, for example... and those often end for the same reasons.

(09-01-2013, 02:51 PM)Knahli Wrote: [ -> ]While this is probably the safest option I'd still like to know what everyone else thinks. Unless many people can come here and give valid reasons why this would interfere with their RP styles or stories personally then I think we should remain open to the possibility of having a more managed and sophisticated setup. Sure it might take a little work, but imagine how amazing it would be to have an absolute structure where everyone played a role to varying degrees.

No-one would dictate who does what, every positioned is volunteered to and voted on by us.

Oh, of course! I'm not meaning to shut down discussion -- I sure don't have any authority to do that. I've just seen these sorts of things implode (repeatedly!) in the past, and so I'm sharing my concerns and opinions forged over, well, quite a few times of seeing these exclude, marginalize, and defeat players -- and in the meantime, ignite a drama fireball between those who want this sort of authority and those who refuse to recognize it.

Ultimately, I look at it from the other side. Imagine you're a new player and you come into the game. You start RPing and you find out that Kylin (no offense to him, he's just a well-known name ) rules Ul'dah as it's Minister of Coin, and you can't ICly fight Primals because the Blades of Nald'thal already killed them all. You can't take any form of IC leadership because all the positions were already voted in. You can't do content IC because it's all already been done. How do you RP a great warrior? How this inclusive to you or your concept? You can't vote on it because all the votes were already done. Let's say a new vote comes up. You pitch your concept, and it's good, but because you're a new player, no one wants to vote for you. Instead, they'd rather vote for Ashren Snow (and, no offense intended, he's just a well-known name ), because he's a known quantity in the community and they just like him better. How is this fair?

So, I see it as amazing -- for those who are in power of it! Those who aren't are marginalized and excluded, and it's being done on a grand scale. If an FC or LS wants to do this in their own internal plot, that's fine: no one else has to recognize it, and if I don't like it, I can always leave that group. If the community as a whole does it, though, my only option is to leave the server or the game entirely. I can't support an idea like that.

I wish you'd tell me how to quote like you just did TwT

Quote:Ultimately, I look at it from the other side. Imagine you're a new player and you come into the game. You start RPing and you find out that Kylin (no offense to him, he's just a well-known name ) rules Ul'dah as it's Minister of Coin, and you can't ICly fight Primals because the Blades of Nald'thal already killed them all. You can't take any form of IC leadership because all the positions were already voted in. You can't do content IC because it's all already been done. How do you RP a great warrior? How this inclusive to you or your concept? You can't vote on it because all the votes were already done. Let's say a new vote comes up. You pitch your concept, and it's good, but because you're a new player, no one wants to vote for you. Instead, they'd rather vote for Ashren Snow (and, no offense intended, he's just a well-known name ), because he's a known quantity in the community and they just like him better. How is this fair?

So, I see it as amazing -- for those who are in power of it! Those who aren't are marginalized and excluded, and it's being done on a grand scale. If an FC or LS wants to do this in their own internal plot, that's fine: no one else has to recognize it, and if I don't like it, I can always leave that group. If the community as a whole does it, though, my only option is to leave the server or the game entirely. I can't support an idea like that.

I suppose that is a rather compelling argument. My inexperience is perhaps leading me to underestimate the amount of people that actually yearn for a position of importance and power. However, even with your less restrictive idea, that still prevents people from RP'ing previous timelines with players who have already ran through it. So mostly your concerns fall down to positions of power, aspects which I think are worth a little research at least to see how much interest there is in particular areas and how much influence such players have on each other. You do seem to be comprehending it as though I am implying the the leaders have full control over everything you do and such but rather I mean to place them as a guide. We'd need to be very careful with planning it of course but there could be a reasonable way of handling it given a little thought if the interest was there.

If you're part of a Grand Company then you must expect to follow orders from a superior though, right? Likewise, if you're a randomer then you have no allegiances to strictly adhere to so even if you disagree then you can just ignore it and move along if you so choose.

I'm a little tired now so can't explain myself as well as I could but I hope the idea isn't too fairytale-ish ^^;;

(09-01-2013, 04:30 PM)Knahli Wrote: [ -> ]I wish you'd tell me how to quote like you just did TwT

When you reply with the quote, just put a /quote in brackets after each section and a quote in brackets before the next section. That creates those individualized quotes, between which you can put your comments. Just be sure to preview the post before you do it so you can be sure it's right.

