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Fox · **06-06-2015, 07:44 PM**

(06-06-2015, 04:36 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: Then of course you have Merlwyb against the Sahagin and her bullets are like those light gun games.

Pretty much this and what Zelmanov has posted, afterall it's not like technically they don't have pistols in Eorzea currently. Just a vast majority don't have them.

[Image: ffxiv_pub_patch2.2_02.png]

This as an aside, concerning my melee characters, I only have one who will be my DRK. I'd imagine with their possibility of aether shields and what not that could be one way. But I don't know and probably won't know until the DRK are released and I know how they're going to play. Second I'd assume because machinist is going to be using pistols, that they aren't extremely accurate at long range.

Edit: I'm also considering that bullets will be black-powder, which makes them even more inaccurate. However! I won't know that either till machinist comes out. It could be entirely aetheric. Unless I've misread something as I haven't personally read too much up on machinists.

K'nahli · **06-06-2015, 08:20 PM**

There's also the matter of whether or not machinists will even be commonplace lore-wise. It might just be an opportunity for the WoL to take up the class without the actual circumstance of gunmen becoming even slightly more widespread in Eorzea.

Having said that, I guess that matters little if many people have already decided to roleplay it.

Fox · **06-06-2015, 08:28 PM**

(06-06-2015, 08:20 PM)Knahli Wrote: There's also the matter of whether or not machinists will even be commonplace lore-wise. It might just be an opportunity for the WoL to take up the class without the actual circumstance of gunmen becoming even slightly more widespread in Eorzea.

Having said that, I guess that matters little if many people have already decided to roleplay it.

I'd like to think that SE learned from the other classes, I remember reading something along the lines that they realized that pigeon-holing the classes as they did made it difficult. But as you said we won't know in any case till release.

Even then though it could still be plausible if the player character was able to piece together magitek to an extent, afterall Admiral does have her pistols. Though we won't know until the release.

V'aleera · **06-06-2015, 10:47 PM**

One shot or a few: run/jump/dodge.

Incoming hail of fire: spin weapon really fast and block them all animu style.

OttoVann · **06-06-2015, 10:50 PM**

This was my assumption about machinist guns. That they are cartridge based firearms. Not blackpower musketball firing things.

They look like them too, to be honest. and it would only make sense due to their ability to fire more than once in a while.

If the firearms are cartridge based, you could...sort of reasonably assume they would have rifled barrels. Maybe its a given, hard to say.

If thats the case, cartridges + rifling, you are looking at pretty pointed and lethal ammunition that is very accurate.

Thats mostly where my dilemma stems from of looking at armor and being like...mmmm don't think it'll hold. Anything shaped like a modern rifle round, even a wadcutter, with good lead or steel cored is going to be drilling holes in a lot of stuff. I also acknowledge that rounded breastplates that are "heavy" in their armor nature should absorb a few shots - but that armor would be "heavy" in nature and nowhere near light to be sure. If it were just steel. Maybe we will find wonder-alloys (very possible if not already doable now if your character is a skilled material specialist with metals and alloys) that will be light enough to alloy some serious mobility while fighting armored. Armor strong enough to get shot and not just be useless.

A few other things to consider, the RP gets more interesting if people ever look into armor-piercing styles ala steel bullets or tungsten/wolfram.

With all that said if every gun is just shooting balls, then most armor should take most hits from most firearms.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-06-2015, 11:00 PM**

(06-06-2015, 10:50 PM)OttoVann Wrote: This was my assumption about machinist guns. That they are cartridge based firearms. Not blackpower musketball firing things.

They look like them too, to be honest. and it would only make sense due to their ability to fire more than once in a while.

If the firearms are cartridge based, you could...sort of reasonably assume they would have rifled barrels. Maybe its a given, hard to say.

If thats the case, cartridges + rifling, you are looking at pretty pointed and lethal ammunition that is very accurate.

Thats mostly where my dilemma stems from of looking at armor and being like...mmmm don't think it'll hold. Anything shaped like a modern rifle round, even a wadcutter, with good lead or steel cored is going to be drilling holes in a lot of stuff. I also acknowledge that rounded breastplates that are "heavy" in their armor nature should absorb a few shots - but that armor would be "heavy" in nature and nowhere near light to be sure. If it were just steel. Maybe we will find wonder-alloys (very possible if not already doable now if your character is a skilled material specialist with metals and alloys) that will be light enough to alloy some serious mobility while fighting armored. Armor strong enough to get shot and not just be useless.

Steel is steel, and though heavy, can still stop rounds, even with modern guns. The russians issued steel breastplates to their shocktroopers in WW2, for example. Which could stop 9mm bullets at 10 meters, and bolt action rifles at 150.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Bib
[Image: 0rI2tqB.jpg]

The velocity of firearm rounds is by some factor a product of the length of their muzzles, and while the machinists appear to use rifled cartridge based weapons, their high caliber and relatively short barrels, imply something like pistol velocity.

