(01-04-2014, 07:17 PM)Merri Wrote: [ -> ] (01-04-2014, 07:09 PM)Striding Oak Wrote: [ -> ]I've also been told (and though I do it I've been unable to confirm it) that our limit break does slightly more damage, because it takes the Disembowel debuff into account.
Limit breaks actually get no benefit from any buffs or debuffs, and the damage is calculated from the combined item level of the weapons of your entire party. So, a party with full Allag weapons will have a limit break that deals more damage than a party with full zenith, for example.
There's also a damage cap on limit breaks, though there's only one place this ever comes into question. The cap for Final Heaven is 30,000 damage, and it can only be reached during Twintania on Asclepius with Hygeia stacks.
Generally, it's better for a Dragoon to use a limit break though, as a Monk risks losing GL3 unless they time it right after a form rotation. Either way, it will do the same damage no matter which DD uses it, since it's a party-based formula and not player-based.
Aha, good to have that debunked. Thanks for the info.
Short and sweet: We have an awesome DRG in our coil static and wouldn't trade him for nothin'!
On the subject of PvP Liadan's right. It's 3 AP and we get a ranged attack that removes sprint when inflicted from behind the target and also has a 20% chance to inflict heavy. You get AP and skills you slowly get better and better. Making me feel DRGs are a bit of a late bloomer class.
In my experience I started with impulse rush, then Purify, getting weapon throw next. Not to mention our spineshatter dive stuns for like 2 seconds, enough to secure a kill and leaves us next to a target. Jump still does silly damage and now is quicker, and coupled with mercy stroke makes us dangerous DPS. But I will concede that it is rough to chase people down without your jumps.
I'll be honest, my coil group that I semi static with, never takes derpgoons. They aren't really that sueful.
We run 2 bards, one of each healer, two paladins, a BLM and a MNK.
*
Theres.. just no use for them outside of 'look at cool armour'. I Pvp mostly as bard or scholar - but I've never met a Dragoon who can do as much dps as me - even in higher gear.
perhaps in 2.2 they'll get the buff they deserve?
*Note: At times we do change over one bard in turns 1,3 and 4 for one of their alt classes - but usually it is another ranged like SMN.
Hmm, yes, the spear-throw-in-the-back ability. Two minute cooldown, right? I suppose it helps, especially if you have Impulse Rush to negate the directional requirement. Yes, there are solutions. And I'm happy (sort of) to hear that Monks have difficulties too, I hadn't considered the inconvenience of maintaining Greased Lightning 3. However, Monks DO offer Mantra, and the options of silencing foes, as well as removing buffs. These are party utilities that Dragoons don't have. It's difficult to convince people to take Melee over Ranged at all, unless they're among the few who've been shown the light by actual skilled Melee players, so it's only made worse by our being, objectively, the less good choice of the two.
Again, I reiterate, I love Dragoons. But I can't defend them here, that's not why I made the thread ;b Utility is our biggest weakness. All we have is the Limit Break. Is that enough? I say NO, because Monks can do it too, and even if it's slightly less damage, that difference doesn't seem like it'd be enough to make up for the utilities a Monk brings to the fight.
I believe weapon throw is 240 second cool down base and 180 at full upgrade. I just wish it had a better chance to inflict heavy.
(01-06-2014, 02:09 AM)Anstarra Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm, yes, the spear-throw-in-the-back ability. Two minute cooldown, right? I suppose it helps, especially if you have Impulse Rush to negate the directional requirement. Yes, there are solutions. And I'm happy (sort of) to hear that Monks have difficulties too, I hadn't considered the inconvenience of maintaining Greased Lightning 3. However, Monks DO offer Mantra, and the options of silencing foes, as well as removing buffs. These are party utilities that Dragoons don't have. It's difficult to convince people to take Melee over Ranged at all, unless they're among the few who've been shown the light by actual skilled Melee players, so it's only made worse by our being, objectively, the less good choice of the two.
Again, I reiterate, I love Dragoons. But I can't defend them here, that's not why I made the thread ;b Utility is our biggest weakness. All we have is the Limit Break. Is that enough? I say NO, because Monks can do it too, and even if it's slightly less damage, that difference doesn't seem like it'd be enough to make up for the utilities a Monk brings to the fight.
I just don't really see where you're coming from, tbh. Â My static specifically wanted a Dragoon for ours, and we wouldn't trade him for a Monk.
(01-06-2014, 06:42 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: [ -> ] (01-06-2014, 02:09 AM)Anstarra Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm, yes, the spear-throw-in-the-back ability. Two minute cooldown, right? I suppose it helps, especially if you have Impulse Rush to negate the directional requirement. Yes, there are solutions. And I'm happy (sort of) to hear that Monks have difficulties too, I hadn't considered the inconvenience of maintaining Greased Lightning 3. However, Monks DO offer Mantra, and the options of silencing foes, as well as removing buffs. These are party utilities that Dragoons don't have. It's difficult to convince people to take Melee over Ranged at all, unless they're among the few who've been shown the light by actual skilled Melee players, so it's only made worse by our being, objectively, the less good choice of the two.
Again, I reiterate, I love Dragoons. But I can't defend them here, that's not why I made the thread ;b Utility is our biggest weakness. All we have is the Limit Break. Is that enough? I say NO, because Monks can do it too, and even if it's slightly less damage, that difference doesn't seem like it'd be enough to make up for the utilities a Monk brings to the fight.
I just don't really see where you're coming from, tbh. Â My static specifically wanted a Dragoon for ours, and we wouldn't trade him for a Monk.
Well, your static is certainly an exception to the rule, from all I've heard ^^ Lucky Dragoon, there. But why did they want one? Just for LB?
(01-06-2014, 07:56 AM)Anstarra Wrote: [ -> ]Well, your static is certainly an exception to the rule, from all I've heard ^^ Lucky Dragoon, there. But why did they want one? Just for LB?
Most, if not all, of the utility you spoke of requires the Monk to be in a very specific stance to pull off. Â If they're not in that stance, the ability can't be used. Â It's great to have a silence, but they have to be in the correct stance to use the silence - and if they're not, they don't have time to get into that stance before the ability goes off (thanks ADS!).
Also, Monks are significantly more squishy than Dragoons are. Â If we need a brief offtank, or an add gets loose and needs to be picked up, a Monk
melts, whereas a Dragoon has the extra armor to not immediately die.
They're incredibly useful for Turn 4.
Depends on the fight. High movement fights tend to screw BLMs over really hard, but on fights where they can sit and pew pew, they're excellent. Monks are top DPS if the fight allows for GL upkeep, but DRG can do more damage in a shorter timeframe, if you assume the Monk doesn't already have GL up. DRG also has AoE options and more movement abilities. Bards only compete in DPS because they're just always shooting no matter what, and Summoners' DoTs are always ticking as well, allowing for movement or support in the meantime.
Really, it all depends on the fight. T4 absolutely requires a solid DRG or MNK, and any half decent group would call for at least 1 melee. Especially with the recent 2.1 buffs; melee jobs burn down single targets very quickly.
PvP wise Dragoons can be deadly if played. One of the reasons mentioned is because of the CDs they have which.. have to be timed well.
 I don't know all the dragoon PvP skills except for the disabling sprint one.
Anywhoooo... From what I have seen (I know the pain of melee PvP wise as I'm a warrior) If Dragoons have someone excluding tanks just.. for some reason standing still for even 2 seconds I've noticed Dragoons tear that stationary person up or that is the case in low ranking brackets. Don't dragoons also have invigorate if I recall? Sprinting shouldn't be a big deal if so especially if you have enliven(?) also but I wouldn't have a dps chasing a healer like that until a blm or smn is dead, leave the healer to CC'd or get pressured by a tank.
Also! Melee will be better once Yoshi gets off his stuff and gives us the 2.1.5 patch he spoke of.
Can't give any opinions raid wise as I don't pay much attention to my dragoon though I would personally have one for the reasons stated above by others in raids.
People who think DRG and MNK don't do ridiculously insane single-target DPS have been listening to the whiners on the official forums far, far too much.
Melee was good pre-2.1, they were just overshadowed by how ridiculously overpowered bard was, and the fact that Titan HM is a terrible fight for melee and it was the barometer practically everyone was using to determine how much damage people actually do.
Now, after 2.1, bards and summoners were hit with nerfs (bards moreso, but SMNs got hit pretty hard by the loss of Thunder), and monks and dragoons were buffed considerably. Now the damage hierarchy is looking a lot more like it should... monks should be the best DPS, because they're the highest-risk damage dealer to play. Monks go splat easily. Dragoons are close behind them, which also makes sense, because DRG rotations are crazy complex and require a lot of positional wankery.