Quote:However, even with your less restrictive idea, that still prevents people from RP'ing previous timelines with players who have already ran through it.

The solution to that is to not have an actual piece of the main storyline as part of your micro-canon. The game might force a certain line of events when you play through content, but there are ways in which you can handwave, reinterpret or ultimately completely change it for roleplaying purposes.
For example, let's consider the Sastasha dungeon. You can easily ignore the in-game information and simply have an IC run of it as if it was just one of many pirate hideouts. If you run the dungeon IC and also using the storyline proposed by the game then you are effectively, as you say, preventing other people from doing that content as far as your micro-canon is concerned.
If you transform the content into a 'generic' version, however, you don't. You can in fact run Sastasha in-character as many times as you want because, as far as your micro-canon is concerned, you are raiding pirate hideouts that are unrelated to the game's storyline.

Quote: You do seem to be comprehending it as though I am implying the the leaders have full control over everything you do and such but rather I mean to place them as a guide.

If you don't give them authority, then we cannot call them leaders at all. If you give them authority, they are not simple guides anymore since they will have the power, implicit or explicit, direct or indirect, to decide on matters of what is 'canonicaly' correct for the community or for a subset of players. For example, someone who 'canonicaly' (as decided by the RPC) is the highest officer of the Immoral Flames below Rhaubaun: he has power over everyone inferior in ranks to him. The only way for characters to ignore his orders in-character is to imply that someone who is 'higher' than him ordered him otherwise. Except the only one higher than him is an NPC who cannot be spoken to without trampling on everyone else's toes.

This positions of power only work well in guilds/free companies/linkshells, because people implicitly place theirselves under the leadership by joining.
It can also work in community driven events when the position of leadership is temporal, a consequence of the event and when obedience is optional.
None of that is true if you appoint players or characters as the higher-ups of canonical organizations.

A good rule of thumb is to very rarely if ever include the main storyline into your character. There were a few characters in GW2 who said they killed the dragon, but the NPCs around town indicate that the dragon was alive and well as did many characters. This just creates a headache environment as people try to find a reason for their characters to stand out of the crowd.

In regards to FFXIV, I am okay with people fighting the Primals. During the storyline, the cs when you are listening to the GC's giving their speech, Raubahn or the children, I forget, say that the Immortal Flames have gone out many times and defeated Ifrit, but their resources and numbers will just continue to decrease. They also state that the summoning of the Primals is happening at a much faster rate. If a character wants to say he was in a party that quelled one of the primals, I will play along with it, but they better have a damn good battle story to tell me . As long as they are not saying that they killed or defeated a major plot character, such as the main Garlean baddie from 1.0 or saying they are a part of the Scion (which is an extremely small organization).

I don't know if I'm overstepping my bounds as it being only my second post (first if you exclude my intro,) but I like to think of the Main story as kind of a...rumor, if you will.

Sort of like a "What has happened," instead of a "What will happen."  After all, while every character is unique, at the same point it has to be kind of another faceless mask within the crowd or else we have a bunch of outrageous stories in the taverns exclaiming how we killed a Primal, while someone in another tavern talks about how they killed the Primal.  With it being a rumor, then anybody can recite the story, and it can even become a staple within a bard's repertoire of stories of the heroes of the past.

Kind of like that, you can leave the Hero/Ine, to the imagination of the player.  They can places themselves as the hero they want to be, but at the same time they can keep their head level to where it's a famous story of someone like him/her that had done these exciting things.

Seeing that many parts of the story is focused on large events that center around a single character instead an overarching group effort, I would rp the main story as the heroes are NPCs and rumors. Grand Companies can be RP'd at least as it involves the whole of the community if they wish for a military backing.

(08-31-2013, 04:38 AM)Taeh Marchand Wrote: [ -> ]I think my approach is a bit different to most other people, that doesn't mean I think my approach is better or that anyone else's is worse.  I'm just different.

I choose to actively roleplay through the main story because I like to stay in-character as much as possible and basically I enjoy thinking that my character is the 'hero' of the game.  However, as has rightly been pointed out, this could put my character at odds with other characters at different points in the main story.

