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Faye · **12-22-2014, 02:57 AM**

I like my men pretty.

Give me pretty men, or give me death women.

EDIT: Seriously, though (not that the initial post wasn't serious).

"Too many" pretty boys?

That's like saying "too much money" or "too much chocolate." Not a real complaint.

Aduu Avagnar · **12-22-2014, 03:07 AM**

(12-21-2014, 12:49 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: One day, Japan will realize if that if we wanted to play women, we'd play women. I mean, it's not like men are genetically predisposed to look like men, or anything.* That's kind of why the sexual distinction exists.

*please don't kill me, tumblr

I don't care about much of the thread, people can have their opinions, but this.... this train of thought worries me.

Clover · **12-22-2014, 04:42 AM**

(12-22-2014, 02:30 AM)Artigan Wrote: Anyone from any culture can critique and find faults in design choices. You shouldn't assume an individual is looking at a product through an ethnocentric lens.

Not true, from Dragon Age Origins, Awakening, 2, and Inquisition the party, cast, or heroes and heroines have been varied and diverse: elderly, young, pretty, handsome, rugged, beautiful, masculine, effeminate, cute, rough, scarred, ugly, and so forth, and that goes for Protagonists and Antagonists as well. Fenris is not the entirety or an acute representation of Thedas. Stop being disingenuous and misrepresenting the series.

You certainly don't have to agree with anyone on anything, but you also shouldn't expect anyone to swallow your nonsense of "don't judge things from your personal perspective."

No one in this entire thread said: Western desires or wants are the "truest." No one here has tried opening up a Salon full of snub Persians saying how art "must" be done. Get off this ridiculous tangent.Â

I can, anyone in fact, judge any product, art, or something created for public consumption and state my thoughts on such objects. If I like or dislike a product or art because it doesn't meet a standard that is fair.

No one here stated what is the correct way to "art."

Are some of you purposely putting up fallacies of red herrings, non sequiturs, and complete irrelevancies, or do you honestly think in such delusional fashions?

Um, I don't appreciate the way you're trying to turn this situation around. This isn't about you judging a product but about the way you chose to do it. Let's start with the beginning: you did open this thread to mock/complain about FF15 characters, calling them names like "dolls", "effeminate", and "unrealistic". To reinforce this, you didn't speak against any of the mockery that followed, which had more unsavoury references to how real men should be. And now you are trying to argue that you have not made or provoked such obvious references, and that your words are the most innocent.

Now let's see if I can make my point across, as this is, indeed, a Western VS Eastern thing.

I don't think that FF15 characters look effeminate or unrealistic. To me, they look absolutely normal. Japanese media is full of that kind of boys, they are the norm for the beauty standard there. They look effeminate from a Western standard of what a "real man" should look like, see what I mean?
So, they're not unrealistic, for there are tons of Japanese celebrities who look like them. Example:

[Image: cute-japanese-young-actor-kamiki-ry_nosu...e-_33_.jpg]

[Image: cute-japanese-young-actor-kamiki-ry_nosu...e-_33_.jpg]

And this takes me to the next point: does any Dragon Age character look like them? Nope, not at all. Dragon Age might have a variety of characters, but it's a variety within the Western standards. This is why I don't personally feel that Dragon Age characters offer the mentioned variety, the same reason why you don't find variety in FF15 characters while I do.

And last but not least, it's not bad if you personally don't like them, but the mocking tone from this whole thread (from both your comments and other posters you certainly have not argued with) doesn't sound right. I'm a bit tired of people complaining or implying that Japanese male characters are "too effeminate" or "too gay", or that SE should make different males despite the fact that SE is a Japanese company, and they belong to a whole new culture where those boys fit the normal standard of attractiveness.

(I don't want to continue arguing, so I hope I made my point clear ;;;. Let's agree to disagree?)

IvikBlack · **12-22-2014, 05:12 AM**

Every culture and individual has their own masculine ideal. These ideals may or may not agree with each other and that's okay, they're baseless cultural notions that really don't matter in any objective sense, but they can determine how much someone enjoys an instance of media.

Personally I have found it hard to make a character in FFXIV who represents the masculine aesthetic I wish to play. In my mind, Midlander Hyur look too young and Highlander Hyur look like cavemen. I dislike the Gears of War AND FFXV masculine aesthetic simultaneously. I also really liked the redesign of Dante.

The solution? Customization options and localization. Give everyone what they want. SE needs to do this if they're going to be commercially viable in the west (and they need to be).

Aduu Avagnar · **12-22-2014, 05:14 AM**

(12-22-2014, 05:12 AM)Presidio Wrote: Every culture and individual has their own masculine ideal. These ideals may or may not agree with each other and that's okay, they're baseless cultural notions that really don't matter in any objective sense, but they can determine how much someone enjoys an instance of media.

Personally I have found it hard to make a character in FFXIV who represents the masculine aesthetic I wish to play. In my mind, Midlander Hyur look too young and Highlander Hyur look like cavemen. I dislike the Gears of War AND FFXV masculine aesthetic simultaneously. I also really liked the redesign of Dante.

