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Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Printable Version

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RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Mercer - 06-25-2015

(06-25-2015, 01:03 PM)Rinslet Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 12:55 PM)Oswin Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 11:43 AM)Kage Wrote: As far as I know, Bard's are having a horrible time because of bugs. At the very least.

Some attacks just make them unable to attack for a long period of time.

So much so that a DRG might get like 1300 DPS but a BRD will get something like 700 ish or so?

It hasn't been fixed either.

I apologize for the double post, but I would like to directly reply to Kage on what is happening with bards.

So bards, normally a highly mobile class has a lot of skills off the global cooldown and procs. The change to a cast based system has not modified these off these key abilities.

Wanderer's Minuet removes auto attack damage for a 20% buff. It looks good on paper, until you realize that 25% of Bard damage is auto attack. Ok, that is a DPS loss so far. Next, they rely on the combination of Heavy Shot proccing a auto crit Steady Shot. The problem is that with the additional cast time on Heavy Shot it takes two full global cooldowns for the Steady Shot proc to go into effect. This is an issue that Blackmage has with Fire Starter.

The other issue they have is with their two DoTs resetting the Bloodletter recast timer. Being able to weave Bloodletter + Buffs into a Bard rotation was essential. Now with the cast timer they are only able to do one or the other, limiting their ability.

All together not only do Bards loose access to 25% auto attack damage for a 20% damage buff, they also lose the ability to use key attacks. Right now it's advisable to just ignore Wanderer's Minuet completely and continue the normal bard style.
As a BRD main, that's not quite what I found. Now, mind you, I may not really be totally correct here, but what I found is that Wanderer's has its uses.

First, Bloodletter actually remains without a cast time even when Wanderer's is up. In addition, a proc'ed Steady Shot also has no cast time. Plus, with the addition of Iron Jaws, you should only ever need to use both your DOTs once for the majority of a (boss) fight.

Plus, with the addition of Empyreal Arrow and the change to Barrage (it now makes the next skill hit three times for normal damage) you can get a really impressive blast off every 60 seconds when barrage is up (I'm hitting for about 3300 at 56 with that).

So, really, Wanderer's isn't bad during boss fights if you manage yourself right. I can't say whether it's better or worse than not using it since I don't have a parser, but it feels at least as strong given a longer fight and good rotation.

It is not the fact that Steady Shot has no cast time, it's the fact that you effectively lose Steady Shot procs because of the cast time on Heavy Shot. This is a well documented issue that Blackmages have had with Firestarter before the stack was increased to two. The servers in XIV account for every 3 seconds of information at once, while your cast time is 2.5 or lower depending on speed buffs. This means that if you use Heavy Shot and it procs Steady Shot, it takes 3 seconds for the server to go "Hey, you procced!". In that time most Bards have already started casting their next Heavy Shot, effectively using two casts for a single proc. This also means that if your second Heavy Shot would have procced Steady Shot, that is now effectively lost.

With Bloodletter, it's the same deal. You can't use Bloodletter as soon as it procs, creating issues that your DoTs can continue proccing the effect for a net DPS loss. Yes, you can get big burst numbers with Wanderer's but the problem is that it comes at the cost of consistent DPS over time. Using Ephyreal Arrow ends up a net DPS loss as well, as you no longer get your crit procs for Steady Shot as well as losing out on the 25% DPS from auto attacks.

It's an issue that both BRD and MCN have with their respective cast buffs, they interfere with the mobile nature of their off cooldown abilities and procs. It's flawed and at the moment the only time it's recommended to use Wanderer's Minuet is when you are going into a heavy AoE situation. Outside of that, it's a DPS loss on a class that is already far behind the other DPS classes.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Zyrusticae - 06-25-2015

(06-25-2015, 11:39 AM)Apl_Juice Wrote: Now that ive had a chance to number crunch MCH, I would say they aren't as terrible as people seem to think. The random nature of the skills only fluctuate total DPS by about 5-8% in each of the dozen simulations I ran. At worst, a string of no procs lowers your dps by about that much. 

However. 

The skill : DPS ratio is WAY out of whack. This job is without a doubt one of the hardest jobs with the immobility of BLM, the support of bard, the tight rotation/priority of DRG, and the latency unfriendliness of Ninja. As of now, playing flawlessly is no stronger than bard if not marginally worse. Machinist isnt bad, but holy hell, they are not worth the effort. 

By the way, leave gauss off until 60; it js a dps loss until then.
5-8% variance is still a pretty significant amount, especially when you consider that the melee DPS jobs enjoy 100% consistency, though BLM and BRD have some (but not much) randomness of their own to contend with. (Never played SMN so I know nothing about them, heh.)

I think you have an odd standard for what qualifies as "bad". "Marginally worse than bard" when "bard" already qualifies as "weak DPS" is not exactly an encouraging statement. I also have yet to see a single MCH parse that even matches top BRD, so there's that.

I'm still fully convinced MCH is just plain weak, even disregarding how hard it is to play. Even though I am playing pretty much as close to perfect as I can manage (and out-DPSing everyone I meet in PUGs), the DPS I am putting out remains pathetic in light of what the other DPS jobs are capable of in the right hands.

Even at level 55 I am still putting out 400-ish DPS where I can hit the 500-range on a regular basis as a level 50 DRG with similar gear. That's pretty damning, really.

(06-25-2015, 12:42 PM)Oswin Wrote: Your naivety toward WAR damage in Heavensward is adorable.
[Image: oVkDyFl.jpg]


WAR damage output is front-loaded. Those big numbers do not translate to outrageously high sustained damage output due to the rest of their kit being kind of weak in that regard. That being said, yeah, they can do insane throughput in Deliverance now.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Melkire - 06-25-2015

(06-25-2015, 06:13 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: 5-8% variance is still a pretty significant amount, especially when you consider that the melee DPS jobs enjoy 100% consistency, though BLM and BRD have some (but not much) randomness of their own to contend with. (Never played SMN so I know nothing about them, heh.)

Just for clarity's sake, might I ask if this is or isn't considering forced GL3 loss during some fights in ARR when a boss jumps? 'cause I sure as hell don't always enjoy what I'd consider consistency.

*shakes fist at T9*

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Sophia_Grave - 06-25-2015

What are you parsing with? Last I heard, there's no parser available yet that properly tracks and adds Wildfire's damage and the second hit of Ricochet, unless ACT released something in the last day. Without it, they parse close to Bard, so seeing as Wildfire is a huge part of their rotation, they should be a fair bit stronger. Of course, they still need a buff it seems; no one's denying that. As I said, for all the work that one must put in to play this job efficiently, its really not worth it.

They still have an uncontested debuff (Dismantle/Rend Mind) and TP/MP regen, and seeing as Gauss is more often a DPS loss than it is a gain, they have the mobility to stay safe, at least until Gauss gets a buff.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Enla - 06-25-2015

After getting my 56 skill I have to take back what I said about Shroud of Saints. Assize more than fits the bill to help regain MP now. 10% doesn't seem like much, but boy does it help.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Zyrusticae - 06-25-2015

(06-25-2015, 06:48 PM)Melkire Wrote: Just for clarity's sake, might I ask if this is or isn't considering forced GL3 loss during some fights in ARR when a boss jumps? 'cause I sure as hell don't always enjoy what I'd consider consistency.

*shakes fist at T9*

That's intentional, and it is NOT random, which is what I was talking about with regards to MCH damage. You can mitigate that by knowing when the boss is going to jump and using the new skills to make the most of it.

(06-25-2015, 07:21 PM)Apl_Juice Wrote: What are you parsing with? Last I heard, there's no parser available yet that properly tracks and adds Wildfire's damage and the second hit of Ricochet, unless ACT released something in the last day. Without it, they parse close to Bard, so seeing as Wildfire is a huge part of their rotation, they should be a fair bit stronger. Of course, they still need a buff it seems; no one's denying that. As I said, for all the work that one must put in to play this job efficiently, its really not worth it.

They still have an uncontested debuff (Dismantle/Rend Mind) and TP/MP regen, and seeing as Gauss is more often a DPS loss than it is a gain, they have the mobility to stay safe, at least until Gauss gets a buff.

ACT, yes. As far as I can tell it's been tracking Wildfire properly (and I haven't unlocked Ricochet yet), but I'll double-check to make sure. Either way, Wildfire is still not a huge proportion of our damage on its own.

I'd like to see these parses where we're hitting close to Bard, though, to be honest, I don't think Bard itself is a good metric as it is a weak DPS class to begin with, as said. "Hits as hard as bard" may as well be a codeword for "hits like a wet noodle" as far as I'm concerned. (Yes, I do think bard is in need of buffs, too.)

(And how you could mention Dismantle/Rend Mind as a positive with their horribly weak effects, low duration, and long cds is entirely beyond me...)

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Sophia_Grave - 06-25-2015

The point is that they stack with any and everything and are off GCD, so it can be applied at once the moment it is needed.

Regardless, someone has to be the worst. Machinists have literally everything from buffs, debuffs, all CCs, and great burst, and mobility, so it makes sense for that to be them. Even then, they only go marginally worse/even with Bards. Even a full team of Bards, when played well, can meet any DPS check.

As for ACT, look on Reddit, its documented by the guy who does the ffxiv plugin for ACT that it isn't tracked properly.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Zyrusticae - 06-26-2015

Well, of course someone has to be the worst. The point is that 'the worst' could be a matter of tiny degrees and even be in flux depending on the player in question. When it's widely agreed upon what 'the worst' is, that's when we have a problem.

Also, it seems ACT is indeed counting Wildfire correctly, though I don't know if it was the most recent update that made it work or a previous one:
Show Content

If you're curious, I hit 467 DPS that run, at level 56 and i133. The other MCH had Gauss Barrel on the entire time and... well, they didn't do so well (337 DPS).

467 DPS at 56 and i133... I do more than that on a regular basis on my level 50 i120 DRG. Grumble, grumble....

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Kasumi Gakunin - 06-26-2015

(06-25-2015, 01:07 PM)Septha Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 03:22 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote: Bad Points

* The healing is Diurnal Sect isn’t as strong as WHM which means I often have to work a lot harder to keep people up and can’t dps. I don’t really mind but to some people in the community this is seen as a bad thing.

Nocturnal Stance gives the same healing power as a WHM, but you're getting shields instead of a regen. Being now level 58, I don't like to compare AST to any of the other healers now as they pretty much have their own way of functioning. If you want to dps as an AST, learn how to effectively heal as one. Same goes with the other healers. 

I tried running MCH for 5 levels to get the feel of it, but I'm literally feeling like I'm doing absolutely nothing at all even after properly using the ammo system. It just feels...so slow and flimsy. Is this a real gun or a potato gun?
I don't have any interest in dpsing. My priority goes healing -> buffing -> dps as should all good healers. Also I heal fine thanks, just not a lot of room to dps in the new dungeons compared to the old one's, especially in the vault.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - McBeefâ„¢ - 06-26-2015

(06-26-2015, 03:41 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 01:07 PM)Septha Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 03:22 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote: Bad Points

* The healing is Diurnal Sect isn’t as strong as WHM which means I often have to work a lot harder to keep people up and can’t dps. I don’t really mind but to some people in the community this is seen as a bad thing.

Nocturnal Stance gives the same healing power as a WHM, but you're getting shields instead of a regen. Being now level 58, I don't like to compare AST to any of the other healers now as they pretty much have their own way of functioning. If you want to dps as an AST, learn how to effectively heal as one. Same goes with the other healers. 

I tried running MCH for 5 levels to get the feel of it, but I'm literally feeling like I'm doing absolutely nothing at all even after properly using the ammo system. It just feels...so slow and flimsy. Is this a real gun or a potato gun?
I don't have any interest in dpsing. My priority goes healing -> buffing -> dps as should all good healers. Also I heal fine thanks, just not a lot of room to dps in the new dungeons compared to the old one's, especially in the vault.

All good healers have to DPS.

Not DPSing is a luxury you get in old content, but in my opinion good healers do current content, and in order to clear anything besides 4 man dungeons or old raids/primals, healers have to dps.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Kasumi Gakunin - 06-26-2015

(06-26-2015, 03:48 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 03:41 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 01:07 PM)Septha Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 03:22 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote: Bad Points

* The healing is Diurnal Sect isn’t as strong as WHM which means I often have to work a lot harder to keep people up and can’t dps. I don’t really mind but to some people in the community this is seen as a bad thing.

Nocturnal Stance gives the same healing power as a WHM, but you're getting shields instead of a regen. Being now level 58, I don't like to compare AST to any of the other healers now as they pretty much have their own way of functioning. If you want to dps as an AST, learn how to effectively heal as one. Same goes with the other healers. 

I tried running MCH for 5 levels to get the feel of it, but I'm literally feeling like I'm doing absolutely nothing at all even after properly using the ammo system. It just feels...so slow and flimsy. Is this a real gun or a potato gun?
I don't have any interest in dpsing. My priority goes healing -> buffing -> dps as should all good healers. Also I heal fine thanks, just not a lot of room to dps in the new dungeons compared to the old one's, especially in the vault.

All good healers have to DPS.

Not DPSing is a luxury you get in old content, but in my opinion good healers do current content, and in order to clear anything besides 4 man dungeons or old raids/primals, healers have to dps.

You know what. I'm going to stop posting. I can't be bothered arguing with you guys. Have fun.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - McBeefâ„¢ - 06-26-2015

(06-26-2015, 04:00 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 03:48 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 03:41 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 01:07 PM)Septha Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 03:22 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote: Bad Points

* The healing is Diurnal Sect isn’t as strong as WHM which means I often have to work a lot harder to keep people up and can’t dps. I don’t really mind but to some people in the community this is seen as a bad thing.

Nocturnal Stance gives the same healing power as a WHM, but you're getting shields instead of a regen. Being now level 58, I don't like to compare AST to any of the other healers now as they pretty much have their own way of functioning. If you want to dps as an AST, learn how to effectively heal as one. Same goes with the other healers. 

I tried running MCH for 5 levels to get the feel of it, but I'm literally feeling like I'm doing absolutely nothing at all even after properly using the ammo system. It just feels...so slow and flimsy. Is this a real gun or a potato gun?
I don't have any interest in dpsing. My priority goes healing -> buffing -> dps as should all good healers. Also I heal fine thanks, just not a lot of room to dps in the new dungeons compared to the old one's, especially in the vault.

All good healers have to DPS.

Not DPSing is a luxury you get in old content, but in my opinion good healers do current content, and in order to clear anything besides 4 man dungeons or old raids/primals, healers have to dps.

You know what. I'm going to stop posting. I can't be bothered arguing with you guys. Have fun.

It's unfortunate that you equate disagreement with attack.

Perhaps it is best if you do stop posting, if disagreement affects you so.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Kellach Woods - 06-26-2015

So far, I've found that any boss doing magic damage is better tanked with anything but a WAR. Vault's last boss almost wrecked me and there was nothing I realistically could have done beyond having better gear.

Other than Vengeance, every cooldown that diminishes damage in requires physical attacks. You can heal yourself, but either you get more potent EH at the cost of max vitality or you get less potent EH but get the vit to soak some of these big hits.

WAR's still very viable, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather swap to PLD or DRK for anything that does magic damage.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Meena - 06-26-2015

(06-26-2015, 04:08 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 04:00 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 03:48 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 03:41 AM)Poison and Lace Wrote:
(06-25-2015, 01:07 PM)Septha Wrote: Nocturnal Stance gives the same healing power as a WHM, but you're getting shields instead of a regen. Being now level 58, I don't like to compare AST to any of the other healers now as they pretty much have their own way of functioning. If you want to dps as an AST, learn how to effectively heal as one. Same goes with the other healers. 

I tried running MCH for 5 levels to get the feel of it, but I'm literally feeling like I'm doing absolutely nothing at all even after properly using the ammo system. It just feels...so slow and flimsy. Is this a real gun or a potato gun?
I don't have any interest in dpsing. My priority goes healing -> buffing -> dps as should all good healers. Also I heal fine thanks, just not a lot of room to dps in the new dungeons compared to the old one's, especially in the vault.

All good healers have to DPS.

Not DPSing is a luxury you get in old content, but in my opinion good healers do current content, and in order to clear anything besides 4 man dungeons or old raids/primals, healers have to dps.

You know what. I'm going to stop posting. I can't be bothered arguing with you guys. Have fun.

It's unfortunate that you equate disagreement with attack.

Perhaps it is best if you do stop posting, if disagreement affects you so.
Actually - I agree with her. The new dungeons (at 60, the dugneons from 51-59 are piss easy) are rather hard hitting and as a scholar i;ve found there to be times where I don't even have time to throw up a dot if the DPS is slow or if the tank doesnt blow cooldowns at the right points. yes, Dpsing should be dont as a healer but but if it means you aren't confident healing your group and keeping them up.

Especially when some monsters basic attacks are doing 1000-1500 damage, and there are twelve of them.
Perhaps this will change with gear, perhaps not. We will see in the coming patches.

RE: Let's talk about 'dem Heavensward jobs - Gegenji - 06-26-2015

I usually try to DPS while healing, but my first and foremost concern is keeping peoples' health up. The only time I'm deadset on getting my DoTs and such up is right at the pull - where I hopefully have an Adlo and Stoneskin on the tank to cover for me while I do it.

That's not to say I haven't forgotten to heal while DPSing. I was in one of the new level 60 dungeons and the tank dropped because I was trying to help DPS the adds. I could defend myself by stating that our DRG was tunneling and I felt I needed to cover for him... but I really wasn't sticking to the role I'm there for. Helping DPS is a bonus to help mitigate future healing (by making things die sooner), but it really wasn't what I was supposed to be doing.

Then again, it's hard to tell when you can DPS and when you can't sometimes - especially with PuGs. You never know when a DPS or tank is going to space and get hit by a big attack, or ignore other mechanics like adds or "you have to click this thing to live" stuff. My first fight with Bismarck, I was literally doing both the shields and one of the spear-guns because people were ignoring them. But that's another story entirely.

Your job as a healer is to heal - and being able to add to DPS should be secondary. So, the idea that AST might not be able to add enough DPS themselves doesn't bother me (unless I'm soloing). They can keep people up, and their cards either aid in that or - when put on the right people - boost their damage to make up for it (either through straight damage boost or skillspeed increase). I get a feeling that putting 10% more damage on that Monk goes a long way to mitigating the AST's own DPS capability.