Therefore I consider this my personal roleplay journey.  I don't assume that anything my character knows or has accomplished as part of the main story would also be part of another character's roleplay world.  Yes this does make it a bit tricky at times but I let myself be guided by the characters I'm interacting with at the time.

I do this as well actually. I have "two" versions of my character. 
I have a story-canon version which I rp with my significant other which is strictly game, and I have a non-canon version which I omit certain things. It does make it tricky but it is easy to remove certain things which would not make sense at a larger story with others.

(09-01-2013, 09:00 PM)LandStander Wrote: [ -> ]A good rule of thumb is to very rarely if ever include the main storyline into your character. There were a few characters in GW2 who said they killed the dragon, but the NPCs around town indicate that the dragon was alive and well as did many characters. This just creates a headache environment as people try to find a reason for their characters to stand out of the crowd.

In regards to FFXIV, I am okay with people fighting the Primals. During the storyline, the cs when you are listening to the GC's giving their speech, Raubahn or the children, I forget, say that the Immortal Flames have gone out many times and defeated Ifrit, but their resources and numbers will just continue to decrease. They also state that the summoning of the Primals is happening at a much faster rate. If a character wants to say he was in a party that quelled one of the primals, I will play along with it, but they better have a damn good battle story to tell me . As long as they are not saying that they killed or defeated a major plot character, such as the main Garlean baddie from 1.0 or saying they are a part of the Scion (which is an extremely small organization).

While the core of the Scions is small, I seemed to think it was implied that they're basically collecting all the people with Echos since they mention others aside from their leader and the hero of the story. Momodi also seems to think they're moving in earnest... as in recruiting loads of capable adventurers to their cause. So while they may have been small originally, that could be changing.

So, yeah, I wouldn't complain about that so much as someone actually mentioning they're part of it since it's supposed to be a secret organization of sorts.

I barely even pay attention to the main story, but after reading your post, you've giving me a bit to think about.

I don't know if any of my characters would accept affiliation with "the Waking Sands" as easily since for one, it may apply a lot of pressure. I'm sure Chiyo would eventually but Sinette wouldn't be as eager since she JUST came to Eorzea, and hasn't even fully adjusted to its commons yet. 

So yeah, I think I'll pretty much disregard the main storyline IC almost entirely as well. MMOs aren't typically known for story anyway.

I used to encounter this issue a lot in WoW because I was a heavy end-game raider for a time; top of the line guild etc.  As a result I was usually decked out in some very impressive gear and it wasn't really something I could take off in case we went into a raid or I was called to sub in to one.  Unfortunately for me I also ADORED roleplay and I generally find that people look at your gear and make assumptions.

...So you know where this is going.

Black Temple gear = Killed Illidan
Sunwell Gear = Killed Kil'Jaedan

etc etc

Those who were RPing used to jump to the conclusions that my character was in the team who killed Illidan/Kiljaeden/Arthas and while technically on an ooc level this is accurate as she has the realm first; I find that it's just awkward to roleplay that achievement out.

The solution?

I actually have it that my discipline priest, the heavily armed and impressive looking creature that she is, is part of the front line strike teams that take on the most dangerous threats.  In short, she's in the military and would most likely come from something similar to the Marines or SAS.  So yes, I do RP her as being powerful, this comes with her age but I also RP her as being part of a very large team that take out certain targets.

The result of this is that she's on the frontlines against Illidan killing demons, Arthas while killing undead and so on.  I never indicate that she helped kill Arthas, instead I like to think the NPCs who tend to show up in those raids did it.  Instead I prefer to say that she took part in some very dangerous battles and while it's great she came out alive, you can be damn sure that there's no time to rest because there's always something that's going to cause a problem.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with RPing a storyline as existing providing that you temper it with logic, reason and some realism.  So long as your character continues to have vulnerability, they can still be in a powerful position.  In the case of overarching storylines like WoW/FF14 etc, it's more about the OOC players ability to rein in their own character and make them more realistic, you can't just blame the storyline for making them seem ridiculous!

That being said I do find it's good etiquette to not imply that you've killed a primal/god etc, as someone else said, "A hero did it" or indicating that you were part of a large scale war effort, is far better.


TLDR - There's nothing wrong with following the storyline and making reference to it in RP, but it has to be tempered by realism from the OOC player.  As most people can't do this very well, it's usually good etiquette to simply not mention certain aspects of the story.