The solution? Customization options and localization. Give everyone what they want. SE needs to do this if they're going to be commercially viable in the west (and they need to be).

SE has been commercially viable in the west for years....

Artigan · **12-22-2014, 05:18 AM**

(12-22-2014, 04:42 AM)Clover Wrote:
(12-22-2014, 02:30 AM)Artigan Wrote: Anyone from any culture can critique and find faults in design choices. You shouldn't assume an individual is looking at a product through an ethnocentric lens.

Not true, from Dragon Age Origins, Awakening, 2, and Inquisition the party, cast, or heroes and heroines have been varied and diverse: elderly, young, pretty, handsome, rugged, beautiful, masculine, effeminate, cute, rough, scarred, ugly, and so forth, and that goes for Protagonists and Antagonists as well. Fenris is not the entirety or an acute representation of Thedas. Stop being disingenuous and misrepresenting the series.

You certainly don't have to agree with anyone on anything, but you also shouldn't expect anyone to swallow your nonsense of "don't judge things from your personal perspective."

No one in this entire thread said: Western desires or wants are the "truest." No one here has tried opening up a Salon full of snub Persians saying how art "must" be done. Get off this ridiculous tangent.Â

I can, anyone in fact, judge any product, art, or something created for public consumption and state my thoughts on such objects. If I like or dislike a product or art because it doesn't meet a standard that is fair.

No one here stated what is the correct way to "art."

Are some of you purposely putting up fallacies of red herrings, non sequiturs, and complete irrelevancies, or do you honestly think in such delusional fashions?

Um, I don't appreciate the way you're trying to turn this situation around. This isn't about you judging a product but about the way you chose to do it. Let's start with the beginning: you did open this thread to mock/complain about FF15 characters, calling them names like "dolls", "effeminate", and "unrealistic". To reinforce this, you didn't speak against any of the mockery that followed, which had more unsavoury references to how real men should be. And now you are trying to argue that you have not made or provoked such obvious references, and that your words are the most innocent.

Now let's see if I can make my point across, as this is, indeed, a Western VS Eastern thing.

I don't think that FF15 characters look effeminate or unrealistic. To me, they look absolutely normal. Japanese media is full of that kind of boys, they are the norm for the beauty standard there. They look effeminate from a Western standard of what a "real man" should look like, see what I mean?
So, they're not unrealistic, for there are tons of Japanese celebrities who look like them. Example:

And this takes me to the next point: does any Dragon Age character look like them? Nope, not at all. Dragon Age might have a variety of characters, but it's a variety within the Western standards. This is why I don't personally feel that Dragon Age characters offer the mentioned variety, the same reason why you don't find variety in FF15 characters while I do.

And last but not least, it's not bad if you personally don't like them, but the mocking tone from this whole thread (from both your comments and other posters you certainly have not argued with) doesn't sound right. I'm a bit tired of people complaining or implying that Japanese male characters are "too effeminate" or "too gay", or that SE should make different males despite the fact that SE is a Japanese company, and they belong to a whole new culture where those boys fit the normal standard of attractiveness.

(I don't want to continue arguing, so I hope I made my point clear ;;;. Let's agree to disagree?)

I don't have to join any bandwagon or join any group think. If you don't like someone's comment, statement, or line of thinking then take it up with them. I am not the admins, your white knight, or a thought police.

I never claimed to be innocent, once again another ridiculous tangent you want to go on to skirt away from your radical claims and delusions. No one said how art must be done nor equated how art must conform to a cultural standard. You made this make believes and non issues up.

The heroes of FF15 is a bunch of Ken dolls. Nothing is realistic about a bunch of pretty boys saving the world or fighting armies.

Are you seriously using appeals to popularity and media as a heuristic?

So what if I or anyone else mocked a game for a design choice? What is your point? Stop having a sense of humor I don't agree with?

Alright, clearly you live in a world of infomercials and reality television. You can have fun in that vacuum of West vs East.

Who exactly am I suppose to argue to meet your bar? When I meet that bar where will you move it next? I can't debate the world. I choose you because of the logical inconsistencies you rampantly display. Your seriously turning Dragon Age into a "Western" reference and now bringing your circular reasoning round once more to Eastern norms and imagined issues of people claiming what a "real man is." What is with you and turning this thread into a ethnocentric debate, making shit up, and not one of critiquing a game? I have to assume at this point you are a troll or seriously delusional.

You are calling the characters too gay and implying so, no one else did. I or anyone else saying a cast is too effeminate will leave me with this final thought: so fucking what? You can be tired all you want at these "complaints." I honestly do not care. You didn't have to throw your dog in this thread.

IvikBlack · **12-22-2014, 05:20 AM**

I think, and maybe I'm wrong, that FF13's saga seriously deminished the brand. Western RPGs generally attempt to bring SOME choice and customization to the table, I think eastern RPGs need to get more serious about that (and many are, Dragon's Dogma for instance).