Add that to the fact that this is a fantasy game, and there are stronger/lighter materials than steel, heavy plate would likely not be penetrated by it.

The intro video to 2.0 is actually a good example, the Warrior of Light took several rounds at medium range, which all ricocheted off his armor. It would likely take several shots to down someone in full plate, unless you get lucky. Each shot would either rip off parts of their armor, or deform any area that was hit. And as the armor loses its form and curve due to repeated impact, it becomes less able to deflect rounds.

I think people should RP firearms roughly similar to how they'd RP arrows, the only difference is that unlike an Arrow, a firearm tends to do damage to armor even if it doesn't penetrate. So while an archer might have to circle around for the perfect shot, the gun user can just keep blasting away until something gives.

Erik Mynhier · **06-06-2015, 11:52 PM**

Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-07-2015, 12:10 AM**

(06-06-2015, 11:52 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

I think you misunderstand the point of this exercise, and my posts. It is not to say definitively how these things will play out. That of course, is silly, since this is an RP Fantasy would, and people are free to make their own decisions based on the Lore and their preferences

However, people who aren't sure how they want to treat guns, firearms, and armor, might find it useful to have some real world context, in order to help them RP.

Marisa · **06-07-2015, 12:11 AM**

I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy.Â
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

Quote:As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger.Â

[Image: 3952777107_ab2b33a3f0.jpg]

Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-07-2015, 12:22 AM**

(06-07-2015, 12:11 AM)Ryoko Wrote: I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy.Â
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

Quote:As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger.Â

Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

similar sorts of sizes to those shot by Merlwybs pistols then? (pistol averages tended to be between .50 and .70) to which Cobalt stood up to.

TheLastCandle · **06-07-2015, 12:26 AM**

I think the most dangerous thing a non-aether using soldier clad in full plate could face would be a thaumaturge with a penchant for Thunder spells. Shocking!

Erik Mynhier · **06-07-2015, 12:26 AM**

(06-07-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-06-2015, 11:52 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

I think you misunderstand the point of this exercise, and my posts. It is not to say definitively how these things will play out. That of course, is silly, since this is an RP Fantasy would, and people are free to make their own decisions based on the Lore and their preferences

However, people who aren't sure how they want to treat guns, firearms, and armor, might find it useful to have some real world context, in order to help them RP.

Oh I did not misunderstand the topic, and I was not really commenting on your post or anyone elses. As you say...

"However, people who aren't sure how they want to treat guns, firearms, and armor, might find it useful to have some real world context, in order to help them RP."

As such I am adding the real life perspective of someone who has been military trained in the use of many fire arms, and has used them in live fire. Precision combat training for officers includes history and physics study in fire arms, reviewing in detail among other things the practical and historic cat and mouse game that is arms vs armor.

I simply offer that prespective to those wishing to understand the interaction from a rl point of view.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-07-2015, 12:32 AM**

(06-07-2015, 12:11 AM)Ryoko Wrote: I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy.Â
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

Quote:As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger.Â

Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

Except breastplates could stop rounds such as those...

The reason they werent used was because weight and expense. Steel breastplates were perfectly capable of stopping musketd as long as they were not at point blank range. You cannot really get your judgements of bullet physics from "modern fps"

OttoVann · **06-07-2015, 01:05 AM**

Modern .50 calibers are lethal as fuck depending on the cartridge. Yeah .50 BMG fucks up modern lite-armor vehicles, or blows through concrete buildings - but the cartridge is fucking HUGE. It's also shooting a (usually) milled steel round, amongst other flavors .50 bmg comes in. Its got a massive amount of powder pushing that bullet to unreal amounts of force.

However even .50AE will obliterate shit coming out of a pistol, or that .50 smith and wesson has for their super revolvers - but .50 isnt just lethal because its .50. The cartridge behind and caliber is what makes it lethal.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-07-2015, 01:19 AM**

(06-07-2015, 01:05 AM)OttoVann Wrote: Modern .50 calibers are lethal as fuck depending on the cartridge. Yeah .50 BMG fucks up modern lite-armor vehicles, or blows through concrete buildings - but the cartridge is fucking HUGE. It's also shooting a (usually) milled steel round, amongst other flavors .50 bmg comes in. Its got a massive amount of powder pushing that bullet to unreal amounts of force.

However even .50AE will obliterate shit coming out of a pistol, or that .50 smith and wesson has for their super revolvers - but .50 isnt just lethal because its .50. The cartridge behind and caliber is what makes it lethal.

Yep, just for example, a Brown Bess Musket has a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps (feet per second). That's a very optimal number by the way. Musketballs would often be too large or too small, powder charges could very, and barrels very quickly became fouled.

A 9mm pistol, for example can be around 1500 fps, plus it is a pointed, copper jacketed round. Even those could not go through the steel body armors of the day. Most modern 50 caliber sniper rifles can easily go over 3000! fps, and as Otto says, often have steel penetrating cores. They're a totally different beast.

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How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes