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+--- Thread: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs (/showthread.php?tid=8388)
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Yssen - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 05:38 PM)Edgar Wrote:(09-23-2014, 01:45 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Going by that logic means that all player characters are also members of the Scions.
You do realize that out of all the members of the Scions/Crystal Braves, Minfillia and your character are the only ones with the Echo?
Statements like these make me question whether or not some of you have even played the Main Scenario in its entirety (Or rather, 2.0-2.3).
That is not so. The other NPC adventurers also possess the Echo, as do some of the Scions, and ALL of the Archons. That is why they are Archons. Minfillia says so when you are first introduced to them. It is further stated in the quest text for some of the side quests that start in the waking sands. That is also why there are other adventurers wreathed in light in some of the cut scenes with Hydealyn, they are other Echo users.
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Unnamed Mercenary - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 05:38 PM)Edgar Wrote:(09-23-2014, 01:45 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Going by that logic means that all player characters are also members of the Scions.
You do realize that out of all the members of the Scions/Crystal Braves, Minfillia and your character are the only ones with the Echo?
Statements like these make me question whether or not some of you have even played the Main Scenario in its entirety (Or rather, 2.0-2.3).
No....there are others as well. All the important Scions have the Echo, but not those with the Echo are Scions. There was an Echo-awakening that happened in 1.0, but it would be impossible to round up them all. (No more easy than trying to round up every single English-speaking person in the world)
I can pull from two very easy sources for this. You -the character- before you join the Scions.Â
In 1.0, there were many cutscenes with the Echo before you even know that Minfilia existed, let alone the Circle of Knowing/Scions.Â
In 2.0, it would reason that there are other adventurers out there that have the Echo that are unaware of it. (Since SE seems to have gone away from using the Echo as a plot point beyond simply resisting being tempered and a flashback here and there)
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Zyrusticae - 09-23-2014
Getting back on the subject of Warriors of Light (yes, I know we said those were our final words, but hear me out), I must acquiesce.
Can we agree on this?
Warriors of Light must
A. Have the Echo, and
B. Must be fighting against the Darkness in some way, be it directly in combat, or indirectly through support of those in combat or philosophically or any other number of methods of 'war'.
Someone who merely possesses the Echo but otherwise lives a normal life (ala the aforementioned priest) would not be referred to as a Warrior of Light, but someone like Minfilia who directly opposes the forces of Darkness would qualify (by Hydaelyn's own standards), though she does not fight on the front lines and isn't referred to by this title directly.
As such, I would assume (dangerous word, I know) that most player characters with the Echo would be Warriors of Light by default. There are a few (emphasis on a few) players who would prefer to play NPC-type characters who may possess the Echo but otherwise live normal lives, but they are largely the exception that proves the rule.
I am now actually waffling on whether or not T'rahnu herself would actually qualify as a Warrior of Light, as she does not directly oppose the forces of Darkness, but rather happens upon them by mere circumstance. It may be that I would have to refer to her as a Warrior of Light* with an asterisk (same as I would for Minfilia).
Either way, I'll continue to use Warrior of Light as shorthand for someone with the Echo, as it's simply how I've been using it for quite some time now.
References:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/114311-Explaining-the-Term-Warriors-of-Light
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/194454-Semantics-The-Echo-vs.-Warriors-of-Light?p=2460329&viewfull=1#post2460329 (yes, I asked on the official forums)
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Kage - 09-23-2014
I argued that earlier this weekend.
In the 2.0 story line end the Ascian only appears to Minfillis and you the PC while you are at waking sands with others from 1.0 group but only those two see because of Echo
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Yssen - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 06:05 PM)Kage Wrote: I argued that earlier this weekend.I think that is two unrelated bits. He does one thing because of the Echo, and chooses to only reveal himself to you and Minifilia.
In the 2.0 story line end the Ascian only appears to Minfillis and you the PC while you are at waking sands with others from 1.0 group but only those two see because of Echo
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - ArmachiA - 09-23-2014
I can't agree that the Warriors of Light have the Echo, because theres no proof that the people who Loiusoix sent forward in time all had the Echo. We can't assume every. single. person. on the battlefield had it. There's just no proof and, following the logical path, it doesn't seem like it's true.
The lore of the game seems to tack on the title of Warrior of Light to the Adventurer in the MSQ at the end of the quest, but that's not what the original term was for.
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Unnamed Mercenary - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 06:33 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I can't agree that the Warriors of Light have the Echo, because theres no proof that the people who Loiusoix sent forward in time all had the Echo. We can't assume every. single. person. on the battlefield had it. There's just no proof and, following the logical path, it doesn't seem like it's true.This.
The lore of the game seems to tack on the title of Warrior of Light to the Adventurer in the MSQ at the end of the quest, but that's not what the original term was for.
(09-23-2014, 06:26 PM)Yssen Wrote:Also this.(09-23-2014, 06:05 PM)Kage Wrote: I argued that earlier this weekend.I think that is two unrelated bits. He does one thing because of the Echo, and chooses to only reveal himself to you and Minifilia.
