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Aduu Avagnar · **10-08-2014, 07:40 PM**

(10-08-2014, 07:37 PM)Hiro Wrote:
(10-08-2014, 09:45 AM)Kage Wrote: A keen edge however, can only take you so far.

If we're not going with the fact that Lalafell must be able to hold their own physically to continuously keep up with their Hyur and Roegadyn counterparts in the Yellowjackets, the Blades, the Sultansworn... then it means that a -lot- of Lalafell are just able to fight at better standards. Their skill level in terms of combat knowhow and such would have to be, in average, at higher level than their larger counterparts.

We're applying the laws of physics, reasonably so, to a world in which we don't know what the laws are.

This sort of sums up my thoughts entirely. The world within Final Fantasy is NOT our world. Everything we know to be true and reasonable may not apply in entirety in ARR especially with aether and other magical variants being as shrouded and undefined as they currently are. Those who can harness aether, like the concept behind 'chi', 'chakra', and other "inner" energies may in fact be utilizing it subconsciously to enhance their physical capabilities.

The combat and various class training missions we see in this game already disproves any sort of actual physical limits we should be adhering to. From simple menuvers in combat to more mobile actions, are we really trying to quantify what one race is capable of compared to another? I mean the Marauder storyline itself features plenty of races, and I guarantee some of the "tests" in that storyline are certainly less tied to their skill and more to their physical aptitude.

For those of us that enjoy combat RP, then yes, it is important to us to know the physical capabilities of the different races.

Warren Castille · **10-08-2014, 08:06 PM**

My issue with the chimps argument: Look at a chimp's actual anatomy. Longer limbs, they move differently, they're "man" shaped but don't behave like a man in really any way.

Now, sure, it's possible that lalafell are ALSO just different but equally powerful, but that doesn't sit well with me for some reason. Lalafell already have the advantage of being "agile" (why we adhere to that part of the bio and not any of the other ones is beyond me) but if they're also equally strong... Well, lalafell are just a simply superior race. There'd be no reason for them to be on good terms with anyone, and going back to the earliest days of opening tradecraft routes, it would have been easier for them to just take by force.

That's not what happened, so we have to figure there's a reason for that. It doesn't make a ton of sense for the tiny, speedy race to also be on par for strength with the bigger, implied-slower ones (nobody else gets called "agile").

Tabletop has ruined me.

Zyrusticae · **10-08-2014, 08:31 PM**

(10-08-2014, 07:29 PM)GloryRhodes Wrote: Ok, let's talk about CHIMPS.
[snip]

We talked about this before, in the last thread. Two problems with it:

Chimpanzees have completely different body proportions from Lalafells, and
Chimpanzees lack our fine motor control, meaning if Lalafells were built similarly, they wouldn't be capable of doing things like weaving.

There's also a theory that part of their strength comes from the way their brains are structured, particularly in regards to preventing self-harm. Our brains will restrain us from performing activities to our fullest capacity in order to prevent us from damaging our own limbs. Chimpanzees may possess less 'restraint' in this regard, allowing them to put out more force but at the cost of increased risk of muscle strain.

At any rate... yeah, I don't think we should be looking to chimpanzees for explanations about Lalafell body strength. Wink

Aduu Avagnar · **10-08-2014, 08:49 PM**

(10-08-2014, 08:06 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: There'd be no reason for them to be on good terms with anyone, and going back to the earliest days of opening tradecraft routes, it would have been easier for them to just take by force.

so lilties from Crystal Chronicles? Tongue

Bumo · **10-08-2014, 10:52 PM**

The question of, "Can a Lalafell be as strong as a Roe?" is dependent on the Lalafell and the Roe you're comparing. The strongest Lalafell might not be able to physically best the strongest Roegadyn, but a strong Lalafell could probably stand toe-to-toe with an average Roegadyn. (Assuming an average Roe already has crazy strength)

I only skimmed the thread (sorry!) so I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned, but there are little people, people with dwarfism, who bodybuild and are capable of some pretty impressive feats. Bodybuilders like Mighty Mike or Jason Owen can bench over 300 lbs. Vince Brasco stands at 4' tall and can bench 285. As someone who RPs a physically strong Lalafell, these were people I looked at to get a good measure of what was possible. The potential is there to have strong Lalafells without assuming 'fantasy' or 'anime' physics.

