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Oli! · **09-01-2015, 01:25 PM**

(09-01-2015, 12:12 PM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 11:46 AM)Oli! Wrote: The idea that "we don't know" comes from the fact that just as we have evidence that can make your point, we also have evidence that makes a counterpoint:

-- Houses are the ones that stake territory outside of Ishgard.

-- They hire as they see fit, and also hire foreigners. A promise of citizenship for service is not mentioned.
Ishgard defended the Western Highlands with its knights. That is explicitly stated. Not knights and adventurers, not knights and mercenaries. Just knights. This includes the gatewardens.

To my knowledge, no outsider has ever become an Ishgardian knight without first becoming a subject of Ishgard.

Are you in the possession of any evidence that Ishgard has knighted individuals outside the nation without requiring that individual's loyalty be sworn to the nation beforehand?

To answer your other question: Ishgard closed its doors fifteen years before the Calamity when Nidhogg returned and razed the hamlet of Ferndale to the ground. That equates to roughly 20 years before ARR/HW.

We have nothing that states fact in either direction, hence this argument. We could in fact view the point you made in its opposite light, because of a lack of evidence. If Ishgard is reluctant to rely on outside help for anything, why allow someone to become a subject, and then a knight, in the first place? We wind up with a paradox; Ishgard is Xenophobic, so they won't simply grant citizenship for nothing. If they're self-reliant, would they accept someone's offer to do work for them? If not, then what?

Interestingly, our arguments intertwine here. Unless people can become citizens for nothing (which isn't very xenophobic), then Ishgard must accept help with certain things. Where would this lead us? If it leads us to Knights, it also leads us to hires.

If we were to pull the Main Story Quest into this (which is supposed to be a rare occurrence in the first place), it's worth noting that despite all the good you do for the nation, you're never given citizenship. Only a permit to be there.

As for the first bit, I haven't come across that specific wording; do you know where it was so I can look for it? That doesn't mean I don't trust it, I just want to see.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 01:49 PM**

(09-01-2015, 01:25 PM)Oli! Wrote: We have nothing that states fact in either direction, hence this argument. We could in fact view the point you made in its opposite light, because of a lack of evidence. If Ishgard is reluctant to rely on outside help for anything, why allow someone to become a subject, and then a knight, in the first place? We wind up with a paradox; Ishgard is Xenophobic, so they won't simply grant citizenship for nothing. If they're self-reliant, would they accept someone's offer to do work for them? If not, then what?

Xenophobia does not preclude socialization, integration, or immigration. It is simply a general term to describe the negative attitude one holds toward the "other". Logically, this attitude can be overcome by the "other", in whole or in part, by assimilating into the xenophobic entity.

Perhaps I was not clear in earlier examples: Ishgardians deeply resent "adventurers" and sellswords. If you present an Ishgardian with an outsider who just wants to do some work for some pay before moving on, and an outsider who deeply reveres the wisdom and power of Halone the Fury and who wishes to be a part of the great nation She created, the reaction to each shall likely be different.

The Garlean Lucia is one example of this.

Quote:If we were to pull the Main Story Quest into this (which is supposed to be a rare occurrence in the first place), it's worth noting that despite all the good you do for the nation, you're never given citizenship. Only a permit to be there.

You're also never made a knight or recognized as a servant of Ishgard. The WoL is consistently recognized as an outsider assisting the nation.

Quote:As for the first bit, I haven't come across that specific wording; do you know where it was so I can look for it? That doesn't mean I don't trust it, I just want to see

Quote:It seems we have been assigned the area near Camp Riversmeet, Sounsyy. Lest you are unaware, the camp was one of many our knights were forced to abandon when we withdrew from the Coerthas western highlandsâ€”one of many sacrifices made in the wake of the Calamity.

From post #80

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 02:08 PM**

(09-01-2015, 01:49 PM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 01:25 PM)Oli! Wrote: We have nothing that states fact in either direction, hence this argument. We could in fact view the point you made in its opposite light, because of a lack of evidence. If Ishgard is reluctant to rely on outside help for anything, why allow someone to become a subject, and then a knight, in the first place? We wind up with a paradox; Ishgard is Xenophobic, so they won't simply grant citizenship for nothing. If they're self-reliant, would they accept someone's offer to do work for them? If not, then what?
Xenophobia does not preclude socialization, integration, or immigration. It is simply a general term to describe the negative attitude one holds toward the "other". Logically, this attitude can be overcome by the "other", in whole or in part, by assimilating into the xenophobic entity.

Perhaps I was not clear in earlier examples: Ishgardians deeply resent "adventurers" and sellswords. If you present an Ishgardian with an outsider who just wants to do some work for some pay before moving on, and an outsider who deeply reveres the wisdom and power of Halone the Fury and who wishes to be a part of the great nation She created, the reaction to each shall likely be different.

The Garlean Lucia is one example of this.

Quote:If we were to pull the Main Story Quest into this (which is supposed to be a rare occurrence in the first place), it's worth noting that despite all the good you do for the nation, you're never given citizenship. Only a permit to be there.
You're also never made a knight or recognized as a servant of Ishgard. The WoL is consistently recognized as an outsider assisting the nation.

