(12-21-2014, 12:49 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: One day, Japan will realize if that if we wanted to play women, we'd play women. I mean, it's not like men are genetically predisposed to look like men, or anything.* That's kind of why the sexual distinction exists.

*please don't kill me, tumblr

(12-22-2014, 02:30 AM)Artigan Wrote: Anyone from any culture can critique and find faults in design choices. You shouldn't assume an individual is looking at a product through an ethnocentric lens.

Not true, from Dragon Age Origins, Awakening, 2, and Inquisition the party, cast, or heroes and heroines have been varied and diverse: elderly, young, pretty, handsome, rugged, beautiful, masculine, effeminate, cute, rough, scarred, ugly, and so forth, and that goes for Protagonists and Antagonists as well. Fenris is not the entirety or an acute representation of Thedas. Stop being disingenuous and misrepresenting the series.

You certainly don't have to agree with anyone on anything, but you also shouldn't expect anyone to swallow your nonsense of "don't judge things from your personal perspective."

No one in this entire thread said: Western desires or wants are the "truest." No one here has tried opening up a Salon full of snub Persians saying how art "must" be done. Get off this ridiculous tangent. 

I can, anyone in fact, judge any product, art, or something created for public consumption and state my thoughts on such objects. If I like or dislike a product or art because it doesn't meet a standard that is fair.

No one here stated what is the correct way to "art."

Are some of you purposely putting up fallacies of red herrings, non sequiturs, and complete irrelevancies, or do you honestly think in such delusional fashions?

(12-22-2014, 05:12 AM)Presidio Wrote: Every culture and individual has their own masculine ideal. These ideals may or may not agree with each other and that's okay, they're baseless cultural notions that really don't matter in any objective sense, but they can determine how much someone enjoys an instance of media.

Personally I have found it hard to make a character in FFXIV who represents the masculine aesthetic I wish to play. In my mind, Midlander Hyur look too young and Highlander Hyur look like cavemen. I dislike the Gears of War AND FFXV masculine aesthetic simultaneously. I also really liked the redesign of Dante.

The solution? Customization options and localization. Give everyone what they want. SE needs to do this if they're going to be commercially viable in the west (and they need to be).

(12-22-2014, 04:42 AM)Clover Wrote:

(12-22-2014, 02:30 AM)Artigan Wrote: Anyone from any culture can critique and find faults in design choices. You shouldn't assume an individual is looking at a product through an ethnocentric lens.

Not true, from Dragon Age Origins, Awakening, 2, and Inquisition the party, cast, or heroes and heroines have been varied and diverse: elderly, young, pretty, handsome, rugged, beautiful, masculine, effeminate, cute, rough, scarred, ugly, and so forth, and that goes for Protagonists and Antagonists as well. Fenris is not the entirety or an acute representation of Thedas. Stop being disingenuous and misrepresenting the series.

You certainly don't have to agree with anyone on anything, but you also shouldn't expect anyone to swallow your nonsense of "don't judge things from your personal perspective."

No one in this entire thread said: Western desires or wants are the "truest." No one here has tried opening up a Salon full of snub Persians saying how art "must" be done. Get off this ridiculous tangent. 

I can, anyone in fact, judge any product, art, or something created for public consumption and state my thoughts on such objects. If I like or dislike a product or art because it doesn't meet a standard that is fair.

No one here stated what is the correct way to "art."

Are some of you purposely putting up fallacies of red herrings, non sequiturs, and complete irrelevancies, or do you honestly think in such delusional fashions?

Um, I don't appreciate the way you're trying to turn this situation around. This isn't about you judging a product but about the way you chose to do it. Let's start with the beginning: you did open this thread to mock/complain about FF15 characters, calling them names like "dolls", "effeminate", and "unrealistic". To reinforce this, you didn't speak against any of the mockery that followed, which had more unsavoury references to how real men should be. And now you are trying to argue that you have not made or provoked such obvious references, and that your words are the most innocent.

Now let's see if I can make my point across, as this is, indeed, a Western VS Eastern thing.

I don't think that FF15 characters look effeminate or unrealistic. To me, they look absolutely normal. Japanese media is full of that kind of boys, they are the norm for the beauty standard there. They look effeminate from a Western standard of what a "real man" should look like, see what I mean?
So, they're not unrealistic, for there are tons of Japanese celebrities who look like them. Example:





And this takes me to the next point: does any Dragon Age character look like them? Nope, not at all. Dragon Age might have a variety of characters, but it's a variety within the Western standards. This is why I don't personally feel that Dragon Age characters offer the mentioned variety, the same reason why you don't find variety in FF15 characters while I do.

And last but not least, it's not bad if you personally don't like them, but the mocking tone from this whole thread (from both your comments and other posters you certainly have not argued with) doesn't sound right. I'm a bit tired of people complaining or implying that Japanese male characters are "too effeminate" or "too gay", or that SE should make different males despite the fact that SE is a Japanese company, and they belong to a whole new culture where those boys fit the normal standard of attractiveness.

(I don't want to continue arguing, so I hope I made my point clear ;;;. Let's agree to disagree?)

(12-22-2014, 02:57 AM)Faye Wrote: I like my men pretty.

Give me pretty men, or give me death women.

EDIT: Seriously, though (not that the initial post wasn't serious).

"Too many" pretty boys?

That's like saying "too much money" or "too much chocolate." Not a real complaint.

(12-22-2014, 05:38 AM)Presidio Wrote: I'm just hoping the story doesn't trot out a million proper nouns, lack moral complexity, rehash familiar tropes, and revolve around a "hope and friendship will save the day" theme.

...I will probably be disappointed.

(12-21-2014, 04:55 PM)Artigan Wrote: Hairless bodies, gelled or fashionable hair styles, and wearing or displaying fine clothes or jewelry. The art work of the male cast is a line up for cat walk for some A&E reality show.

Did you read my post? I stated 1 of the reasons, not all of the reasons, and ultimately is their in an issue of not wanting to play a game full of Ken dolls?

(12-22-2014, 05:43 AM)ArmachiA Wrote:

(12-21-2014, 04:55 PM)Artigan Wrote: Hairless bodies, gelled or fashionable hair styles, and wearing or displaying fine clothes or jewelry. The art work of the male cast is a line up for cat walk for some A&E reality show.

Did you read my post? I stated 1 of the reasons, not all of the reasons, and ultimately is their in an issue of not wanting to play a game full of Ken dolls?

Just to come into this conversation: I think this is what Clover was talking about. all those thing are considered... pretty normal in Japan and not at all a clue as to whether something or someone is feminine. Asian bodies tend to be hairless, gelled hair is normal because Asian hair is textured in such a way that makes those styles easier (jealous), fine clothes and lots of jewelry is just part of the Asian aesthetic. I mean... have you seen what yoshi P wears? He's a 40-year old man, but that's the style. It's not weird over there.

Hell, one of their big popstars, Ken Hirai, is so "manly" looking they constantly question whether or not he's full Japanese.



That guy.
(Go look up his song with Namie Amuro "Grotesque" DO IT OMG)

She's trying to say it's a different aesthetic is all.