Hydaelyn Role-Players

(02-04-2014, 11:16 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: [ -> ]Prior to 50, DRG gear is shared with PLD and WAR.  That is why it has so much more defense and magic def.  Once you hit your AF gear (and it's AF, not AF+1...AF+1 is the Myth gear  ), the gear is tailored specifically to your spec and role.  DPS shouldn't need high amounts of Defense and Magic Def, so those are far lower priority than actual stats that help a DRG do more DPS.

Prior lv 50 you can also wear haubergeons (and other parts of equipement that goes with it) that share the same particularity as AF1 but arent interesting in any case. Those are also shared with PAL and WAR. Exemple :
- Vintage haubergeon
- Mosshorn Scale Mail

Beside, not every armors PAL and WAR armors are shared with DRG. In fact, there are a lot of armors that doesn't (crafted or not, think about the Brayflox gear that cannot be wear by DRG, DRG doesn't have any armor in this dungeon).

PS : I was use to read AF1 and AF2. People have differents way to name things but I was talking about the first artefact armor you get so it wasn't a mistake. DRG is really far away from being my first class so I know about myth and such .

(02-05-2014, 01:43 AM)Ildur Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, Dragoon gear prior to 50 is somewhere between tanking classes and monks (no idea how it gets in endgame because I'm a silly non-endgamer). There are quite a few armors that have the "PLD WAR DRG" restriction, but Paladins and Warriors can always get their own unshared gear that has more protection. I think the only times they absolutely share equipment are at the beginning of the game and at level 27, where the most protective non-dungeon armor is scale armor that can be used by lancers but not pugilists or bards.

You can drop some DRG stuff with really nice stats long after the lv 27 (first exemple that come in my mind is the Kokoroon's Darkshell Mail you can drop at Cutter Cry).
Beside that, PAL and WAR still share some equipment with DRG until the lv 47.

Getting a little off-track =3 Though it is logical to assume that, as earlier gear hints, a measure of tankiness exists in the original core concept of the Dragoon class, and thus we might see in such a design model some of the initial rationalization behind the balancing act of what abilities to give Dragoons in end-game, and especially what they bring to the party.

Unfortunately, there's a problem with the 'dps who can off-tank sorta' niche; it's TOO niche. The game designers can't create encounters that would REQUIRE a certain class to complete (in theory, anyway). Maybe creative players sometimes use the minimal tankiness that DRGs have, in end-game. Tanking Titan, once geared out, is case in point.

However, such things remain an amusement, and only occasionally an actual useful benefit to a group. The simple fact is that no DPS should ever be tanking, even for a moment. In theory, that means someone has failed their job, and your role shouldn't be dependent on others' failure.

But! Part of the fun is tailoring to your specific play group. Maybe people can devise legitimate and excellent strats for end-game using Dragoons as off-tanks at critical moments. Personally I love the idea. I also love being less of a glass cannon than any other DPS. And I love playing DRG as a whole, because, well, I'm good at it, and it's a cool class, and they look cool too.

The goal of this thread remains, however, not to find quirky side benefits, nor to cite specific unique circumstances where THAT guy was good because he's a good DRG, but rather to arm oneself with blanket statements permitting DRG players to defend their class choice against elitists who don't believe in them. It's not about "Why would I bring Bob Dragoon instead of Joe Bard", it's about "Why would I bring a Dragoon instead of a Bard, period".

In end-game. Because the topic says end-game, and I'm an end-game player, and everything before it is just silly easy and doesn't require group composition or anything.

Oh, a thing I've noticed is that because of global cooldown and movement speed, as a DRG, I really don't find myself failing to always be in a position to strike. So THAT ranged advantage is minimal, at best...

(Oh crap, everything I wrote was deleted i____i)

You're right, let's go back to the main topic. DRG endgame with DRG gear (*sigh*).
It's true that I never saw any party Yeaying about an incoming DRG. I don't see any benefit that this class can add that the MNK cannot.

Plus, so far, it's the class I saw taking the more AOE (I PUG a lot, maybe I'm unlucky, but I see sooooo many DRG failing at avoiding AOE.. Or just changing target when there are adds around..) that doesn't give him a good reputation (in PUG and with me at least).

(02-05-2014, 11:01 AM)Anstarra Wrote: [ -> ]But! Part of the fun is tailoring to your specific play group. Maybe people can devise legitimate and excellent strats for end-game using Dragoons as off-tanks at critical moments. Personally I love the idea. I also love being less of a glass cannon than any other DPS. And I love playing DRG as a whole, because, well, I'm good at it, and it's a cool class, and they look cool too.

