(06-06-2015, 04:36 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: Then of course you have Merlwyb against the Sahagin and her bullets are like those light gun games.

(06-06-2015, 08:20 PM)Knahli Wrote: There's also the matter of whether or not machinists will even be commonplace lore-wise. It might just be an opportunity for the WoL to take up the class without the actual circumstance of gunmen becoming even slightly more widespread in Eorzea.

Having said that, I guess that matters little if many people have already decided to roleplay it.

(06-06-2015, 10:50 PM)OttoVann Wrote: This was my assumption about machinist guns. That they are cartridge based firearms. Not blackpower musketball firing things.

They look like them too, to be honest. and it would only make sense due to their ability to fire more than once in a while.

If the firearms are cartridge based, you could...sort of reasonably assume they would have rifled barrels. Maybe its a given, hard to say.

If thats the case, cartridges + rifling, you are looking at pretty pointed and lethal ammunition that is very accurate.

Thats mostly where my dilemma stems from of looking at armor and being like...mmmm don't think it'll hold. Anything shaped like a modern rifle round, even a wadcutter, with good lead or steel cored is going to be drilling holes in a lot of stuff. I also acknowledge that rounded breastplates that are "heavy" in their armor nature should absorb a few shots - but that armor would be "heavy" in nature and nowhere near light to be sure. If it were just steel. Maybe we will find wonder-alloys (very possible if not already doable now if your character is a skilled material specialist with metals and alloys) that will be light enough to alloy some serious mobility while fighting armored. Armor strong enough to get shot and not just be useless.

(06-06-2015, 11:52 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

Quote:As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

(06-07-2015, 12:11 AM)Ryoko Wrote: I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

Quote:As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger. 



Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

(06-07-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:

(06-06-2015, 11:52 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

I think you misunderstand the point of this exercise, and my posts. It is not to say definitively how these things will play out. That of course, is silly, since this is an RP Fantasy would, and people are free to make their own decisions based on the Lore and their preferences

However, people who aren't sure how they want to treat guns, firearms, and armor, might find it useful to have some real world context, in order to help them RP.

(06-07-2015, 12:11 AM)Ryoko Wrote: I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

Quote:As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger. 



Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

(06-07-2015, 01:05 AM)OttoVann Wrote: Modern .50 calibers are lethal as fuck depending on the cartridge. Yeah .50 BMG fucks up modern lite-armor vehicles, or blows through concrete buildings - but the cartridge is fucking HUGE. It's also shooting a (usually) milled steel round, amongst other flavors .50 bmg comes in. Its got a massive amount of powder pushing that bullet to unreal amounts of force.

However even .50AE will obliterate shit coming out of a pistol, or that .50 smith and wesson has for their super revolvers - but .50 isnt just lethal because its .50. The cartridge behind and caliber is what makes it lethal.