(09-11-2013, 05:52 AM)Rinh Hallani Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 05:01 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Generally speaking, the reason why people don't want to Heal or Tank is because those two roles have far more responsibility put on them as compared to DPS roles.  When the group wipes, people start bitching at the healer (which I can attest to after having done a Stone Quarry where the tank could only tank one mob at a time, and the DPS bitched at me for not being able to keep the tank up while trying to keep myself alive with 4 of the 6 mobs on me).  If there's a shitty DPS who can't follow kill order, the tank's job becomes a nightmare of desperately trying to get threat back - and usually failing.  Then everyone is mad at him (because, geeze, why couldn't he hold threat?!) as opposed to the real culprit - that being the DPS.

Yep, 100% this. The one thing that's put me off tanking is the "tank is god" mentality. You're expected to know the most efficient path through the dungeon, the tactics for every boss, spot a pat a mile away, hold aggro over dps who're targeting the wrong mob, bake a cherry pie whilst standing on your head, etc. It's a hell of a lot of responsibility to pile onto one role. It wouldn't be quite so bad if you were allowed to make mistakes as you learn but more often than not you get slammed in the face by a rage train.

If people want more tanks and shorter queues, they should work together as a team, share some of the responsibility and offer helpful tips to new or struggling tanks rather than shouting at them.

(09-11-2013, 06:43 AM)Rahal Wrote: It's not too bad at Lv50. BLM, DRG, MNK and BRD are all in high demand so you rarely have any issue with getting into a group as one if you ask around.

The main issue is that the average player is bad at teamwork. People tend to take on a "well it's his/her problem" mentality when it comes to taking responsibility in a group.

Let's use a patrol linking to a fight with a 4 man group of a WAR, WHM, BLM and MNK as an example. The patrol charges at the party, aggros the WHM due to healing aggro and kills him/her, resulting in a messy wipe. Whose fault is this?

1. The WAR, for picking a bad place to fight and not picking up the adds?
   
2. The WHM, for not Reposing the patrol as they got close and not running to the tank with the adds they aggro'd?
   
3. The BLM, for not using Sleep or Freeze to stop the patrol and controlling the adds in the first place?
   
4. The MNK, for fighting too close and not off tanking the patrol?
   

If you answered 5: All of the above, then you would be correct. Everyone needs to take responsibility. Rinh is completely right. People need to earn how to work together as a team and take responsibility and not only that, take initiative. I've prevented many messy wipes by being proactive with my Sleep on nearby patrols on BLM for example.

Quote:Giving each other tips and advice is another great thing. Like I didn't know that Bane from SMN or the Knockback from WHM don't break my sleep. So with that and some coordination from the WHM, we can sleep a mob that we aggro'd and punt it back to the tank to Flash/Provoke. Most tanks don't realise that Flash doesn't break sleep so there is no need to AoE with a BLM or WHM in the party. But they won't know that unless you tell them.

Quote:I always keep the following in mind in dungeons:

1. Yelling gets you nowhere. There is a person behind every character
   
2. Never assume malice when stupidity is why someone did something dumb.
   
3. Never assume stupidity when inexperience is why someone did something dumb.
   
4. Never assume inexperience when an honest mistake, lag or good old fashioned software/hardware failure is why someone did something dumb.
   
5. Always assume that there is someone completely new to every group.
   
6. Especially if they told you they have done the dungeon before.
   
7. Speed Runs are only to be done in a premade group with people you are confident in and play well with.
   
8. Wipes happen. Deal with it.
   
9. Seriously, wipes happen even to the best groups. maybe someone made a mistake or lag happened. Sometimes in a boss fight bad luck happens when it comes to mechanics or the circumstances making it impossible to avoid damage. There have been plenty of times when a wipe happened, it was nobody's fault but someone still ragequits anyway.
   
10. Take a break from the game regularly. no really, stepping away from the keyboard for about 15 mins is great for calming down after a stressful dungeon run.
    
11. Practise makes permanent. Practise with guidance makes perfect. Don't be afraid to ask other players as to how they do things, or anything at all. it's always best to look silly for a moment then to live in ignorance.
    

(09-11-2013, 07:00 PM)Oroban Wrote: Curses on the DPS queue curse, haha. I'm trying to get Titan before the servers go down for maint..half an hour in and no luck so far. I hope I can do it!

(09-11-2013, 08:46 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 07:00 PM)Oroban Wrote: Curses on the DPS queue curse, haha. I'm trying to get Titan before the servers go down for maint..half an hour in and no luck so far. I hope I can do it!

If you didn't get it tonight, send me a tell tomorrow and I'll be happy to help if you need a healer.