To that I say 1000000000000 YES !!! I bet many people would scream if DRG DPS was lowered a bit in exchange of a more balanced armor to be able to off-tank or manage the "oh crap" situation. In fact I think you would be able to try as a lancer since you can access many buff, flash and provoke. (And now I wanna try XD)

I'm going to throw in my own wrinkle into this mix.

Now, I should sat at the onset that I roll a Monk. And I am (in my personal opinion), a damn good one. The Monk skill set has a lot of utility and potential. While there have been classes that have out damaged me (usually BLM, though sometimes I do run across a DRG or a BRD that gets higher on the aggro meter), the point is that right now I'm at a skill level where not being the top DPS doesn't bother me too much -- the other DPS just happened to be a little bit better and that's that.

To the topic, I think that quite a few players take on the casting rolls because of their utility and their survivability. Sure, they get torn through as quickly as a tissue paper in the wash cycle, but the way the game mechanics are set up, if they fail it is entirely the mage's fault. They didn't notice the ability proccing. They didn't run out of the gaol. And nine times out of then when they do that, they die. We are also under the same constraints (and depending on the fight, we're also stepping aside and watching our melee range get swiped from under us), but 1) we actually do have a little bit more survivability than other classes (we can take one aoe to the face and survive -- not that I recommend it), and echoing what has been said 2) our dps is a constant and reliable source of damage. With the way the game is set up, we may not necessarily see the net benefit of our class. Since mobs are intended to take time to kill, it is the combined combination of multiple classes that finally falls the mob. The final result is that the contributions of each individual class (that is dealing damage) is harder to determine. In fact, it is easiest to notice a DRG or a MNK playing badly because it's taking that much longer for the thing to die...

Now, here's my wrinkle. I'm a Monk. I am damn good at it. It's my class and I love it. But I also have an appreciation for the other classes, especially if they are melee, and have been giving DRG a shot. Currently I just hit 36 and I am bored. to. tears. I'm not sure if it's this level, or if it's the class itself, but the damage output and the effort I have been putting into it just doesn't seem significant. Worse, because there is no greased lightning effect, I feel like my DRG is plodding at the lowest gear and stuck there. I see things that are coming -- Disembowel looks amazing. And there are a couple more Jumps down the pike. But, and please forgive me from saying so, I can't help but feeling like DRG is a class that is for people who don't want to bother with the mechanics of MNK and get a slightly less potent dps as a compromise.

(02-06-2014, 12:05 AM)Celeste Wrote: [ -> ]Now, here's my wrinkle. I'm a Monk. I am damn good at it. It's my class and I love it. But I also have an appreciation for the other classes, especially if they are melee, and have been giving DRG a shot. Currently I just hit 36 and I am bored. to. tears. I'm not sure if it's this level, or if it's the class itself, but the damage output and the effort I have been putting into it just doesn't seem significant. Worse, because there is no greased lightning effect, I feel like my DRG is plodding at the lowest gear and stuck there. I see things that are coming -- Disembowel looks amazing. And there are a couple more Jumps down the pike. But, and please forgive me from saying so, I can't help but feeling like DRG is a class that is for people who don't want to bother with the mechanics of MNK and get a slightly less potent dps as a compromise.

I have a friend who plays Monk as his alt (his main is warrior) and he was saying the same thing levelling his lancer for Blood for Blood. IMO, the fun part about dragoon is the rush you get from popping your full cooldown combos. Squeezing in your cooldowns between gcd and then finishing it off the combo with a guaranteed crit full thrust that hits for around 1300 damage is more exciting than anything for me. Granted that rush only lasts around 20 seconds and fighting with all your skills on cooldown is laughable in comparison, but as soon as I tasted that, everything else paled in comparison.

On the main topic of this thread, it also just so happens that those crazy burst combos that I love are one of the roles a dragoon can perform extremely well. The only real time it matters whether your dps is average or amazing is during a dps check, and most dps checks are short; making burst damage ideal for dealing with them. Monks may have higher dps during certain fights, but dragoons will always be a reliable source of damage and something for the party to fall back on if necessary thanks to foresight and keen flurry.

I don't compare myself to ranged dps and don't think anyone should. The most solid parties will have 3 ranged and 1 melee, and I'm completely fine with that since there are more ranged dps than melee dps. Melee LB is also the most useful by far, with the only comparably good LB being lv3 Healer LB. As for so many ranged only Garuda ex parties, that's only natural since the fight is hard for melee dps and it's safer for a party to count on the ranged dps not getting boned by the mechanics of the fight than it is to count on a melee dps actually being good rather than a derpgoon or monkey.