Tiergan · **10-09-2014, 02:26 PM**

This thread has gotten long and I'm admittedly missing a lot of it now, I'm positive I'm probably just repeating what people have already said several times in the thread, but as a miqo'te player, I always accepted that Tiergan at his physical peak would not ever be as powerful as elezens, highlander, roegadyn at their physical peak. They're simply much bigger and if bulked up to their apex, they could just have way more mass than he ever could achieve.

By the same token, I always subconsciously felt that a lala at their physical peak -- if we ignore every factor like agility/intellect/etc and just focus entirely on strength -- wouldn't be as powerful as certain midders, highlanders, roes, and elezens at their physical peak. Especially roegadyn. The idea that a lala could be equally as powerful as all the other races in terms of raw strength alone, kind of admittedly makes things a little boring. Tiergan being smaller and less physically imposing makes combat much more interesting when I RP him facing off against someone bigger and heavier.

THAT SAID, not every single opponent we face in RP is at their absolute max physical prime. Like Bumo said, you can have a mix-up of strength levels in fights and this could very easily explain something like the very phyiscally powerful lala-miner twins that were capable of picking up and tossing out 'weak' or 'average' midders on their arses. It would also explain the Pugalist lalas (coupled with other factors like their speed/chakra/etc), and all the lala guards.

It would stand to reason that lala-guards would be training and working out enough to have the strength necessary to do their job and anyone they simply can't out-muscle, they out-speed.

Hiro · **10-09-2014, 03:22 PM**

(10-08-2014, 07:40 PM)Nako Wrote:
(10-08-2014, 07:37 PM)Hiro Wrote:
(10-08-2014, 09:45 AM)Kage Wrote: A keen edge however, can only take you so far.

If we're not going with the fact that Lalafell must be able to hold their own physically to continuously keep up with their Hyur and Roegadyn counterparts in the Yellowjackets, the Blades, the Sultansworn... then it means that a -lot- of Lalafell are just able to fight at better standards. Their skill level in terms of combat knowhow and such would have to be, in average, at higher level than their larger counterparts.

We're applying the laws of physics, reasonably so, to a world in which we don't know what the laws are.

This sort of sums up my thoughts entirely. The world within Final Fantasy is NOT our world. Everything we know to be true and reasonable may not apply in entirety in ARR especially with aether and other magical variants being as shrouded and undefined as they currently are. Those who can harness aether, like the concept behind 'chi', 'chakra', and other "inner" energies may in fact be utilizing it subconsciously to enhance their physical capabilities.

The combat and various class training missions we see in this game already disproves any sort of actual physical limits we should be adhering to. From simple menuvers in combat to more mobile actions, are we really trying to quantify what one race is capable of compared to another? I mean the Marauder storyline itself features plenty of races, and I guarantee some of the "tests" in that storyline are certainly less tied to their skill and more to their physical aptitude.
For those of us that enjoy combat RP, then yes, it is important to us to know the physical capabilities of the different races.

I think you've missed my point.

As far as combat RP goes, it seems safe to assume that a Lalafell is capable of doing the same thing any other race is, some way, some how, whether it be purely on their physical merits or some sort of (pretty much) undefined reasoning. Basically what I mean is that I don't see how requiring facts in a game where combat maneuvers and skills are wildly unrealistic in the first place, beyond the simple bit that, it could be.

The only way this changes is with a predefined system outlining the various racial merits and mins and maxes. That being said, the game does provide a character sheet with statistics and attributes, and as a baseline none of the Races which can arguably be used to gauge their various merits to a degree.

http://www.ffxivguild.com/ffxiv-a-realm-...ats-guide/

Roegadyn:

Sea Wolves STR 22
Hellsguard STR 20

Hyur:

Highlander STR 23
Midlander STR 21

Elezen:

Wildwood STR 19
Duskwight STR 20

Mi'Qote:

Seekers of the Sun STR 21
Keepers of the Moon STR 18

Lalafell:

Plainsfolk STR 18
Dunesfolk STR 17

Just going by this chart though puts Highlanders at the top in what I assume is the average score for all Highlanders .

Taking an average STR between all the races (including sub-race scores) it works out to 19.9 at first level.

If you take an average of the races between their sub-races the average changes toÂ 20.1 at first level.

That said, how would you quantify a point disparity? Keeping in mind that at level 50 you can throw 30 points across the board. This isn't really proving anything but it's food for thought for those who /care/ that much about character sheets as the game does provide one.

Warren Castille · **10-09-2014, 03:25 PM**

Using in-game stats is hard only because game balance has to get taken into account. You can't really expect it to fill the lore gaps while dealing with game mechanics. I mean, think about it: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?

Hiro · **10-09-2014, 03:26 PM**

Sort of, but in game character sheets have often been used to reflect physical traits and merits, its only an alternative view point. Also... my computer hates me and I quote spammed by accident >>

For Pathfinder for instance, a first level character is someone who is Heroic, which means heroes get more special things like teleportation, etc. Otherwise, at creation if you utilized base stats (in other games with more hardline statistical rulings) that was what was considered the Racial averages. If you applied that logic, again only keeping in mind the stats and finding some relation to level regarding growth or outstanding abilities, with first level sheets that lack equipment modification (as listed in the link in my post) you could very well use it as a gauge. It's easy to throw in other things to disregard "in game" mechanics but there are reasons why the stats are the way they are. End game they don't really affect that much as the largest gap is 5 points which doesn't grow very much at all.

Kage · **10-09-2014, 03:43 PM**

(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?

They need to go to an aetheryte, they can't just teleport to somewhere willy nilly.

People are very easily disturbed from the teleport cast. Any sign of movement by the user is almost guaranteed to disrupt it. Getting hit by someone is probably getting them dragged along or the cast is aborted.

Of course I've actually never seen the RP done this way but I've rolled with it.

Warren Castille · **10-09-2014, 05:16 PM**

(10-09-2014, 03:43 PM)Kage Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?
They need to go to an aetheryte, they can't just teleport to somewhere willy nilly.

People are very easily disturbed from the teleport cast. Any sign of movement by the user is almost guaranteed to disrupt it. Getting hit by someone is probably getting them dragged along or the cast is aborted.

Of course I've actually never seen the RP done this way but I've rolled with it.

I'm arguing for the sake of semantics. A level 1 lalafell has a strength near-comparable to that of a Highlander. They can also teleport at will to a homepoint. It's not really sound to bar one instance of gameplay mechanic as unreasonable while insisting another one is fine A-Okay terrific.

Not saying YOU'RE saying this, but yeah. If we're allowing game mechanics to supervise what's "realistic" to the game, then no one is ever in any danger of being kidnapped or held against their will.

Hiro · **10-09-2014, 05:30 PM**

(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Using in-game stats is hard only because game balance has to get taken into account. You can't really expect it to fill the lore gaps while dealing with game mechanics. I mean, think about it: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?

(10-09-2014, 05:16 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:43 PM)Kage Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?
They need to go to an aetheryte, they can't just teleport to somewhere willy nilly.

People are very easily disturbed from the teleport cast. Any sign of movement by the user is almost guaranteed to disrupt it. Getting hit by someone is probably getting them dragged along or the cast is aborted.

Of course I've actually never seen the RP done this way but I've rolled with it.