Artigan · **12-22-2014, 05:21 AM**

(12-22-2014, 02:57 AM)Faye Wrote: I like my men pretty.

Give me pretty men, or give me death women.

EDIT: Seriously, though (not that the initial post wasn't serious).

"Too many" pretty boys?

That's like saying "too much money" or "too much chocolate." Not a real complaint.

Too much chocolate is bad for you and too much money turns you into a rich prick.

Aduu Avagnar · **12-22-2014, 05:30 AM**

can we lay off the personal remarks?

some people like it, some people don't.

As with all things, you can't please all people.

With this game, they are obviously appealing to the vast quantity of people that enjoy the bishounen aesthetic. and that is not a bad thing, just because it doesnt appeal to you does not mean the game itself will be terrible, that is up for gameplay to decide.

IvikBlack · **12-22-2014, 05:38 AM**

I'm just hoping the story doesn't trot out a million proper nouns, lack moral complexity, rehash familiar tropes, and revolve around a "hope and friendship will save the day" theme.

...I will probably be disappointed.

Aduu Avagnar · **12-22-2014, 05:39 AM**

(12-22-2014, 05:38 AM)Presidio Wrote: I'm just hoping the story doesn't trot out a million proper nouns, lack moral complexity, rehash familiar tropes, and revolve around a "hope and friendship will save the day" theme.

...I will probably be disappointed.

you don't like proper nouns?

IvikBlack · **12-22-2014, 05:40 AM**

I don't like it when every fifth word in the dialogue is l'Cie. Sad

ArmachiA · **12-22-2014, 05:43 AM**

(12-21-2014, 04:55 PM)Artigan Wrote: Hairless bodies, gelled or fashionable hair styles, and wearing or displaying fine clothes or jewelry. The art work of the male cast is a line up for cat walk for some A&E reality show.

Did you read my post? I stated 1 of the reasons, not all of the reasons, and ultimately is their in an issue of not wanting to play a game full of Ken dolls?

Just to come into this conversation: I think this is what Clover was talking about. all those thing are considered... pretty normal in Japan and not at all a clue as to whether something or someone is feminine. Asian bodies tend to be hairless, gelled hair is normal because Asian hair is textured in such a way that makes those styles easier (jealous), fine clothes and lots of jewelry is just part of the Asian aesthetic. I mean... have you seen what yoshi P wears? He's a 40-year old man, but that's the style. It's not weird over there.

Hell, one of their big popstars, Ken Hirai, is so "manly" looking they constantly question whether or not he's full Japanese.

[Image: 664.jpg]

That guy.
(Go look up his song with Namie Amuro "Grotesque" DO IT OMG)

She's trying to say it's a different aesthetic is all.

Kismet · **12-22-2014, 06:07 AM**

All this game has to do is be better than FF13... which is a ridiculously easy feat to achieve. Almost laughably so. In fact, I have laughed about it. Many times!

So unless Nomura hit his head really damned hard eight years ago or something, they should be fiiiiiine.

Tiergan · **12-22-2014, 06:17 AM**

(12-22-2014, 05:43 AM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(12-21-2014, 04:55 PM)Artigan Wrote: Hairless bodies, gelled or fashionable hair styles, and wearing or displaying fine clothes or jewelry. The art work of the male cast is a line up for cat walk for some A&E reality show.

Did you read my post? I stated 1 of the reasons, not all of the reasons, and ultimately is their in an issue of not wanting to play a game full of Ken dolls?

Just to come into this conversation: I think this is what Clover was talking about. all those thing are considered... pretty normal in Japan and not at all a clue as to whether something or someone is feminine. Asian bodies tend to be hairless, gelled hair is normal because Asian hair is textured in such a way that makes those styles easier (jealous), fine clothes and lots of jewelry is just part of the Asian aesthetic. I mean... have you seen what yoshi P wears? He's a 40-year old man, but that's the style. It's not weird over there.

Hell, one of their big popstars, Ken Hirai, is so "manly" looking they constantly question whether or not he's full Japanese.

That guy.
(Go look up his song with Namie Amuro "Grotesque" DO IT OMG)

She's trying to say it's a different aesthetic is all.

ArmachiA kind of nailed it here. And as an Asian, I can promise you that the males in my family could not grow chest or arm hair to save their lives. Some of them have leg hair, but not all of them. Heck - the ladies in my family have never ever had to shave their legs or arms ever. We're a pretty hairless folk. Most, if not all of the men in my family (except for the older generation) have gelled their hair in their youth (around the age of the FFXV cast). They all slowly stopped doing it as they got older and married.

A lot of stuff that would get labeled "metrosexual" (like wearing a buttload of jewelery) in the US is normal fashion in Asia. The standard 'look' for Asian guys in Asia (Asian-Americans prefer different stuff) is the slenderer body-type of the FFXV cast.

They're basically trying to reflect an ideal version of Japanese youth,

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FF15: Men or Dolls?

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