As a note, Dragoons are currently the top DPS for End Game at the moment T6+

Last I checked, about a week ago from the "World First" Guilds, the DPS hierarchy is:

DRG/SMN > BRD >MNK > BLM

Which changed from the previous standing four months ago that was:

MNK/SMN > BLM > DRG > BRD

Breaking down their numbers and ratings, they're all very close, except for BLK at the moment and that is apparently due to non-friendly mechanics.

I bring this up as a reminder to people that things don't stay the same, MMO's are constantly changing environments, for one quarter you may be the Flavor of the Month, the next you could be scraping the bottom of the barrel. Final Fantasy XIV has at least done a good job making sure that while there are obvious "Competitive/Hard Core" choices for players who view themselves as a Role versus a Class, players who view themselves as slotted into a specific Class to fill a Role aren't left in the dust.

I find it very hard to believe that bards beat out goons and monks consistently on a single target. If ever. The only way a Bard can ever do extremely well anyways is with a goon helping to buff them.

Dragoons and Monks are the top two dpsers on bosses / dummies most times. Theres a monk named Momo on Balmung that cruise controles at over 460 dps in SCOB and a friend of mine named Amal who does over 430 dps on average to bosses in SCOB as well.

Goons are fine, monks are fine. Summoners dominating as hard as they do is interesting. They might have too much utility for the output they can provide.

If a bard is out DPSing a monk or a black mage (especially with the new buff in potency given to black mages), then those are just awful players. A bard isn't centered on dealing high damage, they're built on supporting other players to increase their damage output. (Foe Requiem for BLM, Mage Ballad for MP users (other than BLM)) I also say this because my main job is bard, and I honestly cringe if I out DPS anything that isn't a bard (the exception being if I am severely over geared compared to someone else)

But that's besides the point.

Every job has their use end game. It's unfair to say "this job will always be useful while this job is good for nothing", because that will never be true. If a job was good for nothing, no one would play it. 

Now I will say that the current rep that a dragoon carries now-a-days are... bad. But don't let that stop you -- I have seen AMAZING dragoons. I heard a good saying on the actual Realm Reborn forums saying;
"A 'good' dragoon will do 99% of a Monk's DPS 100% of the time. A great dragoon will outrank or be on par with a Monk 101% of the time."

This all really depends on your skill as a dragoon -- but then again, everything is based on skill. That's my two cents on this.

I'm not sure if the potency buff will really help a BLM still in movement intensive fights like T6. I was picked up last night and I still hit ~ 240 DPS even with the potency buff.

... but I also never saw a Foe's Req even though there were two BLMs in the party >.>;

If a BRD is just dealing damage they'll probably do more DPS than a BLM who is say dealing with vines and such too. I'm still not a glass cannon as BLM T_T

If a bard isn't using Foe with not one but TWO black mages? That's a pretty good indication to boot them, in my opinion. xD

(07-11-2014, 11:26 AM)Oscare Wrote: [ -> ]If a bard isn't using Foe with not one but TWO black mages? That's a pretty good indication to boot them, in my opinion. xD

The end-game raids change that up a lot. ...A FR wouldn't be as helpful if the BLMs are running around and don't have the time/opportunity to cast. I think that's what Kage's trying to say. ...now in fights where the BLMs can sit down and make things burn/explode, I fully agree. (Unless the WHMs want love too)

Dragoons are the reigning champions of thrusting. 

We all need a bit of thrusting in our lives.

Each class is better at certain things than others, they each have their niche:
Single target melee - Monk
Single target ranged - Summoner
Aoe melee - Dragoon
Aoe ranged - Black Mage
Support/utility - Bard

And, as people have said, if a fight has intense dodging, a Black Mage's numbers will suffer horribly.

(07-10-2014, 12:52 PM)Hiro Wrote: [ -> ]I bring this up as a reminder to people that things don't stay the same, MMO's are constantly changing environments, for one quarter you may be the Flavor of the Month, the next you could be scraping the bottom of the barrel. Final Fantasy XIV has at least done a good job making sure that while there are obvious "Competitive/Hard Core" choices for players who view themselves as a Role versus a Class, players who view themselves as slotted into a specific Class to fill a Role aren't left in the dust.

Also keep in mind that a lot of players just hear "So and so is best class/rotation" and leave it at that without any exploration whatsoever.

Also, even if it is actually best class/rotation, there's execution, gear, etc. to take into account before even considering a swap, utility, etc.

Generally, if you find you're floundering, it has more to do with upping your own game than the game itself unless you're at the very bleeding edge of end-game.

This is a topic that deserves to remain dead. Please don't feed the zombies.