I'm arguing for the sake of semantics. A level 1 lalafell has a strength near-comparable to that of a Highlander. They can also teleport at will to a homepoint. It's not really sound to bar one instance of gameplay mechanic as unreasonable while insisting another one is fine A-Okay terrific.

Not saying YOU'RE saying this, but yeah. If we're allowing game mechanics to supervise what's "realistic" to the game, then no one is ever in any danger of being kidnapped or held against their will.

The difference therin is, at fresh start a L1 Sheet is a base sheet. No teleportation, etc. I get the argument however it seems apparent that the racial stats are set in a flavor that indicates them beyond simple gameplay mechanics, after all they support all the player bases predispositions as to who is inherently better at what, and without the 30 point gain in attributes produce very little influence on end game balance which suggests that if all they were there for was end game balance they would be scaled in larger factors than the miniscule percentiles they are. The fact that there isn't a MAJOR difference between the various stats suggests (in my eyes) that all the races are capable of similar feats on an average and while height wise aren't equals do not DOMINATE (which is what some of the conversations leans toward based solely on our external knowledge of physique) physically or mentally (or spiritually I guess).

Warren Castille · **10-09-2014, 05:37 PM**

(10-09-2014, 05:30 PM)Hiro Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Using in-game stats is hard only because game balance has to get taken into account. You can't really expect it to fill the lore gaps while dealing with game mechanics. I mean, think about it: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?

(10-09-2014, 05:16 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:43 PM)Kage Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?
They need to go to an aetheryte, they can't just teleport to somewhere willy nilly.

People are very easily disturbed from the teleport cast. Any sign of movement by the user is almost guaranteed to disrupt it. Getting hit by someone is probably getting them dragged along or the cast is aborted.

Of course I've actually never seen the RP done this way but I've rolled with it.

I'm arguing for the sake of semantics. A level 1 lalafell has a strength near-comparable to that of a Highlander. They can also teleport at will to a homepoint. It's not really sound to bar one instance of gameplay mechanic as unreasonable while insisting another one is fine A-Okay terrific.

Not saying YOU'RE saying this, but yeah. If we're allowing game mechanics to supervise what's "realistic" to the game, then no one is ever in any danger of being kidnapped or held against their will.

The difference therin is, at fresh start a L1 Sheet is a base sheet. No teleportation, etc. I get the argument however it seems apparent that the racial stats are set in a flavor that indicates them beyond simple gameplay mechanics, after all they support all the player bases predispositions as to who is inherently better at what, and without the 30 point gain in attributes produce very little influence on end game balance which suggests that if all they were there for was end game balance they would be scaled in larger factors than the miniscule percentiles they are. The fact that there isn't a MAJOR difference between the various stats suggests (in my eyes) that all the races are capable of similar feats on an average and while height wise aren't equals do not DOMINATE (which is what some of the conversations leans toward based solely on our external knowledge of physique) physically or mentally (or spiritually I guess).

To bring up FFXI for the third time today (on a roll!):

People who played tarutaru and then played melee DPS bitched to HIGH HEAVEN that they lost significant chunks of stat and, for all intents and purposes, were completely inferior to every other race.

I don't blame SE for adapting.

Hiro · **10-09-2014, 05:47 PM**

(10-09-2014, 05:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 05:30 PM)Hiro Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Using in-game stats is hard only because game balance has to get taken into account. You can't really expect it to fill the lore gaps while dealing with game mechanics. I mean, think about it: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?

(10-09-2014, 05:16 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:43 PM)Kage Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 03:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: How on earth does ANYONE get kidnapped when everyone has the ability to teleport freely?
They need to go to an aetheryte, they can't just teleport to somewhere willy nilly.

People are very easily disturbed from the teleport cast. Any sign of movement by the user is almost guaranteed to disrupt it. Getting hit by someone is probably getting them dragged along or the cast is aborted.