Bards still do too much damage for how safe they are. They're the only damage dealer with potentially 100% uptime since they can move and shoot without any loss of damage whatsoever. I think, to fix bards, Square should disallow them from shooting "magical homing arrows that work like physics-defying guided missiles," (they should get the same "not facing target" error BLM gets) but undo the Internal Release and Blood for Blood nerfs, while also giving bard a few small potency increases and buffs to their utility skills to make up for the loss.
Summoners are about where they should be and so are black mages.
In my opinion, damage dealers should all perform within 10-15% of each other to prevent elitists from preferring one type over another and resulting in underutilized jobs. They're doing a pretty okay job with that (the limit break nerf was unnecessary, especially since the Duty Finder does not prioritize making sure there are no duplicate jobs), but damage dealers should also have a hierarchy. The most risky jobs to play should always perform the best when played right.
The damage hierarchy ideally should be MNK > DRG > BLM > SMN > BRD. Monks are the riskiest, bards are the safest. It's not quite there yet, but it's getting there. I'm sure we'll see further adjustment in 2.2.
(01-09-2014, 09:02 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: [ -> ]People who think DRG and MNK don't do ridiculously insane single-target DPS have been listening to the whiners on the official forums far, far too much.
Melee was good pre-2.1, they were just overshadowed by how ridiculously overpowered bard was, and the fact that Titan HM is a terrible fight for melee and it was the barometer practically everyone was using to determine how much damage people actually do.
Now, after 2.1, bards and summoners were hit with nerfs (bards moreso, but SMNs got hit pretty hard by the loss of Thunder), and monks and dragoons were buffed considerably. Now the damage hierarchy is looking a lot more like it should... monks should be the best DPS, because they're the highest-risk damage dealer to play. Monks go splat easily. Dragoons are close behind them, which also makes sense, because DRG rotations are crazy complex and require a lot of positional wankery.
Bards still do too much damage for how safe they are. They're the only damage dealer with potentially 100% uptime since they can move and shoot without any loss of damage whatsoever. I think, to fix bards, Square should disallow them from shooting "magical homing arrows that work like physics-defying guided missiles," (they should get the same "not facing target" error BLM gets) but undo the Internal Release and Blood for Blood nerfs, while also giving bard a few small potency increases and buffs to their utility skills to make up for the loss.
Summoners are about where they should be and so are black mages.
In my opinion, damage dealers should all perform within 10-15% of each other to prevent elitists from preferring one type over another and resulting in underutilized jobs. They're doing a pretty okay job with that (the limit break nerf was unnecessary, especially since the Duty Finder does not prioritize making sure there are no duplicate jobs), but damage dealers should also have a hierarchy. The most risky jobs to play should always perform the best when played right.
The damage hierarchy ideally should be MNK > DRG > BLM > SMN > BRD. Monks are the riskiest, bards are the safest. It's not quite there yet, but it's getting there. I'm sure we'll see further adjustment in 2.2.
I'll be honest - I have absolutely no idea what "risk" has to do with anything when balancing DPS. Â I've never played in a game where one class was given buffs over another because their job was "riskier." Â By that logic, tanks should be doing the most DPS of all because they are constantly - 100% of the time - in the boss's face and at the most risk for being hit by things.
While I don't see nearly as many Dragoons as I do Monks these days, the Dragoons I do see actually tend to do really good. There are of course the occasional Derpgoons who can't seem to figure out that Enemy AoEs = Dead and just stand in the middle of everything without a care in the world, but they've been the minority for me. Keep in mind I really only play End Game these days, as well.
Now, I haven't been to Coil yet (doing my first run tomorrow), but in everything else I've seen Dragoons excel. I've seen numerous Titan HM groups ask specifically for Dragoons, as well as several PuGing Coil groups. The OP is right in that they don't have as many utility skills as the other DPS classes, but they really seem to me (who has never played a Dragoon, mind) to pack more raw damage than anyone else. When it comes to protracted fights, Monks do seem to pull ahead, but not by that much.
(01-09-2014, 09:02 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: [ -> ]I think, to fix bards, Square should disallow them from shooting "magical homing arrows that work like physics-defying guided missiles," (they should get the same "not facing target" error BLM gets)
Bards already get that, actually. Most just ignore it by going into settings and clicking the "face target when firing" toggle. I specifically had to turn that setting off when I was running Titan because the auto-facing would change my dodging direction and get me killed more often than not. The only reason that works for Bards over anyone else is because all of their attacks are "Instant Cast" with range, so it's kind of the perfect storm there. I'd get into my opinion on Bards, but I don't want to derail the thread anymore than I already have.