(09-11-2013, 08:48 PM)Oroban Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 08:46 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 07:00 PM)Oroban Wrote: Curses on the DPS queue curse, haha. I'm trying to get Titan before the servers go down for maint..half an hour in and no luck so far. I hope I can do it!

If you didn't get it tonight, send me a tell tomorrow and I'll be happy to help if you need a healer.

I didn't get it, unfortunately! I went to the restroom and came back to get the "YOU DIDN'T CLICK THE BUTTON, START OVER" message. I wanted to cry, hah. I'd love to grab you to help tomorrow! It'll probably have to be post-work though, which means 10pm est or later.

(09-11-2013, 08:59 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 08:48 PM)Oroban Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 08:46 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 07:00 PM)Oroban Wrote: Curses on the DPS queue curse, haha. I'm trying to get Titan before the servers go down for maint..half an hour in and no luck so far. I hope I can do it!

If you didn't get it tonight, send me a tell tomorrow and I'll be happy to help if you need a healer.

I didn't get it, unfortunately! I went to the restroom and came back to get the "YOU DIDN'T CLICK THE BUTTON, START OVER" message. I wanted to cry, hah. I'd love to grab you to help tomorrow! It'll probably have to be post-work though, which means 10pm est or later.

Unless a miracle happens and we down Garrosh tonight, I'll be raiding in WoW until 10pm CST anyway, so.  

(09-11-2013, 09:31 PM)Lost River Wrote: I love to tank as Lucinne.

(09-11-2013, 10:37 PM)DriftingFable Wrote: Yeah DPS ques. I typically try to do a combination of Queuing, asking in Shout and asking my LS. Sometimes I'm lucky. Sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I'm even asleep waiting for the que xD. Heck I'm still searching Brayflox for my infantry chest piece I might as well try grinding there till 40 xD.

That being said it does kind of make feel guilty the fact that I've chosen Monk out of all my other war classes to cap to 50 first when I intend to cap them all anyhow. But considering the amount of work that the tank has to deal with, maybe its for the best at this moment. DPS through all of the future dungeons then go back and learn how to tank them when I pick up PLD or WAR again. Being a fresh new tank in an unfamiliar area seems to be a stigma in game with a lot of PuGs.

Off-topic: Can I get in on that Titan smack down(assuming its Trial Titan) as the second DPS?

(09-11-2013, 03:31 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(09-11-2013, 06:43 AM)Rahal Wrote: It's not too bad at Lv50. BLM, DRG, MNK and BRD are all in high demand so you rarely have any issue with getting into a group as one if you ask around.

The main issue is that the average player is bad at teamwork. People tend to take on a "well it's his/her problem" mentality when it comes to taking responsibility in a group.

Let's use a patrol linking to a fight with a 4 man group of a WAR, WHM, BLM and MNK as an example. The patrol charges at the party, aggros the WHM due to healing aggro and kills him/her, resulting in a messy wipe. Whose fault is this?

1. The WAR, for picking a bad place to fight and not picking up the adds?
   
2. The WHM, for not Reposing the patrol as they got close and not running to the tank with the adds they aggro'd?
   
3. The BLM, for not using Sleep or Freeze to stop the patrol and controlling the adds in the first place?
   
4. The MNK, for fighting too close and not off tanking the patrol?
   

If you answered 5: All of the above, then you would be correct. Everyone needs to take responsibility. Rinh is completely right. People need to earn how to work together as a team and take responsibility and not only that, take initiative. I've prevented many messy wipes by being proactive with my Sleep on nearby patrols on BLM for example.

Disagree.  From a healing perspective, if I Repose a mob in a group, the rest immediately aggro on me.  Even if I get to the tank in time, 9 times out of 10, he won't be able to pull them off me fast enough to keep me from dying.  The best thing for me, as a healer, to do is to simply run to the other side of the tank and pray.  Even if I hit Shroud of Saints, if I'm the only person with threat on those adds (and I will be if I'm healing the tank, which I will almost certainly be doing since we're dealing with another pack), it won't matter.  They'll still come straight for me.  And because Regen is a primary mana-saving healing tool, there's an extremely high probability that I'll get threat before anyone else no matter what I do - because I can't click the HoT off another player.  They have to do that themselves, and by the time they do (assuming they even think to do so), it's too late.

So honestly, as a WHM, there's not a hell of a lot I can do to control anything in this situation, especially if the tank is already being beaten on (since I can't really stop for 3 seconds to try to get a Repose off that one of the DPS or the tank is going to break almost immediately) and risk the tank dropping.

The bulk of the blame is just basically situational awareness.  If you see a patrol approaching, the best thing to do would be to back away.  But the tanking game being as it is, it's hard to watch chat, the area around you, and do your job, so I can't completely blame the tank.

Wipes happen.