Of course I've actually never seen the RP done this way but I've rolled with it.

I'm arguing for the sake of semantics. A level 1 lalafell has a strength near-comparable to that of a Highlander. They can also teleport at will to a homepoint. It's not really sound to bar one instance of gameplay mechanic as unreasonable while insisting another one is fine A-Okay terrific.

Not saying YOU'RE saying this, but yeah. If we're allowing game mechanics to supervise what's "realistic" to the game, then no one is ever in any danger of being kidnapped or held against their will.

The difference therin is, at fresh start a L1 Sheet is a base sheet. No teleportation, etc. I get the argument however it seems apparent that the racial stats are set in a flavor that indicates them beyond simple gameplay mechanics, after all they support all the player bases predispositions as to who is inherently better at what, and without the 30 point gain in attributes produce very little influence on end game balance which suggests that if all they were there for was end game balance they would be scaled in larger factors than the miniscule percentiles they are. The fact that there isn't a MAJOR difference between the various stats suggests (in my eyes) that all the races are capable of similar feats on an average and while height wise aren't equals do not DOMINATE (which is what some of the conversations leans toward based solely on our external knowledge of physique) physically or mentally (or spiritually I guess).

To bring up FFXI for the third time today (on a roll!):

People who played tarutaru and then played melee DPS bitched to HIGH HEAVEN that they lost significant chunks of stat and, for all intents and purposes, were completely inferior to every other race.

I don't blame SE for adapting.

Totally agree there, but there are far less allusions towards Lalafell assumed physical disparities as well. Either being vague about it to annoy us (roleplayers) or intentionally creating a world where races are relatively equal in ability, I'd chalk both options up to adapting.

Gaspard · **10-09-2014, 05:53 PM**

Well at this point we've crossed so many qualifying thresholds that I think the eventual consensus is this;

We cannot determine Lalafell strength with 100 percent certainty
The Camps on this are split, since people credit/discredit provided materials on their personal notions of realism/comedy value
Lalafell Physiology contradicts anything we've learned from evolutionary theories and locomotion.

Therefore ; both sides are right. You can either try to force this race into the realms of our 'physics', which yes, would make them incapable of summoning such strengths, but at the same time you'd pretty much also have to deny their existence on physics department because their overall physiology makes no sense by 'Real World standards'.

Or

You stand by the notion that Final Fantasy isn't meant to be a Real World Physics reflecting game, and is meant as a fantasy roleplaying game where unrealistic feats are the norm.

If the issue at hand is about 'Roleplaying sensibilities' in regards to fights, then really, you'll have this argument with 'every' Lalafell player with a different opinion, and he wont be wrong as neither will you. There'll simply be a discrepancy between the RP world you perceive and they Perceive. There's obviously no common ground to be found here. You want your roleplay to adhere to RL Physics to deliver a degree of realism, whereas some players will simply go with the notion of 'It's a final fantasy game, liberties with physics are the norm', at which point they're not wrong either, and probably 'closer' to the actual RP scenery then the person is trying to import real life physics into the roleplay setting.

I mean, if we really go with RL physics, you'd have to, in the same take, discredit the existence of alot of Garlean Technology, Ships, weaponry, armor, fighting styles and so on, because they literally make no sense when it comes to RL physics.Â

Considering you will never fight the 'concept' of a Lalafell ingame, but an individually created character, it will be either decided through dice-rolls anyway pertaining to the unique traits/stats of the Lalafell in question or through free form text-combat. So technically, even if people came to the consensus of 'Lalafells in general are not as strong as (insert comparing race here), you can still face a player going (Well my Lalafell can). Any decision here wont give you leeway or 'argument merit' once faced with that situation.

So, Tl;dr

If you're looking to play in a RL physics sound environment, you'll have to stay away from Lalafells in general. Because in Real Life Physics, Evolutionary principles and so on, they make absolutely no sense.

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