Quote:As for the first bit, I haven't come across that specific wording; do you know where it was so I can look for it? That doesn't mean I don't trust it, I just want to see

Quote:It seems we have been assigned the area near Camp Riversmeet, Sounsyy. Lest you are unaware, the camp was one of many our knights were forced to abandon when we withdrew from the Coerthas western highlandsâ€”one of many sacrifices made in the wake of the Calamity.
From post #80

That last quote still seems to be an assumption. "Our knights," whose knights? House Knights? Temple Knights? Aetheryte Protection Knights (are they they're own thing? Do we know if they were or weren't their own force? This thought just occurred to me and I'm not sure)? It seems a little vague to definitively point.

Lucia was not known to be a Garlean when she arrived. In fact, the only person that knows that is the Warrior of Light and Aymeric, who kept her under him as a personal decision. Seeing as he is also demonstrated to be progressive, this paints itself as the rarest of rare scenarios, as do most things within the MSQ. It's also worth noting that she merely looks like a tall hyur, and likely would not have raised any eyebrows if she were merely seen out on the street.

It seems we agree regarding the WoL's place in Ishgard. Despite all you do for them, including basically saving their entire nation, you're never really given any rights other than the right to exist within the city. That's a pretty high bar to set.

Where does the line between Adventurers and Working Wanderers stand? Is this a hard and fast rule? Would a Working Wanderer with no knowledge or respect for Halone be given work? What about an Adventurer or sell-sword that's completely pious?

At this point, I'm really just trying to show that neither side is definite, and we can assume in circles forever. That's really all that's left to do, since we're missing vast swaths of information.

As far as I can rationalize, my conclusion is this: Impossible? Never. I didn't even think that form the start. Provable as definitively true or false, given what we have? Not at all. Are there roadblocks? Absolutely, there are roadblocks to almost any concept. Are they solid, impenetrable blocks? Not at all.

But I'm repeating myself at this point, so I guess I'll phone it in here.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 02:23 PM**

(09-01-2015, 02:08 PM)Oli! Wrote: That last quote still seems to be an assumption. "Our knights," whose knights?

The speaker is Artoirel, and given that the context is his giving a summary to the WoL about the history of the Western Highlands he is likely referring to Ishgardian knights in general.

Quote:Lucia was not known to be a Garlean when she arrived.

So you concede that Ishgard has an established history of allowing outsiders a path to citizenship? Even if they believed she was just a Hyur, she was not born in Ishgard.

Quote:Where does the line between Adventurers and Working Wanderers stand? Is this a hard and fast rule? Would a Working Wanderer with no knowledge or respect for Halone be given work? What about an Adventurer or sell-sword that's completely pious?

Ishgardians, particularly those in Coerthas, demonstrate an extreme distaste for adventurers meddling in Ishgardian affairs. How an adventurer may get into their better graces is subjective, but adherence to the Ishgardian belief system is likely one such avenue, as they use the term "unbeliever" to refer to outsiders as well.

Quote:At this point, I'm really just trying to show that neither side is definite.

We don't know anything and we never will. Something something David Hume something something billiards.

This doesn't change the fact that there are several compelling reasons to believe those gatewardens are Ishgardian, and no compelling reasons not to.

Zelmanov · **09-01-2015, 06:09 PM**

Oh, in terms of last names:Â

This really depends on what you wish your origin to be. Â Elezen are known for their HUGE emphasis on family lineage and heritage, if you have a traceable family, take a lore accurate last name.

Same with Hyur, you have an established family line (not necessarily noble) take a lore accurate last name (try to avoid doman last names, IE anything japanese.)

HOWEVER, if you wish to be an orphan of unknown origin.(instantly puts you in the baseborn category), your last name can be more of a title than anything.

Estinien, Azure Dragoon, is an orphan of Ferndale and for either reasons of him not knowing his parents or choosing to shirk his heritage entirely, he is now known as Estinien Wyrmblood (Edgy, to the max)Â

My ASSUMPTION is that since that last name is not at all honh honh honh frenchy french name, it is a title/nom de guerre/moniker born from being the Azure Dragoon and not indeed his last name

This is MUCH in the same fashion as others such as Joye of the 9 faces in the MCH class or Haurchefant of the Silver Fuller (since he is a bastard son)

This is not at all uncommon and falls in line with classic Medieval naming conventions, last names as we know them are VERY VERY recent. Only go 500 years back and you have Leonardo da Vinci, his last name isn't Da Vinci, that's where he is from. He is "That specific Leonardo that comes from Vinci, don't confuse him with Leonardo da Firenze or Leonardo da Venezia). There is a reason why Aragorn introduces himself as Aragorn son of Arathorn.Â

Last names really only belonged to nobility and when last names became mandatory for the sake of government, most took on the name of their occupation or lineage, which is why we have last names like Baker, Smith, Johnson and also why we can have many people named smith and not be related at all until far enough back.

So last names in Ishgard can be pretty free form, especially for baseborn/orphans. Just stay away from the big names, such as the noble houses.

We do NOT know the last names of any of the previous Azure Dragoons, or notable dragoons, except for maybe possibly Kain Highwind, who is only a dragoon of legend (may not exist) and the minion makes no mention of Highwind being his last name (it is just assumed because well, its freaking Kain Highwind)

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