In the 2.0 story line end the Ascian only appears to Minfillis and you the PC while you are at waking sands with others from 1.0 group but only those two see because of Echo
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Zyrusticae - 09-23-2014
I think part of the confusion is that all the non-blessed NPCs were already fleeing from the area as soon as Bahamut started attacking. Moreover, there's no evidence that any non-blessed characters were teleported from the area. Most notably, as the Admiral's story tells it, only members of the Foreign Levy disappeared from the field (and by extension, her mind).
I will defer to Anonymoose's explanation of the turn of events here, as he's far more familiar with the lore than most players (and may even be on par with the actual writers & translators). All those who were teleported forward through time were assumed to be PCs, who are all assumed to have the Echo, and thus make up all of the Warriors of Light who came from the past. Any NPC adventurer said to have the Echo/be a Warrior of Light is a stand-in for another PC (since they can't have actual PCs in their place, of course) to help give the player some perspective on events.
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Kage - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 06:26 PM)Yssen Wrote:Explain thanks.(09-23-2014, 06:05 PM)Kage Wrote: I argued that earlier this weekend.I think that is two unrelated bits. He does one thing because of the Echo, and chooses to only reveal himself to you and Minifilia.
In the 2.0 story line end the Ascian only appears to Minfillis and you the PC while you are at waking sands with others from 1.0 group but only those two see because of Echo
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Unnamed Mercenary - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 07:07 PM)Kage Wrote:(09-23-2014, 06:26 PM)Yssen Wrote:Explain thanks.(09-23-2014, 06:05 PM)Kage Wrote: I argued that earlier this weekend.I think that is two unrelated bits. He does one thing because of the Echo, and chooses to only reveal himself to you and Minifilia.
In the 2.0 story line end the Ascian only appears to Minfillis and you the PC while you are at waking sands with others from 1.0 group but only those two see because of Echo
Go to an inn room. Main scenerio Quests, Seventh Astral Era.
The Gifted, Custscene #2.
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - ArmachiA - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 06:50 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I think part of the confusion is that all the non-blessed NPCs were already fleeing from the area as soon as Bahamut started attacking. Moreover, there's no evidence that any non-blessed characters were teleported from the area. Most notably, as the Admiral's story tells it, only members of the Foreign Levy disappeared from the field (and by extension, her mind).
I will defer to Anonymoose's explanation of the turn of events here, as he's far more familiar with the lore than most players (and may even be on par with the actual writers & translators). All those who were teleported forward through time were assumed to be PCs, who are all assumed to have the Echo, and thus make up all of the Warriors of Light who came from the past. Any NPC adventurer said to have the Echo/be a Warrior of Light is a stand-in for another PC (since they can't have actual PCs in their place, of course) to help give the player some perspective on events.
THere's literally no proof of this.
If you look at the Derplander storyline (Thep laceholder for all PCs in 1.0) his friends, who also were transported through time according to the beginning of the story, do not have the Echo. In fact, the cutscene can be taken as they don't even know he has the Echo or they rely on his Echo powers in order to pick the cool missions
http://youtu.be/mbcqHdY-UYE?t=6m15s
"Looks who's returned from his reverie."
"So kind of you to join us again."
*Derplander stares*
"Well, don't keep us in suspense."
Can be taken either way. What is absolutely looks like it neither of them have the echo. Yet the Miqote is fighting as a Bard and the Elezen as a BLM at Carteneau. AND shows them in the 2.0 cutscene skipping ahead with Derplander.
There is NO PROOF everyone on that battlefield had the Echo. None.
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Kage - 09-23-2014
You're saying then that the archons like Urianger (I haven't actually gone back I went to see the dialogue cause I was in ST) have lesser control over the gift or it doesn't explicitly say that only Minfilia and you were able to see because they had Echo which you -need- to be able to see him at all.
Non-Echo gifted were able to see Lahabrea.
I am amused that so many call him derplander.
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - ArmachiA - 09-23-2014
I'm so used to it from 1.0 I just can't call him anything else XD
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Zyrusticae - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 07:23 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: There is NO PROOF everyone on that battlefield had the Echo. None.You're definitely confused here.
They all have the Echo. Every one of them. Some manifest them sooner or later and/or more or less overtly than others but every one of the Derplander's companions are blessed by Hydaelyn. They are all stand-ins for player characters, and thus possess all the traits common to player characters.
It may be best to take this conversation to the official lore forums in hopes that posters more knowledgeable than I can make clarifications on the matter, but I thought this was pretty clear.
(And while I'm at it, I am tickled that, over a year after the release of the original cinematic, we apparently aren't standing on common ground for this.)
RE: "Lore-friendly" or not Jobs - Unnamed Mercenary - 09-23-2014
(09-23-2014, 07:25 PM)Kage Wrote: You're saying then that the archons like Urianger (I haven't actually gone back I went to see the dialogue cause I was in ST) have lesser control over the gift or it doesn't explicitly say that only Minfilia and you were able to see because they had Echo which you -need- to be able to see him at all.
Non-Echo gifted were able to see Lahabrea.
I am amused that so many call him derplander.
Yes. All the Archons have the Echo (like Yda and Papalymo), but not all of them could see White Ascian Guy. I don't know if it's because he can pick and choose, or simply because Minfilia and Derplander were better at it.