(08-31-2013, 10:26 AM)Magellan Wrote: [ -> ]@ Clover: while your idea would be awesome, FC's and LS's can barely agree on storylines to run, let alone entire communities. People simply desire far too much different things from their RP for something so large scale to work. However, 2-3 guilds can, with organization, create a pretty meaningful storyline for them. But to try and force a server-wide RP isn't fair for those who don't want that particular RP in their storyline.

@OP: I maintain the single player storyline was written for gamers, not RPers. To try and force it into your RP usually flat out won't work, for reasons everyone have already illustrated.

I disagree here.  My character from the begining set out to become a hero.  That was and is the driving goal.  I maintain that I go thru these events IC and they work for me as a character to do so.  Granted some things get tricksy now and again but for the most part it -NEVER- comes up.  I never walk around saying I'm the mighty ifrit slayer or I took out Titan yada yada.  It happened to my character and I reference it with folks that I was with for those events and even then only if it's relevant to reference at all, which it rarely is.

I had a minion out for giggles the other day, the baby behemoth.  I was in the middle of a surprise RP (randomly occured and I was most happy) when someone broke character to tell me that the minion wasn't IC and I should put it away.  Initially I never regarded it as IC..it was just there.  However at being told what was and was not IC for me..I countered.  So, now it is an IC thing for me and her name is Violet.

Moral of the story here, don't tell someone else what they can or cannot do ever.  If you don't like the way they RP than go Rp elsewhere.  Thankfully I'm surrounded on a daily basis not only by a great FC full of wonderful Role Players but happen to find RP around every corner as I'm out adventuring.  I suspect I'm lucky that way.

This thread caught my eye as it's important to the way I intend to play. I'm glad to see my idea of generalising any major story plots seems to be a fairly accepted method, it's taken a lot of wonder out of my brain so I can think about other things for RP

I'm on the fence about this. I've met a lot of decent people, mostly in Warcraft, whose characters have been in pretty much every major Horde or Alliance excursion. They're extremely knowledgeable and usually have veteran, true-Faction characters so I don't have any issue seeing it.

In FFXIV I think using the Primals, because it's almost more of a game mechanic than a real set-in-the-timeline-chain-of-events it becomes a conflict at times if too many people want to claim they're involved in such situations. The major battle(s), however, might not be unlikely at all, though again, I suppose if everyone was there and got time-warped, it might be a little strange.

I don't think it's -quite- an etiquette thing so much as a matter of taste + world-related issue. If SE puts out expansions and patches and those expansions or patches include major events where a large number of people could legitimately be there, I'd find it acceptable to hear a fair number of people claiming to have been involved ICly, so long as it matches their character's goals in the game. I hesitate to throw my lot in just because I've seen such situations abused (Sir, I have a hard time believing that you, personally, overthrew the Lich King with your band of guildies...) because I find when existing people start doing that, new individuals tend to shut down their ideas at 'I'm not ah'posed tah make my characters involved with anything in teh lore' and I don't like to restrict that aspect of roleplay for anyone in any way.

At the same time, some people unintentionally go the opposite route. Again, using WoW as I almost always do as an example, the whole of the issues with Vol'jin and Garrosh and the rebellion were often treated as a series of events that hadn't happened yet while some others were treating it as an on-going thing and others yet believed it was done and over with. It leads to a conflict of interest at times when you have Kor'kron RPers trying to assault Darkspears who're treating the issue like it hasn't even happened.

General acceptance on situations like that alleviate the issue in large-scale communities, but it almost never happens because -that- for some reason is one of those situations where everyone gets hesitant about telling someone what time it is for them. I'm sure in many cases it comes down to OOC communication, and much as I can appreciate the maturity and understanding that that can create, I prefer to keep my OOC communications with another RPer as limited as possible unless it's asking how they want to handle a fight (assuming PVP isn't an option) or apologizing for a really difficult-to-understand typo.

So in short, to review, I think it's a matter of taste and, if done tastefully, contributes plenty to a good RPer's history and I, in no way, would support seeing that appear as an over-arcing, all-inclusive rule that might end with some people who misinterpret or don't give a situation/individual a chance to show their legitimacy being ostracized or corrected needlessly. It's entirely situational, taking in game events or lore events and using them in your character build.